WHY RHIANNA WHY!?!?!?

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Robrecht751

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Oct 29, 2009
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You were a writer on Consortium? I backed that game's Kickstarter. You mentioned doing the Information Console, just how many writers were there during the development?

Between you and [user]Leather Raven[/user] I have to wonder just how many anonymous devs lurk here instead of Neogaff, of as I like to call it 'Rumor City.'
We had three writers on the game. I also came in late in development (About a year and a half ago) when the dialogue and such was already pretty much done. We ended up with two, Steve and I, and we worked together on topics for the info console. I would pitch an idea, he would say great, if we were unsure we'd bounce it off Greg (the lead dev), but he generally gave us a lot of freedom. We're in brainstorming mode for game two right now!

As Rhi mentioned, studios are still in an adolescent stage when dealing with writers. Some keep them on the outside, hire them as contract writers and they never get to work with the devs. This doesn't work. Other studios, like 343 Industries, have the writers work on the production floor and can talk to developers as the game progresses. This is what the Creative Director is supposed to facilitate.

It's an utterly new way of doing narrative, and one I find fascinating. The problem with it is that writing for games is complex as hell, and it doesn't take much to make it fall apart.
 

Grimh

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Feb 11, 2009
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A lot of game writers don't usually actually write the whole game and even more rarely do they write the whole thing themselves, and even then they might be writing based on anothers ideas.
They often have to work after a pre-defined concept and sometimes stitch someone elses scattered ideas into a somewhat comprehensible tale. They can be part of a writing team and/or come in on the development at a pretty late stage. For example I heard Rihanna came into Mirror's Edge super late and had to help cobble together a story based on an almost completed game.

Games can be very difficult it is to write for unless you're part of it from the very start and are able to work closely with all the other cogs in this convoluted machinery that is game development. Even then it can be pretty rough.
 

The Madman

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Dec 7, 2007
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Leather_Raven said:
The Madman said:
in fact Sir. Pratchett recently signed a new deal for another ten books in upcoming years.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but I'm pretty damn sure that's not true either.

Rhi
Here is where I got that from, is it incorrect?

CriticalMiss said:
Have you read Raising Steam yet? It's great. And has trains. He's still doing damn well in the writing department as far as I'm concerned.
Not yet but it's on my to-do list. I've still got two other books I really need to get around to reading before I think of buying even more. Glad to hear it's good though!
 

Tahaneira

Social Justice Rogue
Feb 1, 2011
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Leather_Raven said:
Tahaneira said:
Unfortunately, he's so far along in his Alzheimer's he's pretty much out of the game. His latest books have been... off. To my mind, his mind has already died; it's just his body that's still walking around. T_T
That's just bollocks.

Rhi
I must have gotten my information from faulty sources then. I apologize greatly for the horrendous insult. *goes off somewhere to commit seppuku*
 

TaboriHK

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Sep 15, 2008
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Since making games works like making hot dogs more often than not, I don't attribute any bad portion to any one person. There's no saying what changes and edits were made, or requested. It's a company fail because they assembled the final product.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that my wife is an illustrator, and there are literally hundreds of reasons why the end product is not what she would have made it if she had final say. When you're hired to do apparently any kind of art anything, you are at the whim of your employer. And often your employer's vision overrides all, even when that's to the detriment of the final product. You just do what you're asked to do as best you can and sometimes you get lucky and your talents shine through. Other times, your name is attached to a disorganized mess. I don't envy any job that has name recognition as an element and also this kind of relationship, for exactly what this thread has shown. People read names and make the connection, even if it's not fair.
 

gibboss28

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Feb 2, 2008
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CriticalMiss said:
The Madman said:
Tahaneira said:
Unfortunately, he's so far along in his Alzheimer's he's pretty much out of the game. His latest books have been... off. To my mind, his mind has already died; it's just his body that's still walking around. T_T

Don't get me wrong. I respect the man greatly, and love his work dearly. But he's gone now.
Untrue actually, he's not doing that bad these days. Link Almost all his problems thus far have mercifully been physical as opposed to mental, in fact Sir. Pratchett recently signed a new deal for another ten books in upcoming years.

