Why is western comics art so static compared to manga?

[MonsterCrit]

Manga is black and white. Comics are colour. That limitation alone forces you to use creative artstyles. Compare the artwork of marvel's Savage Sword of Conan comics (those sweet black and white ones) to their colour comtemporaries produced by Marvel..

Then you have to remember that all manga is more or less independent of each other. Artists have distinct artstyles and each artist is consistent. I.e you know the difference in art between Akira (DBZ) and ODa (One Piece). But within their own works. you will se a lot of recycling. Akira only seems to be able to draw 12 different faces and 6 body types. Junji Ito, has an even smaller range of face and body types (no shortage of body horror though).

Add to this that the magazine companies like HSonen jump, like to have a bit opf visual diversity in each magazine they print so they like to encourage differences in style.

Western on the other hand. They pretty much try to followa standard. They want that when punisher gets drawn in an X-men comic , he looks more or less as he does in the Dardevil comic.


FYI. I switched from Western to Manga years ago because at least in Manga you can follow an entire MFing narrative arc while only buying one damned comic.. I do not have to by 10 issues of Bleach to understand something going on in Naruto.

 

[PapaGreg096]

Just compare these two action scenes

Spoiler: Hawkeye offing a bunch of mooks in Old Man Logan

Spoiler: Genos and Sonic fighting in One Punch Man

I really can't come up with a good explanation for this. Compared to manga, western comics art in action scenes always tends to lose out, since they're more like a chain of individual paintings than a succession of frames that connect naturally into each other. Do you guys have any explanations or hypotheses for this?

I don't know I think both are good in their own way, while the Genos vs Sonic fight has more motion the Hawkeye fight feels more methodical and layed out which means each action has weight to it and you actually get a sense of planning. Its like comparing burgers to ramen the two are very different with their own strengths and weakness

Spoiler

Also I know a lot of comics that do the manga motion thing but they tend to be more stylized in compared to the more realistic art most comics have.

And here is a video that shows the strengths of more static fight scenes

 

[somonels]

At least western comics color their work.

And draw backgrounds instead of cheap ink lines, or if super fancy, curves if not left entirely blank.

 

[09philj]

Different ways of looking at the world, basically. Western comics tend to show freeze frames. Manga tends to try to show things moving in the boundaries of a single frame, with whoosh lines and things. Now these each approaches have their own benefits and drawbacks. Freeze frame images help display a lot more of the detail in a scene. On the other hand, it can leave things looking stiff if you're not taking good care to make sure every element is in the right place. Manga style art can convey motion easily, but if you try to apply your techniques to every moving element it just looks like a mess of scribbles.

FYI. I switched from Western to Manga years ago because at least in Manga you can follow an entire MFing narrative arc while only buying one damned comic.. I do not have to by 10 issues of Bleach to understand something going on in Naruto.

This is basically the same reason I'm only interested in indie comics.

 

[Pseudonym]

Are you joking with those examples?

The first one shows a coherent sequence. It's hardly the greatest thing I've ever seen, but I can clearly tell what's going on and how it all fits together.

The second one shows what looks like someone performing the apex of a pole vault in front of a blurry fucking mess half covered with what I assume are "swoosh" lines.

Western comics may well be static compared to Japanese ones, I wouldn't know, but those examples are not making your case whatsoever.

Amen. All I see in that second picture are lines and more lines obscuring somebody who is apparently drawn twice over himself. At least the person dodging is visible. Also, those lines drawn willy nilly around, half of them don't even correspond to any movement in the picture.

I also don't think the first pictures are that static. None of those poses can actually be sustained for any lenght of time or be attained without some movement first. Look at the fouth picture, for example. It's a guy halfway through kicking in a door. It requires quite a lot of momentum to actually get that done and the door won't suddenly stop in midair either. Movement is pretty directly implied in that picture.

Looking at it a bit better, the girl (I think it's a girl) dodging the punching guy in the Japanese picture seems to be the focus of the picture. His movement seems purposefully blurry because this is partly from here perspective and she can't keep up and is surprised and overwhelmed by his speed. So I don't even think it is the speed itself being portrayed there, but the fact that the punching guy is too fast to keep up with.

