Why must "MMO" always be followed by "RPG"?

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emeraldrafael

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EllEzDee said:
emeraldrafael said:
They dont have to be MMORPGs. You can really do anything. Any multiplayer match online in an FPS is an MMOFPS. Its just that MMORPGs are the easiest to make, play, market, and make money on.

You're just making a lot of general assumptions about the "requirements".
Red Orchestra, with up to 50 people playing online (biggest i've played, though i don't do much FPS gaming) isn't an MMO. MMO means massively, ie larger than large. Just because it's online multiplayer, doesn't make it MMO.
The tom clancy flight simulator thing lets you get up to over 200.

Besides, massive is different by other's definitions. As long as its what you consider big, its an MMO< because its players from everywhere coming to gether in big numbers and gaming in one area. Online multiplayer games (really any, most are big now) are basically MMOs.
 

GrimHeaper

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Many games have RPG elements even DMC has rpg elements.
Fallout is a good example as well along with many other non rpg games
Most of the games you probably like would be nonexistent without RPG elements.
 

Throwitawaynow

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EllEzDee said:
emeraldrafael said:
They dont have to be MMORPGs. You can really do anything. Any multiplayer match online in an FPS is an MMOFPS. Its just that MMORPGs are the easiest to make, play, market, and make money on.

You're just making a lot of general assumptions about the "requirements".
Red Orchestra, with up to 50 people playing online (biggest i've played, though i don't do much FPS gaming) isn't an MMO. MMO means massively, ie larger than large. Just because it's online multiplayer, doesn't make it MMO.
MAG has 256 player matches, MMOFPS, 3 factions, upgraded skills and guns, specializations and ranks, squad leaders, battle leaders. 256, way more than any BG, raid, or dungeon of any of these things called "MMO".

[link]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAG_(video_game)[/link]
 

Savagezion

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EDITed for truth's sake:
Zhukov said:
1) The gameplay must be easily accessible. This means pandering to the lowest common denominator and the depth is seriously hindered so much there is a ceiling that most will find very low. It must be combat-based. The following is generally true but not across the board. (There are exceptions to the following statement.)It must revolve primarily around you and your enemy taking turns to automatically slap each other across the face, mostly just to pass the time while you wait for your ability cooldowns to run out.
2) Flawed ruleIt must involve tedious amounts of grind for the sake of incremental stat increases. There are exceptions with this rule as well but it is generally true.
3) Flawed RuleIt must have absolutely no interesting narrative content of any kind.There are exceptions with this rule as well but it is generally true.
4) Flawed RuleIt must have really clunky character animation. There are exceptions with this rule as well but it is generally true.
5) Flawed RuleThe setting must be as unoriginal as possible. Ideally a third-generation Tolkien rip-off. If you really want to push the envelope you can set it in space and rip off Star Trek instead.There are exceptions with this rule as well but it is generally true.
I could list examples but seriously, the market deems that this is what the people want. People flock to WoW like it is the second coming and people ignore some pretty good titles out there while they cry that no MMOs are trying to break out of the mold. What I find funny is that people find these new games that don't use the "old MMO system" (the system WoW polished and uses) they claim they hate the old system, then when they play a new one, they say "Well, the 'old system' let me do this thing I want to do (that is out of balance/whack with your system) and your game doesn't so it sucks."

(The one game that might defy this trend is that Old Republic thing. The idea of a fully voiced and story-driven MMO is certainly interesting. And, to quote Yahtzee, "Star Wars is the one thing over which nerds are sure to get even weirder". But I'm still not about to put money on it.)
Maybe. Maybe Guild Wars 2 will do it. Hell, maybe Guild Wars 1 did it. Maybe Tabula Rasa did it. Maybe City of Heroes did it.

So come on games industry. How about a bit of variety here, eh?
I am sure they would respond "Come on gamers how about a little proof this is what you are wanting here, eh?

-snip-Anything but grinding for XP in a yet another totally-not-Middle-Earth setting populated by swimsuit models and bodybuilders running about in metallic underwear.
This is what is drawing the profit right now.

So... thoughts? Would anyone else like to see some non-RPG MMOs?
I have seen em and you are not allowed to praise them because they all do something that doesn't line up with someones view of what an MMO should do so because of 1 or 2 things they all completely suck. Basically, if it isn't "perfect" it sucks ass. FOr a list:

CoH - Cool action game (Think inFamous, Batman Arkham Asylum, etc. minus cutscenes.) in MMO format. Story isn't the greatest but c'mon, its an action game.
Guild Wars - Cool RPG. Pretty good story, grind free, folklore/cultural setting.
Tabula Rasa - FPS/RPG. OK story, good action, pretty original setting, had a poor player base.
 

