Why Skyrim sucked for me and how i could have enjoyed it more.

[Mister K]

Its not on PC is it? Because mods fix all that. Without mods, skyrim really is bland. 99% of all its praise is from PC.

Can't you feel that there is something... Awkward? When the game can only be considered playable only after great ammount of modification from community, when the basic product is DULL and BORING and BLAND, doesn't it mean that the game is... far from being good?
That is my problem with Bethesda games. I will f***ing NOT pay 60 USD again for unfinished, unlikable without mods piece of demo (sandbox, voices, basic models and effects included), that any normal dev would get sh*t for (i.e. EA), but big B somehow is always PRAISED for. Does not compute.

 

[laggyteabag]

If you want a more interesting RPG, or just an RPG, period (lets be honest, Skyrim is more of an open-world action game than and RPG)

TES hasn't been marketed as an RPG since daggerfall released in 1996.

Its always been an action-adventure, with minor RPG elements, game since redguard came out in 1998.

Wikipedia lists it an an Action-RPG, which is being VERY generous considering that the game lacks in both respects.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Wikipedia lists it an an Action-RPG, which is being VERY generous.

Not really, given that action-adventure come first in the title, and is thus, what 90% of the game is about.

 

[laggyteabag]

...time traveling robots with laser sword hands...
...What game has also written pausing time via opening the menu into its own lore, and has made the mod tools something that actually exists inverse?

If you could supply a link, I would love to read it, because if they can have a reasonable explanation for these mechanics, I will be impressed

 

[SajuukKhar]

If you could supply a link, I would love to read it, because if they can have a reasonable explanation for these mechanics then I will be impressed.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_36_Lessons_of_Vivec
36 lessons of vivec, a book series found in Morrowind.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vehks-teaching
Vehk's teachings, a less...... difficult summary of the 36 lessons of vivec.

Basically, the entire TES universe is the dream of a being known as the godhead, however, unlike a normal dream, where the dreamer's mind controls everything, the TES dream has achieved self-perpetuating existence.

One can gain power be seeing the dream so to speak, which is called the tower, or the eternal I, which is seeing the universe from its side and realizing its flat, like how a wheel turned on its side forms an I, or a pillar.

CHIM is the realization of the dream, and the realization that since everything is a dream, and part of the dream, the concept of individuality is a lie, however, even after realizing this, one rejects it in a form by saying I AM, declaring individuality in a world where no such thing exists, and by doing so, one achieves a states of lucid dreaming, aka CHIM.

CHIM, also known as starlight, high splendor, and royalty, gives the user ineradicable powers, such as
-'The immobile warrior is never fatigued. He cuts sleep holes in the middle of a battle to regain his strength.'
Pausing time via opening the menu to chug potions

-'The ruling king is armored head to toe in brilliant flame. He is redeemed by each act he undertakes. His death is only a diagram back to the waking world.
bringing yourself back to life via savegames.

-"Vivec put on his armor and stepped into a non-spatial space filling to capacity with mortal interaction and information, a canvas-less cartography of every single mind it has ever known, an event that had developed some semblance of a divine spark. "
Access to the creation kit

Past CHIM is amaranth, where one becomes a dreamer who breams his own dream universe only for a dreamed character inside THAt universe to become a dreamer of a new universe.
.
.
As for time traveling robots with laser sword hands
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Song_of_Pelinal
-[And then] Kyne granted Perrif another symbol, a diamond soaked red with the blood of elves, [whose] facets could [un-sector and form] into a man whose every angle could cut her jailers and a name: PELIN-EL [which is] "The Star-Made Knight" [and he] was arrayed in armor [from the future time].
-Pelinal called out Haromir of Copper and Tea into a duel at the Tor, and ate his neck-veins while screaming praise to Reman, a name that no one knew yet.
-he was Pelinal the Whitestrake because of his left hand, made of a killing light
.
.
Cutting atoms with magic swors is the resulst of the Redguard version of the Thu'um called Sword-Singing

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-vivecs-sword-meeting-cyrus-restless
"Surahoon," he said, "We are the ansu, the greatest warriors that live in men. Our swords sent the Left-Handers into the oceans, whose empire was four times the size of the white king. When we fight, our swords can kill the laws of nature itself. Yokuda is as you see it because our hira-dirg swords can cut the atomos, the uncuttable, and we did. We are the ansu, and we tell you now that you cannot beat the Ansu-Gurleht. How do you think he came by that name? Who do you think was our finest student?"

 

[SajuukKhar]

That's not even mentioning the moon colonies and spaceships the empire had, or how the entire imperial city is actually a giant magical weapon built by the Aylieds to be a mimicry of the shape of the mortal realm so they could pluck at its strings and destroy it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

So basically, you want Morrowind, and like everyone else, forget how poor its world was, and how dead its cities felt, and how unenjoyable the actual exploration was thanks to your characters inability to run.

