"Why not just watch porn?"

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

You realize HOTD would not exist were it not for the tits? People can't sit there and say it would be better without them because it wouldn't EXIST without them. So no, it could not be better.

So in other words the shiny jingling tits are what keeps people from realizing it's shit?

More like it was always the artists' original intent to have it in the show, because including sexuality in things isn't always meant to distract from something being bad or to bring in more viewers and sales.

That assumption is a little prudish, really.

I mean, I'm thinking about including ecchi in a video game that I'm making. That doesn't mean I'm only doing it for viewers or attention. I'm doing it for the fun of it. I'm adding it because it's entertaining for me and other people who like ecchi.

edit: I realize you may be joking, but I just wanted to clear it up.

 

[Ferisar]

Because some great animes have been stunted by the sheer stupid amount of fan service. My favored example:

High School of the Dead

Now I loved HSD. However, the amount of fan service is so extreme in that show that it just seems like it'd be much easier to cut out the middle man and go to midgetsandgiraffesmakingtenderlove.com (...or a different site >.> <.<)

Frankly, I found it incredibly distracting. While I liked the anime a lot, I just plain feel uncomfortable sharing this particular anime with friends.

I'm not going to tell creators what to do with their shows/games or judge the fans since I'm aware that this is just kind of a trope of anime. However, I think they need to realize that they are isolating a lot of potential viewers (or in my case, causing a fan like myself not trying to get others to give the show a shot).

EDIT: Here is one of the funniest (or saddest pending your view point) of HSD fan-service. Ladies and Gentlemen...I present to you...

Spoiler: Matrix Boobs

...yeah....that just happened. Feel free to take a minute to clean up all the brain from your mind exploding.

That's strange. Some people just find ecchi distracting, but don't people realize they're a part of the show? Why can't people just take in every aspect? Does entertainment really need to be separated into "erotic" and "not erotic" like that?

I didn't find it distracting. The whole show was entertaining for me.

Really? Shots of Boobs following shots of more boobs in slow motion follow jiggling slow motion and matrix boobs don't distract you? The question isn't if you accept fan-service, it's whether it does anything for the work that it's in.

Also, if an entire show is based just on fan-service, then does it really have a right to exist? Why NOT just make porn?

Oh right, because bordering on pornography but being mild enough for being an active series rakes in views, so fuck the police, let's just make something that's going to "arouse" the masses, so to speak without any real merit.

If an artist or a creator of any media finds the need to stick fan-service into their product and compact it to such an amount that it's cringe-worthy, it's not out of the question to start asking yourself if said thing has any real need of existing.

Also, more to the original subject, erotica has a place, but it's just one step above pornography really. I can't blame anyone for enjoying it obviously, but if something is heavily based in erotica while TRYING very HARD to tell me that it's "a super serious show" makes me laugh. If it doesn't enhance your experience beyond being there to pander then don't fucking put it in there (that'swhatshesaidHOHOnotreally).

EDIT:
Also, to make a note, this isn't at all exclusive to pandering of the "sexual necessities" of young adults/late teens, that just happens to be the most common way (especially in anime, god only fucking knows), to get viewers.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

...So, they want to get aroused... but don't want to watch porn?

I don't even know. Strictly speaking there is no difference, morally or physically, between getting aroused by boobs that an artist just *happened* to insert on the front of a magazine cover and getting aroused by the boobs on an internet video.

 

[wulf3n]

but if something is heavily based in erotica while TRYING very HARD to tell me that it's "a super serious show" makes me laugh.

I'm curious what show are we talking about? HSOTD? because I don't remember ever seeing it taking itself seriously.

Also, if an entire show is based just on fan-service, then does it really have a right to exist? Why NOT just make porn?

Oh right, because bordering on pornography but being mild enough for being an active series rakes in views, so fuck the police, let's just make something that's going to "arouse" the masses, so to speak without any real merit.

If an artist or a creator of any media finds the need to stick fan-service into their product and compact it to such an amount that it's cringe-worthy, it's not out of the question to start asking yourself if said thing has any real need of existing.

Nothing needs to exist, something will exist when their is an active audience however.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

Really? Shots of Boobs following shots of more boobs in slow motion follow jiggling slow motion and matrix boobs don't distract you? The question isn't if you accept fan-service, it's whether it does anything for the work that it's in.

Nope. They don't distract, because I can take in everything that a show has to offer. I realize the end product is the inclusion of everything the artist had in mind in the beginning. It's all in how you approach things.