Jaime_Wolf

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Zhukov said:
1) The gameplay must suck mightily. It must be combat-based. It must revolve primarily around you and your enemy taking turns to automatically slap each other across the face, mostly just to pass the time while you wait for your ability cooldowns to run out.
A lot of games are moving beyond this combat mechanic. DCUO is, despite it's flaws, a pretty nice example with timer abilities coupled with basic beat-'em-up combat including comboes. As for combat-based, the overwhelming majority of mainstream games are combat-based, especially multiplayer games.
Zhukov said:
2) It must involve tedious amounts of grind for the sake of incremental stat increases. No exceptions. Ever.
Again, I think people are very slowly starting to pull away from this. Also, I think a lot of people mistake the problem. Rewarding people with incremental stat increases is fine (and a way to balance the game so more time in the game means a more powerful character, which most people want) so long as what you do to get them is fun. You don't need to change the rewards, you need to change the grind.
Zhukov said:
3) It must have absolutely no interesting narrative content of any kind.
This one is really tough to overcome because interesting narrative typically changes the world of characters in significant ways, which is really hard to manage when you also want a huge number of people sharing roughly the same world. Some games manage this a little better by making locations change locally, so if you save the town YOU see it as saved whereas other people still see it as in trouble. But then you have a weird disconnect because why are those people looking for companions to save the town?
Zhukov said:
4) It must have really clunky character animation.
This one is just not true. Several MMOs have decent character animation. A lot of it is just that many of the most successful MMOs are quite a few years old now and expansion packs and updates can only do so much.
Zhukov said:
5) The setting must be as unoriginal as possible. Ideally a third-generation Tolkien rip-off. If you really want to push the envelope you can set it in space and rip off Star Trek instead.
Saying that it's a "Tolkien rip-off" is basically just saying "it's a fantasy setting". If you're involving generations of Tolkein rip-offs, then you're REALLY just saying it's a fantasy setting. As for Star Trek rip-offs, I think that's just what happens when you set out to make a semi-hard science fiction - it's not about copying Star Trek, it's about the fact that ANY universe in that particular region of the hard/soft sci-fi scale will necessarily be pretty similar in a lot of ways.

Zhukov said:
So come on games industry. How about a bit of variety here, eh? How about some games that take the good parts of an MMO (huge world, persistant servers, large player population etc) but scrape off the shitty parts. How about say... a parkour platforming game where one faction is based around evasion while the other is focused on pursuit, and perhaps a third based on enforcing the peace.
Doesn't that sound like it would work a LOT better for a conventional non-MMO multiplayer game? How does it make use of persistent worlds? How would your character improve? How would you keep it from getting boring if these roles are locked in? What would the narrative be? How would you present a compelling narrative without changing the world for other players?

Note that you CAN change the world for other players, but that means that only one person gets to do that quest unless it's on a timer (which would cheapen the impact). You can also go the "it's a two-way quest that changes the world, but can be changed back", but then it just becomes an obnoxious tug-of-war if there's anything valuable at stake and a pointless fight if there isn't.

Zhukov said:
Hey, it might even make good business sense too. Imagine being able to tap into the teeming hordes of CoD fans with a MMO-FPS based around near-future warfare.
Let me help you out with that one. [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mmofps]
 

Edge Hypermatter

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Because lag isn't as big a problem in an RPG as it is in any other genre. In an RPG, battle comes down to stats and the random number gods. In most other genres, it's a matter of skill, which doesn't work so well if the monster you're trying to shoot hasn't been there for the past five seconds. If you want to make a game that isn't an RPG, you'll have to put a lot of work into reducing lag. With an RPG, you can be pretty sloppy and still get away with it.
 

Random Fella

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Could you call all the games like cod and battlefield mmofps? Because they are i guess... In that case it's kinda even.
 

Random Fella

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Edge Hypermatter said:
Random Fella said:
Could you call all the games like cod and battlefield mmofps? Because they are i guess... In that case it's kinda even.
No, they aren't massively multiplayer.
Really? I'm sure over 1mil people are online cod every day and that's more than wow...
And don't say "Wow has 11 million people online" Because that's a lie, it's how many accounts exist, including expired ones.
 

robakerson

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I don't see it as a huge mystery that the genre gravitates towards n-th gen Tolkien derivative:

1) It's a common and popular motif for RPG fans (and has been for decades)

2) What I see as the three roots of modern MMORPG games:
MUDs proved people could produce, inhabit, and enjoy persistent worlds online,
Meridian 59 proved it could be structured (and sold!) in a 3d environment,
and Ultima Online + Everquest both proved there was a market for it
All (speaking generally of MUDs) were based on high fantasy n-th gen ripoffs.

The entire /roots/ of the MMO scene, as well as *all* of the top-name players in its history have been richly ingrained with a level of grindy RPG elements, and EVE stands as the only big name (non-F2P) commercial success that *doesnt* take place in a 'swords & magic, D&D/Tolkien, high-fantasy' setting.