I like you, I like you a lot.

Can i... can I marry you? please?

 

[BoogieManFL]

You should look into Divine Divinity: Original Sin if you're okay with turn based combat. That game doesn't handhold you at all and the world is quite pretty both in design and aesthetics.

 

[Artaneius]

You ever heard of something called mods? They pretty much add infinite possibilities to the game and thus fix your issue of the game being "bland". Topic closed.

 

[Artaneius]

Its not on PC is it? Because mods fix all that. Without mods, skyrim really is bland. 99% of all its praise is from PC.

Can't you feel that there is something... Awkward? When the game can only be considered playable only after great ammount of modification from community, when the basic product is DULL and BORING and BLAND, doesn't it mean that the game is... far from being good?
That is my problem with Bethesda games. I will f***ing NOT pay 60 USD again for unfinished, unlikable without mods piece of demo (sandbox, voices, basic models and effects included), that any normal dev would get sh*t for (i.e. EA), but big B somehow is always PRAISED for. Does not compute.

That's because most of EA games doesn't allow modding because "gasp" that would take away profits from their constant DLC packs. I don't think people would hate EA nearly as much if they just let the players decide how they want to play the games they pay for and not have some big corporation try to do anything possible to make sure they make the most money possible. Which often comes at the expense of gamers. The last thing I bought from EA was Dragon Age Ultimate Edition and that was years ago. And the last thing I bought from EA before that was an Ultima Online expansion called Age of Shadows that was released around 2000-2001.

EA has ruined way too many franchises, including the legendary Ultima series because of profit. And the sooner EA dies, the better off the gaming industry will be. Honestly, what's best for the gaming industry is for movies and music to get back on top. That way gaming will go back to being for gamers instead of appeasing people from different entertainment values.

 

[mega lenin]

When I first saw this thread it read to me, "Why Skyrim sucked me off and how i could have enjoyed it more." So I clicked it very hastily to suddenly realize it's just devolving into another nostalgia glasses Morrowind was better thread. So disappointing, I was hoping for something more ribald.

Anyway Bethesda's latest TES game was a step in the right direction for design in some respects. First they fixed the skill leveling system so that leveling was no longer a chore in obsessive accounting. Gone are the days when we'd count how many level gains we put in blunt, athletics, and sneak before we used some major skill to gain a level and get max bonuses to stats. That was such tedium and annoyance. I want to pick my play style, adventure, and master it, without worrying that I will gain levels too rapidly, be under attributed, and under armed against the newly leveled enemies by playing a game as a person should without spamming unnecessary skills. The drawback in the vanilla build is it did take away the feeling of specialization the older games had. Bringing back major skills and classes would be a nice touch, just don't have that god awful attribute system that encouraged spamming minor skills to boost stats each level up. Instead use a model like the realistic leveling mod where attributes are tied to the skill levels themselves with major skills mattering significantly more than minor.

Second this installment finally discovered that human heads don't generally look like mongoloid blocks of flesh. More effort was placed in character design aesthetics. The setting received equal aesthetic treatment and given the sheer number of interiors and dungeons, there is a lot less of the copy pasta maps that littered previous installments. However aesthetics aside this title suffers from the same character and world design problems of the past installments: Immersion and atmosphere. I can't state it hard enough that the Elder scrolls series has suffered from the same historical problem in every iteration I've played. I don't care about these people and, because of that I feel like I'm just hiking through the wilderness on my own. Skyrim is a land in the midst of total turmoil: a civil war rages, Elves wander the countryside persecuting Talos worshippers, and Dragons have risen from their graves attacking villages and holds mercilessly. This is a crisis that rivals the Black Plague of the 14th century and yet townsfolk of all stripes would rather ask me if I've been to the cloud district or that they used to be an adventurer before they took an arrow to the knee or some other random banality that doesn't at all establish a tone for this world or the current locality. Outside a few introductory cut scenes each town and city has to establish some flavor the problems of the actual world seem distant as if they were happening on Tatooine and not Skyrim. Sure townspeople in imperial holds will ***** about stormcloaks and likewise in Stormcloak holds, but we never really witness any purposeful reasons for these enmities. Never do we see Stormcloaks plunder some poor folk's farm for supplies while he begs at swordpoint that they leave him something to survive on. We never see Imperials rounding up military aged people for internment as possible Stormcloaks while their mothers' scream for justice. We are never given any opportunity to form our own impression on the world based on what we witness. We can only form it based on what NPC's tell us.