Plus I quite liked Snuff which is a recent book of his. Not as good as Thud or Guards! Guards! maybe, but still a damned fine Sam Vimes tale.
Have you read Raising Steam yet? It's great. And has trains. He's still doing damn well in the writing department as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed with that, haven't laughed that much at a book in a while.
 

GonzoGamer

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Apr 9, 2008
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Same thing with her father Terry Pratchett: he's written some of my favorite books of all time but he's also written a few snoozers. Same thing with all writers really, did you read JK Rowling's post HP book? That was pretty tedious. Some Sinfeld episodes are hilarious and some suck. You can't like everything an artist does.

The Madman said:
Alls I know for sure is that she desperately needs to convince her father to get into games again. Back in ye olden days there were a sparse few Diskworld games, but that was ages ago. AGES! We need an open world Discworld rpg asap. I'm thinking get Double Fine to do it ala Brutal Legend.

This needs to happen.
Yes it does, I would play it endlessly...if it was done well.
 

Evonisia

Your sinner, in secret
Jun 24, 2013
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Though it wasn't her fault, I'd say that Mirror's Edge is easily the weakest in terms of story out of that list (I've read up or watched footage of/on them, seeing as there are quite a few I haven't actually played)

But everyone has a bad one in them. Everyone has their ups and downs.
 

Weaver

Overcaffeinated
Apr 28, 2008
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Holy shit! It's so cool Rhianna Pratchett herself posted in this thread!

We gotta get her a red name.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Heh. Having the subject of the thread show up and start commenting makes it kinda hard to be my usual blunt self.

Suffice to say, of the games from that list that I've played, none of them really impressed me in terms of narrative or character or whatnot. Well, Bioshock Infinite was awesome, but I don't know what Ms Pratchett's role was there, it's generally regarded as Ken Levine's brainchild.

Heavenly Sword didn't know if it was being serious and dramatic or silly and campy.
Mirror's Edge didn't give its story the time of day. (Good fun though.)
Tomb Raider... had its moments I guess? I feel it would have been better as an original property, rather than being weighed down by the need to do X, Y and Z because it's Tomb Raider and therefor must have X, Y and Z.
Prince of Persia (I'm assuming this is the 2008 game) also had a bit of charm, but it was trying to tell too much with too little. An epic, world saving adventure that consisted entirely of two people climbing on some ruins.

However, her post makes it clear just why some of those difficulties come to be. I'd heard previously of how Mirror's Edge didn't bother with writing stuff until the game was 80% done.

So yeah, despite never having my mind blown, I'd be willing to see what she could do under favourable conditions.

...

CriticalMiss said:
Have you read Raising Steam yet? It's great. And has trains. He's still doing damn well in the writing department as far as I'm concerned.
Raising Steam suffered from a severe lack of tension due to comically ineffectual villains. Whenever anything seems to be about to get serious, the heroes handle it with a shrug and a flick of the wrist. Snuff was a bit the same come to think of it.

I loved Unseen Academicals though.
 

Leather_Raven

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Jun 28, 2009
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The Madman said:
Here is where I got that from, is it incorrect?
Yes it is. Of the 10 books, only Raising Steam is new, the rest are older material like the short story collections (Blink of the Screen and Slip of the Keyboard) Folklore of Discworld etc. It is a very misleading story though.

And to respond to a few things brought up - My role on Bioshock Infinite was working on the AI dialogue side of things (Founders and Vox Pop) and helping Ken establish the structure for them. Outer circle rather than inner circle stuff.

With Mirror's Edge the narrative was hampered by so much design already being in place when I came on board, a lot of script being cut at the 11th hour and a less than ideal animation style for the cut-scenes (which I didn't get to see until after the game shipped.) For my part I was naive about what I'd be able to do within the framework and I should've insisted that I be better imbedded in the team.