If you don't approach them as BLATANT FANSERVICE! BOOBS OH NO!!! It becomes pretty easy to accept them as part of the show.

It's the same as comic relief, really. Sometimes a show has comic relief (like fullmetal alchemist), but what it does for the show is add more aspects to it.

Also, if an entire show is based just on fan-service, then does it really have a right to exist? Why NOT just make porn?

Are you serious?

Maybe the artist would like to be creative with sexuality and create art that challenged him to do something with it rather than just have two or three people having sex?

h right, because bordering on pornography but being mild enough for being an active series rakes in views, so fuck the police, let's just make something that's going to "arouse" the masses, so to speak without any real merit.

Is that why erotic art in general gets less viewers on average?

It actually doesn't have the effect you think it does. Also, the thought of sexuality only being included in things to "bring in viewers" is completely wrong. You're forgetting that artists might just have fun including it in their works.

If an artist or a creator of any media finds the need to stick fan-service into their product and compact it to such an amount that it's cringe-worthy, it's not out of the question to start asking yourself if said thing has any real need of existing.

Really? Because I didn't cringe. There wasn't any reason to. Does any art have any real reason to exist? you're only singing this out because it has ecchi in it.

Also, more to the original subject, erotica has a place, but it's just one step above pornography really. I can't blame anyone for enjoying it obviously, but if something is heavily based in erotica while TRYING very HARD to tell me that it's "a super serious show" makes me laugh. If it doesn't enhance your experience beyond being there to pander then don't fucking put it in there (that'swhatshesaidHOHOnotreally).

Sexuality in a show means it can't be taken seriously. Gotcha.

This sort of thinking really limits what sorts of art people might create.

It's the same as the FullMetal Alchemist example. With comedy, it can still be taken seriously. Replace the comedy with ecchi and OOOOH NOOOOO WE CAN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

Why should there be a difference?

 

[Bocaj2000]

Mature argument:

The reason that we complain is that, more often than not, ecchi has no place in the work that it's in. If you have something sexual in your piece of art, then it needs to be appropriately placed. Examples of proper execution include Desert Punk, in which a woman was using her body to lower a man's guard so that she could screw him over at the end of the episode. This helped characterize the woman and showed that you can't trust any one. Improper use include the Soul Eater which showed a witch bathing for no fucking reason.

So, yeah. Sexuality CAN be used properly, but it's, more often than not, just softcore porn used to get ratings.

My actual thoughts:

I googled "ecchi" and went over to images... I got manga porn. I then went to the wiki page... ecchi is "sexual fantasy"... So, why not just watch porn?

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

 

[balladbird]

From what I understand, people do it because they fear how outsiders perceive their entertainment venue of choice. Maybe if you're already a fan of a series or a visual novel or what-have-you, you can just take the fanservice as part of the overall experience, but to someone self conscious about how their favorite show will look to people not already fond of the storytelling medium, they're aware that the huge amounts of sexual content will drown out absolutely everything else about the show, and make them seem like perverts for liking it.

Or so I suppose, based on some of the longer posts I've seen on the subject.

Personally, I don't really care about how things appear to people with no interest in them, so I'm not a vocal fellow. I dislike fanservice, more because japanese obsession with "moe" has castrated female character development, and condemned pretty amazing series to undeserved early deaths (Yes, Japan, I'm still pissed that you got Deadman Wonderland canceled for not being "moe" enough.) than for the sexuality, which I simply find tasteless. However, you won't find me complaining about it and telling people to watch porn instead in discussions about those series specifically.

 

[wulf3n]

The reason that we complain is that, more often than not, ecchi has no place in the work that it's in.

Is that not for the creators to decide?

So, yeah. Sexuality CAN be used properly, but it's, more often than not, just softcore porn used to get ratings

And that's an issue why?

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

 

[Bocaj2000]

The reason that we complain is that, more often than not, ecchi has no place in the work that it's in.

Is that not for the creators to decide?

So, yeah. Sexuality CAN be used properly, but it's, more often than not, just softcore porn used to get ratings

And that's an issue why?

1: Read "Death of the Author".

2: Out of place ecchi is just as distracting and annoying as out of place violence or out of place cursing. If it doesn't belong in the scene, it breaks verisimilitude and detracts from the piece as a whole. If you don't see why that's bad to a work of art, then you're not worth my time.

Edit:

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

Then look at porn.

 

[SinisterGehe]

So... IF it is not porn - anime with big titied characters wearing less that hankerchief of fabric - is striptease?
I been to striptease show and I can tell you it is way classier than any anime. And I have watched anime and I can tell you 99% of it has no class or rank.