And that's where the design problem is. NPC's are still being treated as quest and information receptacles rather than being written as individuals with foibles and viewpoints. We don't see their suffering we are told about it and told what we can do for them. It suffers from that George Lucas scripting problem where we are being told about characters and their emotions and motivations, because the writer can't figure out how to convey those things through us actually experiencing them. Part of this is due to the sheer number of NPC's that need to be written for. But the main problem lies in the fact that it seems the designers look at them from the perspective of the NPC as a mere quest receptacle rather than as a character, and rather than as an integral part of this tapestry that is the world. They need to be part of the game's overall tone and conflict, otherwise the audience will have a hard time giving a shit about them or the world they inhabit.

Elder Scrolls does a great job creating lore and canon that is unified and deep, but the lack of story immersion and atmosphere prevents many players from really getting into it. If I don't care that much about the world in front of me why should I care about its underlying culture and beliefs. Its delivery is also pretty hamfisted, generally delivered in text dumps in books or from npc's should I ask. But culture is everywhere in people's everyday lives, and it would be nice if the world reflected that in more ways. Bards, temples, and taverns are so underutilized in these regards. Bards walk around spouting in the oddest cadence the same three preset songs rather mechanically. NPC's around them don't care they just sit in idle animations staring at their drinks. No one really gossips. There are never any drinking games, or storytelling, or drinking songs, or really anything than drinking in what seems to be brooding silence. No wonder this world seems so empty and ego-centric (i.e. the world revolves around you). You go to the temple and the priest just stands there waiting to info dump you about their god. Rarely do we see them shepherd their flock, conduct rites, or even preach. The only exception that I've seen is the Talos guy in Whiterun who rants the same four sentences over and over again in a loop.

Anyway I could go on but the Tl;dr version is Skyrim is prettier and better balanced than previous iterations (although I would agree sneak is OP mainly due to ai), but suffers from many of the story immersion and atmosphere problems of previous titles.

 

[Mister K]

Its not on PC is it? Because mods fix all that. Without mods, skyrim really is bland. 99% of all its praise is from PC.

Can't you feel that there is something... Awkward? When the game can only be considered playable only after great ammount of modification from community, when the basic product is DULL and BORING and BLAND, doesn't it mean that the game is... far from being good?
That is my problem with Bethesda games. I will f***ing NOT pay 60 USD again for unfinished, unlikable without mods piece of demo (sandbox, voices, basic models and effects included), that any normal dev would get sh*t for (i.e. EA), but big B somehow is always PRAISED for. Does not compute.

That's because most of EA games doesn't allow modding because "gasp" that would take away profits from their constant DLC packs. I don't think people would hate EA nearly as much if they just let the players decide how they want to play the games they pay for and not have some big corporation try to do anything possible to make sure they make the most money possible. Which often comes at the expense of gamers. The last thing I bought from EA was Dragon Age Ultimate Edition and that was years ago. And the last thing I bought from EA before that was an Ultima Online expansion called Age of Shadows that was released around 2000-2001.

EA has ruined way too many franchises, including the legendary Ultima series because of profit. And the sooner EA dies, the better off the gaming industry will be. Honestly, what's best for the gaming industry is for movies and music to get back on top. That way gaming will go back to being for gamers instead of appeasing people from different entertainment values.

So, by your logic, every evil that is lesser evil than EA may be considered good and must be treated as such? Because releasing buggy and dull games that REQUIRE consumer-made mods to even be playable is a-okay, as long as it's done by "Not-EA"? Okay, I'll consider this opinion while I am playing Jade Empire, Planescape:Torment or Persona 4.

 

[Ragnar47183]

I always find it funny how people complain about Skyrims world or that you can use mods to make it even better. I would like to address these 2 points.

1.) Skyrim has an amazingly complex and in depth lore behind its world and the part you actually explore in the game is quite vast and amazing. I would like you to point to an example of a game as big as the world is in Skyrim with more population. That doesn't even take into account the numerous mods you can get to add more wildlife, lusher trees/foliage, and more npcs.

2.) A game that needs (subjective) mods to be good fails as a game? How? What is your opinion on games like Dota or Counter Strike that started as mods? Why do you feel like tons of FREE packs that add content to a game is bad?

I had mods for graphics for each town, foliage, snow, water, wildlife, weather, sound, an entire magic based mod for a revamped magic system, more death animations, a dueling system, tons of new armor packs, a crafting mod, and some house packs that I added into the game. This was after spending 100 hours on the vanilla game doing all the quests and such.

What resulted was one of the best looking, most expansive, and most fun games I have every played. Mods are amazing and should be embraced in every game, especially open world games.

 

[Ragnar47183]

So, by your logic, every evil that is lesser evil than EA may be considered good and must be treated as such? Because releasing buggy and dull games that REQUIRE consumer-made mods to even be playable is a-okay, as long as it's done by "Not-EA"? Okay, I'll consider this opinion while I am playing Jade Empire, Planescape:Torment or Persona 4.