However, I did have fun writing the comic series with DC, which I recommend if you're at all interested in the world outside what was represented in the game. Ideally, if I'd come in earlier it's more akin to the story I would've liked to tell in the game. It's also a prequel to the game, which is apparently also what the next Mirror's Edge title will be so it's going to be interesting to see whether they reference stuff in the comics at all. I noticed that her getting the arm tattoo was shown in the teaser trailer, which is definitely in the comics as that particular tattoo is very significant to Faith. So who knows, really? I suspect I'm not on EA's Christmas card list though.
 

Jazoni89

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Dec 24, 2008
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Leather_Raven said:
The Madman said:
Here is where I got that from, is it incorrect?
Yes it is. Of the 10 books, only Raising Steam is new, the rest are older material like the short story collections (Blink of the Screen and Slip of the Keyboard) Folklore of Discworld etc. It is a very misleading story though.

And to respond to a few things brought up - My role on Bioshock Infinite was working on the AI dialogue side of things (Founders and Vox Pop) and helping Ken establish the structure for them. Outer circle rather than inner circle stuff.

With Mirror's Edge the narrative was hampered by so much design already being in place when I came on board, a lot of script being cut at the 11th hour and a less than ideal animation style for the cut-scenes (which I didn't get to see until after the game shipped.) For my part I was naive about what I'd be able to do within the framework and I should've insisted that I be better imbedded in the team.

However, I did have fun writing the comic series with DC, which I recommend if you're at all interested in the world outside what was represented in the game. Ideally, if I'd come in earlier it's more akin to the story I would've liked to tell in the game. It's also a prequel to the game, which is apparently also what the next Mirror's Edge title will be so it's going to be interesting to see whether they reference stuff in the comics at all. I noticed that her getting the arm tattoo was shown in the teaser trailer, which is definitely in the comics as that particular tattoo is very significant to Faith. So who knows, really? I suspect I'm not on EA's Christmas card list though.
Hello Rihanna, I'm a fan of your work, and especially your fathers work.

A few questions for you, Is there anything at all you would change at all about your work, do you strive to be a perfectionist when it comes to writing. Is there any story ideas that you have scrapped during development of a game because of your own ideas of how the story should be, if so I would sincerely love to hear about them.

I know, you are a very busy woman, but I hope you can take some time to answer.
 

PirateRose

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Aug 13, 2008
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Writers in the gaming industry don't always have complete creative freedom. Half the time they are given a list of characters, with expected personalities, their appearances already designed, and certain plot events the lead designers want to happen. Writers are expected to fill in the blanks between the planned point A and B and C.

Getting from point A to B to C doesn't always add up right when the writers don't have enough time to really think about it or aren't allowed to make any alterations or the lead designers decide to change things because their super awesome artistic integrity was inspired last minute.

Then of course, things get bad when the team decides to cut things for time.
 

Cousken

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Mar 6, 2014
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The Madman said:
Alls I know for sure is that she desperately needs to convince her father to get into games again. Back in ye olden days there were a sparse few Diskworld games, but that was ages ago. AGES! We need an open world Discworld rpg asap. I'm thinking get Double Fine to do it ala Brutal Legend.

This needs to happen.
Perhaps you would consider playing the Discworld Multi User Dungeon http://discworld.starturtle.net/lpc/ to pulling one of the greates authors of our time from writing novels? Pretty please :)
 

chinangel

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Sep 25, 2009
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Leather_Raven said:
I read these forums, I sometimes even post. You've all been fairly polite, if curious, about the topic of... well, me. I appreciate that, so I thought I'd respond to a few things said in this thread about my career and the choices I've made. Please excuse any typos, this seems to have turned into a typing at 3am scenario.

Okay, here we go...