 

[PapaGreg096]

snip

No thats a man

 

[Wrex Brogan]

...I'm gonna say 'style'.

 

[MonsterCrit]

Different ways of looking at the world, basically. Western comics tend to show freeze frames. Manga tends to try to show things moving in the boundaries of a single frame, with whoosh lines and things. Now these each approaches have their own benefits and drawbacks. Freeze frame images help display a lot more of the detail in a scene. On the other hand, it can leave things looking stiff if you're not taking good care to make sure every element is in the right place. Manga style art can convey motion easily, but if you try to apply your techniques to every moving element it just looks like a mess of scribbles.

FYI. I switched from Western to Manga years ago because at least in Manga you can follow an entire MFing narrative arc while only buying one damned comic.. I do not have to by 10 issues of Bleach to understand something going on in Naruto.

This is basically the same reason I'm only interested in indie comics.

True that . at least i'd say that if there weren't a ton of manga that do the still frame thing as well. Junji Ito for example again.

I suppose if I looke back. Western comics have always been trying to ape some style or the other. Plus the writers and artists are more constrained. I guess it's simply that Western comics, the artists typically have to please the same editors over and over so you will notice that any comics overseen by a particular editor will share alot of the same styles.

MAnga, editors have just as much elbow but they tend to speak after, not before the fact.

 

[PapaGreg096]

Different ways of looking at the world, basically. Western comics tend to show freeze frames. Manga tends to try to show things moving in the boundaries of a single frame, with whoosh lines and things. Now these each approaches have their own benefits and drawbacks. Freeze frame images help display a lot more of the detail in a scene. On the other hand, it can leave things looking stiff if you're not taking good care to make sure every element is in the right place. Manga style art can convey motion easily, but if you try to apply your techniques to every moving element it just looks like a mess of scribbles.

FYI. I switched from Western to Manga years ago because at least in Manga you can follow an entire MFing narrative arc while only buying one damned comic.. I do not have to by 10 issues of Bleach to understand something going on in Naruto.

This is basically the same reason I'm only interested in indie comics.

True that . at least i'd say that if there weren't a ton of manga that do the still frame thing as well. Junji Ito for example again.

I suppose if I looke back. Western comics have always been trying to ape some style or the other. Plus the writers and artists are more constrained. I guess it's simply that Western comics, the artists typically have to please the same editors over and over so you will notice that any comics overseen by a particular editor will share alot of the same styles.

MAnga, editors have just as much elbow but they tend to speak after, not before the fact.

You should check out some Image comics, I highly recommend reading Chew

 

[Ravenbom]

Well, it depends on who you're reading. Speed lines are pretty typical for a Flash comic, no matter the artist/writer. Not uncommon in Superman when he's flying or in any of the several other flying superheroes like Invincible or Iron Man.
A lot of it depends on perspective though.

Take a different medium. Star Trek was revolutionary in it's inception because Gene Roddenberry was VERY adamant that the engines in Star Trek were so far beyond us that they wouldn't have contrails coming out the back of it's engines to show movement like old fashioned sci-fi.
Because of this, most of the shots of the Enterprise in the original series (and later series) would be of the ship moving towards or away from the camera in order to show movement.

So, to show movement in comics while flying towards or away from the frame POV, often times western comics use speed lines because otherwise flying is just holding a static pose. It's why it doesn't translate well to film.


But, depending on the comic, for instance, Thor, she (and the former Thor, he) don't actually fly. He typically spins his hammer and throws it while holding onto it. That spin is almost always a speed line blur. And his "flying" is usually full of action blurs as well.


If you read sci fi comics, like the kind that Moebius draws, usually he does the old fashioned sci-fi contrails to show motion. But other artists will leave it static, like other people mentioned, to and leave it to the colorist to show motion.


I would like to point out that in the Old Man Logan comic where OP shows Hawkeye killing people, Hawkeye does have speed lines on him in nearly every instance, they're just very subtle. It's not actually a static image, but I know what he's talking about.

 

[Saelune]

Cause western comics are in color.

At least western comics color their work.

At least western comics color their work.

And draw backgrounds instead of cheap ink lines, or if super fancy, curves if not left entirely blank.

Despite the snark, this is I feel something worth considering. By default western comics are usually colored, while the default for manga isnt.