As for the tedious grind etc., I think it takes a certain kind of player to be able to look past that and see the game they really *want* to see/play, and every month of renewed subscription (as well as thousands spent on goodies in F2P MMOs) shows us that there are plenty of these gamers out there. You can hardly fault the developers for making MMO's into a grindfest when it has shown to work time and time again.

It's the same basic principle as to why early arcade games were relentlessly hard. If you're paying to play, somebody's going to make sure you have to keep paying. Since you don't plunk a few quarters into the machine every time you die, they just make the game grindy with constant power inflation to make sure the game never ends.
 

Realitycrash

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Extra Credits made an episode about this. Sort of sums up my opinion.
Though we have several MMO that aren't RPGs.
 

Mad1Cow

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There are a hell of a load of variants on MMO...they just exist in Korea...RPG is often slapped with MMORPG to define it's type of RPG. Let's face it, JRPG, Western RPG and MMORPG are all pretty different genres because of their variety and standards. However when it's an MMOFPS (for example Call of Duty, online) it's not really that different from single player, it's just fast paced and less story (although with Call of Duty we could argue there really hasn't been much of a story). MMO's are everywhere and sometimes subtely found, Muhmorpurgurs are labelled because they are quite different from regular Arrpeegeez because of the community.
 

Ranorak

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Lets take a look and compare your points to EVE-Online

Zhukov said:
1) The gameplay must suck mightily. It must be combat-based. It must revolve primarily around you and your enemy taking turns to automatically slap each other across the face, mostly just to pass the time while you wait for your ability cooldowns to run out.
EVE is not solely combat based. Hell, you could make it big without ever leaving your station.
The combat that is involved is actually more based on weapon, range, ship type, fitting and your skills in various combat based attributes.


2) It must involve tedious amounts of grind for the sake of incremental stat increases. No exceptions. Ever.
Maybe, but this grind in EVE is passive. AKA, select a skill and wait. Online or offline. You can still do whatever it is you do during this period.

3) It must have absolutely no interesting narrative content of any kind.
As far as some epic missions go, they're not that bad.

4) It must have really clunky character animation.
You're in a ship, you don't move much.

5) The setting must be as unoriginal as possible. Ideally a third-generation Tolkien rip-off. If you really want to push the envelope you can set it in space and rip off Star Trek instead.
I actually found the Free For All, hostile, do whateverthefuckyouwant, space to be a bit more fun then....star trek or starwars.
 

Kyoufuu

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Zhukov said:
Of course I realise that the reasoning behind this serial idiocy basically boils down to, "That's how WoW did it and WoW gets to snort diamond dust while enjoying the attentions of exotic concubines dipped in choclate, so that's how we're going to do it." But by now it should be quite clear that nobody is going to dethrone WoW by imitating WoW. Mostly because anyone who wants to play WoW is already playing WoW and has probably made a pretty significant investment in terms of time, effort and community connections.
Exactly. No one is ever going to dethrone WoW. If you want a big player base, and I cannot stress this enough, do not make a WoW clone. Make an original game. Oh, you want examples? Let's just ask the 2nd biggest MMORPG in the world (in terms of paying subscribers, and it also has the largest number of free players), RuneScape. The game is nothing like WoW, and it beats Aion, Guild Wars, Rift, EQ2, DDO, LotRO, FFXI, the list goes on.

Also it has -excellent- narrative content.
 

Vitor Goncalves

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TeeBs said:
A game based on Parkour, that sounds like a even more boring version of a game based on skateboarding.

But back to the OP

I think Extra Credits did a video on this, there is a Golf MMO in Korea and a Sex Based MMO called Bonetown. *Mods don't strike me down there was an article about the same thing please have mercy*

I like the idea of a RTS MMO though the game itself would probably be buggy and is probably better in theory then practice.

Also this is my 1337 post, awesome.
There are several MMO sex based games out there. BUt that's not something to be presented at the escapist.
RTSMMO? There are several, being the most popular Travian. Fair enough its a browser game, but I dont think you can have a game a la starcraft 2 (in graphic quality) as MMO. Your average gaming PC would probabbly not be able to cope with it. Maybe in a few years.
 

Vitor Goncalves

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A quick trip to wikipedia could enlighten you that there are more kinds of MMOs than you probably can count (and some even more weird but we can't name them here because of the mods).

The problem is like many mentioned, WoW is the king of MMORPG, not only cursing every other MMORPG to a slow and painful dead but even drawing so much atention from the community that leads most people (even you) to believe there are no other genres of MMO out there.
 

Thespian

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Extra Credits talked about this, how MMO =/= MMORPG, and we could see MMORTS, or MMO Action/Adventures soon.

emeraldrafael said:
They dont have to be MMORPGs. You can really do anything. Any multiplayer match online in an FPS is an MMOFPS. Its just that MMORPGs are the easiest to make, play, market, and make money on.

You're just making a lot of general assumptions about the "requirements".
Easiest to make money on? Please. Anyone would be better off spitting out a generic FPS with multiplayer than compete with WoW