As some of you are aware (and it's great to read that the weird and occasionally messy world of a games writer is gaining a bit more understanding) I don't originate these stories. It's not a case of me rocking up to a developer and going 'Hey I have this GREAT idea!' It's more a case of a developer coming to me and saying 'Hey! We have this great idea/game design/set of levels/characters etc. But we need some story please.' This makes it quite a different ballgame from most other entertainment mediums.

My role is to take what they have, flesh it out and get it working in the game within the boundaries set by the developer - be they time, budget, design etc. What you get to work with can vary depending on how far development has already progressed. There's likely to be some spine of a story, some levels designed (in Mirror's Edge's case a whole game) and often a bit of character work. By and large it's at least what the developer will have needed for their pitch doc/proof of concept/green light etc. and enough to get folks actually building stuff.

The reason I (and other games writers) talk about the need to get writers/narrative designers in earlier is it would make our role a whole lot easier and more satisfying if *we* helped originate this kind of stuff. When you work as a hired-gun, rather than an imbedded writer, that hardly ever happens. Sometimes this is because the devs want to do it themselves, or they don't know where to find a games writer. Perhaps they're just not ready yet, or not used to thinking about story and writer at the same time. Often there can be an assumption that the 'word bits' are easy, cheap and that can easily be slipped in somewhere down the line. These attitudes unfortunately bypasses the skills that writers/narrative designers have for character and world building. Something that, you'd think, could be pretty useful to the development process.

It's getting a little better. People actually know games writers exist now and they're starting to use them more frequently. Although it's by no means industry standard. However, *how* they use them is still an ongoing battle of square pegs, round holes, miscommunication, mismanagement and occasional bouts of heartbreak. It really is a painful adolescence but hopefully we'll emerge on the other side as fully functioning grownups. Probably.

As for the titles I've worked on - Some have been in a lead writer capacity, such as Tomb Raider or the Overlord games, although I was the only writer on the latter. I didn't just write the ladies, BTW, I wrote the men too. Because it would be, frankly, a little weird not to. Yup, you get the ladies AND the men with me. I'm a full service provider.

Anyway...others jobs have been about supporting another writer (Prince of Persia.) A few have been the efforts of writing teams, such as Thief, Risen and Bioshock Infinite.

I took on these, as someone pointed out very varied titles, for an equally varied number of reasons - I fell in love with what the developer was trying to achieve, I was a fan of the franchise, I was helping a mate out, because I was asked and had the time, I was recommended by a former colleague, and, in one instance, because of a shared history involving a gay, escapologist tortoise. No job ever came about the same way.

Admittedly, not all have turned out the way I'd have liked. This has been for a variety of reasons, not least of which has probably been a little naivety on my part about the realities of what could be achieved within the aforementioned boundaries. We're all learning here.

Some I'm really proud to have been part of. Tomb Raider, for example (particularly Lara's journey which was my main focus) and the Overlord games, which were as fun to make as they are to play. Sometimes things go your way, sometimes they don't.

Creatively, on a broader scale, I still feel like I've only just got started; that I have many more stories to tell and become part of, both in games, and other mediums (a lot of my work is in comics and screenplays these days.)

As for most prominent female developer, I don't think I am. I've just been at this gig for a long time (16 years including my time on PC Zone) and I've worked on some high profile games. I try to use that position, where possible, to stand up for issues I care about within the industry that I love. I have a burning need to at least try to make things better.

This post isn't to justify anything in particular. If you don't like the games I've worked on, then no post of mine is going to make you change your mind. However, there's a lot of misinformation out there about what games writers in general do, so I thought I should sprinkle a little clarity into the mix. Hope it's of interest to those who care about such things.

Thanks for reading.

Rhi
Wow...how often do we get someone from the industry coming down to slum with the peons? :p

I kid, I kid but seriously this was an amazing bit of insight from a writer in the industry. If you don't mind I'd like to ask, when you can see a game is not headed in the direction you want, the story is becoming nonsensical or ridiculous or for whatever reason: is not where you want it to be, what do you do? What CAN you do?
 