/flameshield

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

The reason that we complain is that, more often than not, ecchi has no place in the work that it's in.

Is that not for the creators to decide?

So, yeah. Sexuality CAN be used properly, but it's, more often than not, just softcore porn used to get ratings

And that's an issue why?

1: Read "Death of the Author".

2: Out of place ecchi is just as distracting and annoying as out of place violence or out of place cursing. If it doesn't belong in the scene, it breaks verisimilitude and detracts from the piece as a whole. If you don't see why that's bad to a work of art, then you're not worth my time.

Trying to limit art to only ever be one way is not helping art and is actually making it less diverse. I don't care for a world where art only ever follows one person's set of rules.

Edit:

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

Then look at porn.

"Why does Fullmetal Alchemist need the comedy parts?"

"Because it's funny and entertaining"

"then go to a comedy club"

----

"Why do the characters in this show have such creative clothing?"

"because it's nice to look at"

"Then go to a fashion show.

----

"Why does this video game have to have a story?"

"Because the story's thought provoking and adds context to what the characters are doing."

"Then go watch a movie."

---

"Why is the main character so good looking?"

"Because it makes it aesthetically pleasing."

"Then go read a fashion model magazine"

---

Where's the difference?

 

[wulf3n]

1: Read "Death of the Author".

One day, perhaps. For the purposes of continuing this discussion, I'll work with the description on Wikipedia.

I don't believe it relates to the issue at hand.

You may not like the inclusion of said aspect but as the creation of the Author it's their place to include it.

2: Out of place ecchi is just as distracting and annoying as out of place violence or out of place cursing. If it doesn't belong in the scene, it breaks verisimilitude and detracts from the piece as a whole.

Who's to say what belongs in a scene? to quote wikipedia

"To give a text an Author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text."

By arguing your interpretation as the only interpretation you are going against the very thing "Death of the Author" is trying say.

If you don't see why that's bad to a work of art, then you're not worth my time.

Why does every piece of media need to be "art" or at least your definition of art?

EDIT: Can someone can explain to me the artistic purpose of fanservice and how it contributes to "the experience"? I really want to know at this point.

Because it's nice to look at.

Then look at porn.

Like you said it contributes to the experience. It is not the sole aspect of the experience one is their to experience.

Is that really such a hard concept to comprehend?

 

[GonzoGamer]

Everything can be porn to somebody. It's best not to think about that sometimes.
There are probably even people out there who get turned on by watching someone do their taxes.

 

[balladbird]

I been to striptease show and I can tell you it is way classier than any anime. And I have watched anime and I can tell you 99% of it has no class or rank.

I'm certain that you have seen more than enough anime to be able to speak with authority regarding the quality and artistic merit of 99% of the medium; just as I'm sure you didn't come in here with such a flagrantly hilarious generalized judgement just to draw attention, which I'm feeding you because I guess I'm silly.

"Why does Fullmetal Alchemist need the comedy parts?"

"Because it's funny and entertaining"

"then go to a comedy club"

Tonal dissonance can be argued to be distracting, it's a long standing argument even in the highest regarded works. Can't deny that arguing everyone who likes an aspect of a medium, be it fanservice or comedy relief, should get their jollies elsewhere since one doesn't personally like it is a tad myopic.

 

[Entitled]

Personally, I can be a lot more turned on by sexual scenes in narrative stories, than by hardcore porn without context.

I have already seen enough porn, and had enough real life sex, to imagine either of them just by thinking about them, I wouldnt need material for that. But plots can be erotic in a way of appealing situational context fetishes, or personality fetishes. "They are siblings but they don't know about it yet" or "She just wants to get closer to him even though he already has a girlfriend" can be a lot more erotic than just "look, here is a penis entering a vagina".

 

[Sectan]

I watched To Love-Ru. After about the 10th "Oh no I fell and my face just happened to get buried into some girl's breasts" joke it got really old. There was a plot about an accidental engagement or something along with a relationship issue between the main character and two girls, but the fan service just got shoehorned in so badly that it broke up any coherent story. Granted that's my only experience with ecchi so some may be different.

In the case of To Love-Ru nothing went anywhere. I'd think after waking up with a naked woman in your bed for the 100th time you'd get used to it. I don't know maybe you'd actually talk to her and form some kind of something or just...ANYTHING! And again after the 10th breast fall you get a little numb to it.

