I realized that just after I posted that. I feel stupid. Gameplay-wise I guess there should be a sense of accomplishment. It's the character that you play's sense of success and accomplishment that I think some games should be without.AjimboB said:
Why should I have a sense of accomplishment and success if the planet was destroyed?
- Thread starter KissofKetchup
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Look, it should really be obvious that players should drive the action. If their goal is to defend a planet, then the planet should be bullethole-free at the end of the day. Otherwise the player isn't driving anything. That said, to allow for failures you can have scenarios like "Player, you go defend Secondary Objective. FailureMan, you go defend ObjectiveThatWillInevitablyBeLost"
When I run into this sort of failure wall, I think "Well, what the heck was the point of that?" My prime examples: F.E.A.R. and its sequel.
First one's objectives:
-Kill Alma
-Save the city
(ALL OBJECTIVES FAILED)
Second one's objectives:
-Kill Alma
-Preserve squadmates' lives
-Don't make things worse
(ALL OBJECTIVES FAILED)
If I had known an ending like that, I'd never have bothered playing.
When I run into this sort of failure wall, I think "Well, what the heck was the point of that?" My prime examples: F.E.A.R. and its sequel.
First one's objectives:
-Kill Alma
-Save the city
(ALL OBJECTIVES FAILED)
Second one's objectives:
-Kill Alma
-Preserve squadmates' lives
-Don't make things worse
(ALL OBJECTIVES FAILED)
If I had known an ending like that, I'd never have bothered playing.
Sometimes it isn't about the ending. Occasionally it is worthwhile traveling down a path to a known destination; a path that is filled with hardship, moral lessons, discovery, pain, and growth. The ultimate futility of the act falls within the realm of philosophical pandering like "Why bother with anything?..."
The reason is that we grow through firsthand experience. And, should the game deliver on its premise, you will get to watch a planet die from ground level. How utterly awesome is that prospect? Regardless of feeling cheated out of a 'good' ending, think on this:
You've repelled waves of enemy forces that would have taken out planetary garrisons. Your teammates have been dying like heroes of legend, you have suffered more in these days than ever before, but you have bled the enemy unlike any force they have known. And then, on the seventh day of the seventh month, just as the tide breaks and you catch a breath at last, you see the storm clouds gather. The enemy forces flee in panic, the surviving few of your warriors remove their head cover, and you stare solemnly, arms lowered, as everything you fought for is bathed in strobing light, becomes engulfed in flame, and dies ignominiously, flattened to endless fields of lifeless glass...
And then a 'restart at last checkpoint' prompts appears... Kidding!
If you cannot derive satisfaction of a defiant victory, of bravery in the face of fate, the ageless triumph in the myths of future generations, both yours and the enemy...
Well, then you must not have read nor seen 300 and other works like it. Sure, everyone dies... But it's the effort that counted.
The reason is that we grow through firsthand experience. And, should the game deliver on its premise, you will get to watch a planet die from ground level. How utterly awesome is that prospect? Regardless of feeling cheated out of a 'good' ending, think on this:
You've repelled waves of enemy forces that would have taken out planetary garrisons. Your teammates have been dying like heroes of legend, you have suffered more in these days than ever before, but you have bled the enemy unlike any force they have known. And then, on the seventh day of the seventh month, just as the tide breaks and you catch a breath at last, you see the storm clouds gather. The enemy forces flee in panic, the surviving few of your warriors remove their head cover, and you stare solemnly, arms lowered, as everything you fought for is bathed in strobing light, becomes engulfed in flame, and dies ignominiously, flattened to endless fields of lifeless glass...
And then a 'restart at last checkpoint' prompts appears... Kidding!
If you cannot derive satisfaction of a defiant victory, of bravery in the face of fate, the ageless triumph in the myths of future generations, both yours and the enemy...
Well, then you must not have read nor seen 300 and other works like it. Sure, everyone dies... But it's the effort that counted.
I've played quite a few games that have outright bad, or at least bittersweet endings. Sure, not as many as ones that have happy endings, but that's true of almost all forms of media. I honestly like the balance right now, it gives the sad endings a deeper impact when they are rarer and therefore less predictable.
I'm a romantic, it's a rare exception when I like something that doesn't have a happy or upbeat ending. Typically when I do wind up liking something that ends on a downer it's a horror movie.