Grace_Omega

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Dec 7, 2013
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I have to imagine writing for action-oriented video game genres is pretty tough, as the story constantly has to bend to the needs of the gameplay.

I have to say that apart from Tomb Raider and parts of Bioshock Infinite I'm not a huge fan of the writing in any of those games. They tend to be slightly more nuanced and polished than than what you generally get, but not enough to really stand above the swamp of poor writing in most games. But I don't know whether that's her fault or the problems I outlined above. I'd be interested in seeing what she'd do with something really story focused like a Walking Dead or a Gone Home.
 

Seneschal

Blessed are the righteous
Jun 27, 2009
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Do writers get to dictate what kind of presentation their writing will have? Will it be cutscene-heavy, voice-over narration, how often and how long the narrative sections will be, etc.? How will the gameplay complement or inform the plot?

I don't think that's generally the case, except in maybe RPGs. All too often, game writers are employed like proofreaders or copy editors...or cake decorators - the thing is already half-baked, they're just here to shape the frosting. The alternative--giving writers complete freedom--is no better, since everything they put in the script will take months for the programmers and artists to achieve.

It's only natural that game designers end up dictating the tone and presentation of a game in the end. And since Thief changed hands a few times, its presentation is bound to feel a bit patchwork, and the story was probably retconned and crowbarred in at the last minute, after a dozen rewrites.
 

Caliostro

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Jan 23, 2008
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Seneschal said:
Do writers get to dictate what kind of presentation their writing will have? Will it be cutscene-heavy, voice-over narration, how often and how long the narrative sections will be, etc.? How will the gameplay complement or inform the plot?
We have far more qualified people to answer that in this thread than me, but I'll throw in what I gather from interviews, reports, etc...

It varies wildly. More often than not though, no.

The development process is a very mixed bag in this industry. Different teams do things differently. Even the same teams can have very different processes depending on the project. Some games start their lives as gameplay experiments gone right, and end up tacking on the story in the end. Others are built as complete packages from the group up. In my, admittedly limited, knowledge it would seem most of the time people design the gameplay first, and the writer is later tasked with playing "connect the dots" with what they already have, having relatively little leeway to work with.

I keep going back to one of my favorite examples, and particularly relevant to this thread, Rhianna and Mirror's Edge. From what I gather the first ME apparently started life almost entirely as a gameplay project. Only near the end did they decide to have a story line, and thus called in Rhianna to fill in the gaps and try to connect what was, at that point, most of the already made, "no going back", game.

Another good example is the current "living story" of GW2. There's an interview [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4usI3LWcHc] with GW2 writers mentioning that the entire year and a half of "living story" was put together by 2 people locked in a room for 2 days straight. There are also several posts (can't find them, they are assorted posts by devs) implying/outright stating that the story was second to the gameplay features they wanted to introduce. The end results has been... Sad. As in "very bad", not "dramatic".

Fortunately not game is like that. The Bioshock games, to the best of my knowledge, seem to have all been built with the narrative weaved tightly into the game's core. Portal 2, for example, is another game that was designed around a story as well.

So to answer your initial question to the best of my limited abilities: Your mileage may vary. A lot. Depending on what team and what project you get you can get the best or worst case scenario, as well as anything in between.
 

TerribleAssassin

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Apr 11, 2010
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I haven't played the solid majority of them. But, the ones I have played I felt that the story was probably the weakest part.

Prince of Persia and Mirror's Edge

My issue with these games is that where the gameplay was solid, the story was tacked into the game through a hub world or cut-scenes.

BioShock Infinite

Know I could end up getting flack for this, but BS:I's story is painfully unfocused. Where the gameplay was really quite sloppy, something I won't indulge on here, it felt consistent enough that you could anchor on to it.

Tomb Raider

Lara's arc in this game was interesting, if slightly under-developed; however, the rest of the plot was painfully predictable and really could've done with some originality.