When used sparingly fan service and the like would work better. Two people accidentally getting close or in some compromising situation has a lot more impact when it's used once or twice. Having it in every episode makes it worthless storywise. Like it's just some box to check off. "Okay...boobshot, check. Accidentally groping busty female character, check. Getting all worked up and embarrassed...check. Getting hit over the head by the tsundere chick...check.

 

[wulf3n]

Tonal dissonance can be argued to be distracting, it's a long standing argument even in the highest regarded works.

I guess it depends on the work. I would argue tonal dissonance is the key aspect of dark comedy.

I agree with what you're saying though.

 

[MahouSniper]

What a lot of people seem to be missing here is that art is created to be consumed by someone else. I'm an actor and if I put on a show, I want to get feedback. My artistic decision might be to play a character comically, but if everyone comes up and says "that didn't work, he should have been played seriously," then I have failed regardless of what my artistic direction was. The same can be said for other mediums. If they're attempting to show a certain genre or style, and a piece of the show detracts from the mood or feeling of that medium, then they should fix that, as it makes a better show.

The video clip above was extremely excessive, unrealistic, and the most blatant kind of fan service. Is this automatically bad? No, of course not. Look at To-Love-Ru. That show is that but worse, but the fan service is the focus of the show there. So that fan service adds to the intended emotion and feel of the show and as a result, I actually enjoyed the series even though I didn't really find any of the fan service attractive (big tits and bondage just aren't really my thing). In HSOTD, the primary focus is the zombie apocalypse and all the horror and drama that comes with it. The show is a zombie horror series, like The Walking Dead, and is consumed for the same reason. However, they also feel compelled to throw huge, floppy tits in whenever they can. This takes away any feeling of tension or drama the scene might have had and replaces it with either arousal, disgust, or confusion (in my case). Can you imagine if The Walking Dead had to have bikini models on trampolines every other episode? I don't think it would have rated as highly as it did.

The all-important thing to remember in every artistic medium is context. Does the content of the scene fit the intended context? I've found that at least in the example of HSOTD, the answer is usually no. It tries to go for a more serious zombie drama, which the gratuitous fan service distracts from. If it was an undead splatterfest like Zombieland or Dead Rising, then the tits would fit right in, as the purpose is fun and coolness rather than drama.

 

[Shia-Neko-Chan]

I watched To Love-Ru. After about the 10th "Oh no I fell and my face just happened to get buried into some girl's breasts" joke it got really old. There was a plot about an accidental engagement or something along with a relationship issue between the main character and two girls, but the fan service just got shoehorned in so badly that it broke up any coherent story. Granted that's my only experience with ecchi so some may be different.

In the case of To Love-Ru nothing went anywhere. I'd think after waking up with a naked woman in your bed for the 100th time you'd get used to it. I don't know maybe you'd actually talk to her and form some kind of something or just...ANYTHING!

The thing about that is, that makes it an "ecchi" just as a show that revolves only on comedy is a "comedy". It's meant to be fun and entertaining.

I personally find shows like that fun. They can be quite creative with how the situations might play out. Just like comedy has to get creative with its jokes, so the viewer won't get bored.

But if you're looking for a show with plot, there are plenty with both a constantly moving story and ecchi. They're just rarely made into anime because people feel like they shouldn't take something seriously or care that it has a story because ecchi is included.

Kinda like Highschool of the Dead. The whole thing was pretty entertaining and the story was engaging. For me, anyway. The ecchi was nice, too.

Even if you didn't like Highschool of the dead, though, I hope you'll keep an open mind for future releases like it.

Having it in every episode makes it worthless storywise. Like it's just some box to check off. "Okay...boobshot, check. Accidentally groping busty female character, check. Getting all worked up and embarrassed...check. Getting hit over the head by the tsundere chick...check.

True, some ecchi isn't very creative. It just means there needs to be better ecchi and it needs to be less formulaic.

 

[wulf3n]

I'm an actor and if I put on a show, I want to get feedback. My artistic decision might be to play a character comically, but if everyone comes up and says "that didn't work, he should have been played seriously," then I have failed regardless of what my artistic direction was. The same can be said for other mediums. If they're attempting to show a certain genre or style, and a piece of the show detracts from the mood or feeling of that medium, then they should fix that, as it makes a better show.

Everyone perhaps. But what if you had 5 different groups all equally represented [e.g. equal percentage of fan base] saying:
1) You need to play it more serious.
2) You need to play it more dark.
3) You need to play it more optimistic.
4) You need to play it more physical.
5) You're spot on don't change a thing.

What would you do then?