Of the two examples, the western one looks like less of a pain to color in, but may also be drawn with the intent to color. I'd imagine knowing coloring is not involved, you would not care to draw in a way to ease an unused process.

Ofcourse, this could be a chicken and egg scenario, where it is unclear which caused what, did the style just develop in ways that made coloring easier/harder, or did an intent to color/not color influence the style?

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

You seem to parading that second example as a paragon of art, but for the life of me I can't tell whats going on. At least two of those motion arcs are completely unrelated to anything going on in the panel, and I'm not entirely sure the other two are doing a great job. And the hell is the jumpy guy doing? Looks like he's doing some sort of backflip over punchy dude...except the blur on his knee suggests his legs are moving down. Has he been hit and this is him flying back?
Sorry but I think this question really boils down to "Hey so why do I happen to prefer manga over western comics?"

 

[Silvanus]

That manga scene successfully conveys a sense of speed and motion, but it also rather makes it unclear what exactly is going on. That Marvel page is more static but more clear. Depends on what you prefer.

 

[Scarim Coral]

I'm just going to throw this out there but maybe that "zoom in" sorta lines in that One Punch Man example (the big panel) is a factor? It kinda give a blur like motion.

 

[Bad Jim]

The reason why the manga panel shows so much motion is because it features Speed-o'-Sound Sonic, who, believe it or not, is very fast. So he can zip about all over the place in a fight. Hawkeye, though clearly fast enough to beat the average thug, is not notably fast in comparison to other characters and does not move fast enough to justify a panel full of speed blurs.

 

[hermes]

While I am not going to sit here and say ALL mange and ALL western comics respond to some stylistic choices, those particular authors do call into attention something that is most prevalent in many comics of their ink. In shounen manga, they take a lot of effort into portraying flow and movement, while on the western comic scene they take more effort in individual panels. That is why more western comics look better in a single frame than most manga, and they barely use resources like motion lines or distorted characters... because it breaks from the idea that every panel/frame has to be like a picture. On the other hand, thinking in terms of sequences instead of panels make the action seem more fluid (for example, I am sure not many people, the artist included, noticed that the goon changes sides between panels 1 and 2, and the protagonist switches stances between panels 2 and 3, without any indication that he changed the flow)

One Punch Man art is great, but it can only be seemingly appreciated in a page or a sequence of pages. A single panel is likely to be confusing because you can't judge movement without reference.

Of course, that depends on the artist. A lot of different styles both in comics and in manga; which has only made comparisons more difficult because a lot of them influence artists from the other side.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Different styles are different?

Also, subjectively I think those two original examples show one drab, fairly awful scene (the manga) and something interesting, bold, 'cinematic' and textured (the Western offering). I tend to always favour Western designs over Asian anyway, so same old, same old for me.

 

[CaitSeith]

Different countries, different trends. The first one seems to dramatize the consequences over the actions (the images are crystal clear like photographs). The second dramatizes much more the actions themselves (the parts involving fast moves look like motion blur from a movie in pause).

 

[Major_Tom]

There is no such thing as "western comics". Same with "western RPG". Stop pretending everything non-Japanese can be lumped together.

 

[Vausch]

That manga scene successfully conveys a sense of speed and motion, but it also rather makes it unclear what exactly is going on. That Marvel page is more static but more clear. Depends on what you prefer.

Yes but with that, they're differing in context and layout.

Each one of the first page's panels are laid out exactly the same as if a film shot, the camera gradually moving along with Hawkeye to keep him relatively centred. The whole of the page is showing him moving throughout the area for a break in, cutting down the guards quite clearly faster than they were able to react (as suggested with the black shirted fellah barely changing position before getting stabbed).

The bit with Genos and Sonic on the other hand is showing emphasis on certain aspects, changing the frame significantly to show it. Genos in that page is surprised, if not shocked at something and has his focus on Genos's hand. And while some are complaining about the blur and speed lines, you can clearly see that one of those paths is tearing off some of Sonic's clothes which heavily points to him being taken by surprise and barely dodging a blow from someone he didn't expect to be as fast as that. Genos's rapid movement compared to Sonic's relatively still body also suggests that Sonic was still able to dodge safely despite the chaos and Genos is still struggling to hit him.