That said, I kind of figured Halo: Reach was going to be something of a retcon the way the Star Wars Prequels were, with the door being opened for surviving Spartans, with an explanation of why they weren't involved in the rest of the series (there was a warning transmitted to some of the Jedi in the prequel movies).
I remember it being mentioned that there was no intention to actually end the franchise permanantly, even if the original team departs, so I imagine that is why they are doing this game in the past, to open doors for the liscence.
As far as a feeling of accomplishment when the planet is destroyed, well I suppose it depends on how the retcon works, and what kind of damage was done in return.
That said, I kind of figured Halo: Reach was going to be something of a retcon the way the Star Wars Prequels were, with the door being opened for surviving Spartans, with an explanation of why they weren't involved in the rest of the series (there was a warning transmitted to some of the Jedi in the prequel movies).
I remember it being mentioned that there was no intention to actually end the franchise permanantly, even if the original team departs, so I imagine that is why they are doing this game in the past, to open doors for the liscence.
As far as a feeling of accomplishment when the planet is destroyed, well I suppose it depends on how the retcon works, and what kind of damage was done in return.
Hate to be the third one to mention this, but I felt Shadow of the Colossus was extremely effective on multiple levels:
-The sequence where Wander is trying to reach Mono is fully interactive, but it is impossible to reach her (or at least nothing happens if you do). The player is free to try as much as they wish, but it gives them no satisfaction in the end.
-The sequence just before that where the player is playing as a Colossus is difficult to control. I had no idea what Dormin was doing half the time, which helped me to connect with Wander's disoriented feelings.
-The scene where the horse kills himself to save you is incredibly heartwarming. Seriously, he was the best A.I. companion I've ever had. I'm so sorry for leading you into that geyser field with the laser-shooting monstrosity, buddy. *Sniff.*
Can't think of any other examples.
-The sequence where Wander is trying to reach Mono is fully interactive, but it is impossible to reach her (or at least nothing happens if you do). The player is free to try as much as they wish, but it gives them no satisfaction in the end.
-The sequence just before that where the player is playing as a Colossus is difficult to control. I had no idea what Dormin was doing half the time, which helped me to connect with Wander's disoriented feelings.
-The scene where the horse kills himself to save you is incredibly heartwarming. Seriously, he was the best A.I. companion I've ever had. I'm so sorry for leading you into that geyser field with the laser-shooting monstrosity, buddy. *Sniff.*
Can't think of any other examples.
Flameboy answer:
Becuz thos xbots wit der halo dsn't no how 2 act when u los. ther4 da only wai 2 maek a nu gaem iz tu have it so dat even wen u los u winz!
Real answer:
"Going down fighting," I suppose. The chance to stare oblivion in the face, then piss in its gaping maw. Sure you failed, but by Zeus someone's going to remember how much of a fight you put up first.
Becuz thos xbots wit der halo dsn't no how 2 act when u los. ther4 da only wai 2 maek a nu gaem iz tu have it so dat even wen u los u winz!
Real answer:
"Going down fighting," I suppose. The chance to stare oblivion in the face, then piss in its gaping maw. Sure you failed, but by Zeus someone's going to remember how much of a fight you put up first.
The ending of Simon the Sorcerer 2. Man that was an absolute kick in the balls.
Other than that, Abe's Oddysee. If you play the game wrong the ending crushes you. You have the chance to replay the game then to get the good ending, but man the bad ending is crushing.
As for Halo:Reach : It could still work. It's possible to create an ending that gives you hope despite ultimately losing the battle. I mean look at the first Rocky movie. He loses the fight. Yes, he lost the fight, but he still lasted and showed tremendous heart. Okay, it's a little bbit harder to make the destruction of the world seem positive, but if you show it with "Gonna fly now" playing in the background, I'm sure it could work.
Other than that, Abe's Oddysee. If you play the game wrong the ending crushes you. You have the chance to replay the game then to get the good ending, but man the bad ending is crushing.
As for Halo:Reach : It could still work. It's possible to create an ending that gives you hope despite ultimately losing the battle. I mean look at the first Rocky movie. He loses the fight. Yes, he lost the fight, but he still lasted and showed tremendous heart. Okay, it's a little bbit harder to make the destruction of the world seem positive, but if you show it with "Gonna fly now" playing in the background, I'm sure it could work.
You can have a feeling of accomplishment just by facing off against impossible odds.
Just because few would- and few could last as long as you could (at whatever point)
Just because few would- and few could last as long as you could (at whatever point)