The word 'require' is used subjectively in your statement and is not fact.

I played vanilla Skyrim for about 120 hours before modding it.

 

[Mister K]

So, by your logic, every evil that is lesser evil than EA may be considered good and must be treated as such? Because releasing buggy and dull games that REQUIRE consumer-made mods to even be playable is a-okay, as long as it's done by "Not-EA"? Okay, I'll consider this opinion while I am playing Jade Empire, Planescape:Torment or Persona 4.

The word 'require' is used subjectively in your statement and is not fact.

I played vanilla Skyrim for about 120 hours before modding it.

Well, played doesn't mean enjoyed, but I'll assume that you did. To this I can answer that to each their own (or however it is pronounced correctly).
Although it is hard to think that it is NOT required when whenever I read something similar to this topic (i.e. Skyrim is bad) the first counter-argument is, most of the time, "it's better with mods".

I always find it funny how people complain about Skyrims world or that you can use mods to make it even better. I would like to address these 2 points.

1.) Skyrim has an amazingly complex and in depth lore behind its world and the part you actually explore in the game is quite vast and amazing. I would like you to point to an example of a game as big as the world is in Skyrim with more population. That doesn't even take into account the numerous mods you can get to add more wildlife, lusher trees/foliage, and more npcs.

2.) A game that needs (subjective) mods to be good fails as a game? How? What is your opinion on games like Dota or Counter Strike that started as mods? Why do you feel like tons of FREE packs that add content to a game is bad?

I had mods for graphics for each town, foliage, snow, water, wildlife, weather, sound, an entire magic based mod for a revamped magic system, more death animations, a dueling system, tons of new armor packs, a crafting mod, and some house packs that I added into the game. This was after spending 100 hours on the vanilla game doing all the quests and such.

What resulted was one of the best looking, most expansive, and most fun games I have every played. Mods are amazing and should be embraced in every game, especially open world games.

The thing about mods is that it is not a bad thing and nobody here will say so. However, if game only gets good with mods it is hard to think of this game as of something completely finished and not thrown into the market in unfinished state.

Those "free packs" you've got? Made by the same guys like you, not actual devs. Meaning guys like you and me had to add content, while developers simply threw you a 60$ demo with toolbox to tweak it.

I just do not see the appeal of such games. Why would I play this one, when I can play a game, developers of which actually care dabout their creation enough to finish it? Why would I play this and not, I dunno, Devil May Cry 3, or Witcher, or Shadow of the Colossus?

What I am going for is that I do not think that releasing such game is bad thing, since devs had the goal to release easily modable environment, etc., but paying full-price for it? No thanks. I'd rather play something finished.

EDIT: Games that started as a mod? Sure, why not, DOtA 2 is fine. And itself doesn't require any mods, only free characters to be released by actual devs in the future.

 

[Ragnar47183]

So, by your logic, every evil that is lesser evil than EA may be considered good and must be treated as such? Because releasing buggy and dull games that REQUIRE consumer-made mods to even be playable is a-okay, as long as it's done by "Not-EA"? Okay, I'll consider this opinion while I am playing Jade Empire, Planescape:Torment or Persona 4.

The word 'require' is used subjectively in your statement and is not fact.

I played vanilla Skyrim for about 120 hours before modding it.

Well, played doesn't mean enjoyed, but I'll assume that you did. To this I can answer that to each their own (or however it is pronounced correctly).
Although it is hard to think that it is NOT required when whenever I read something similar to this topic (i.e. Skyrim is bad) the first counter-argument is, most of the time, "it's better with mods".

Skyrim seems to get a lot of flack for the bugs in the game but people tend to skip over the other aspects. Does it have more bugs than your average release? Yes. It sure does. However, the size and scope of the game dictate that. You can't compare something like Skyrim to something like Devil May Cry because the scope is much smaller.

Other than the bugs the quality is completely subjective. For some people it just doesnt work for them and thats fine. No game around can cater to every single person. Mods allow you to get the closest to the experience you want to get from the game.

Also I just wanted to point out that "Its better with mods" does not equal "The base game is bad."

I always find it funny how people complain about Skyrims world or that you can use mods to make it even better. I would like to address these 2 points.

1.) Skyrim has an amazingly complex and in depth lore behind its world and the part you actually explore in the game is quite vast and amazing. I would like you to point to an example of a game as big as the world is in Skyrim with more population. That doesn't even take into account the numerous mods you can get to add more wildlife, lusher trees/foliage, and more npcs.

2.) A game that needs (subjective) mods to be good fails as a game? How? What is your opinion on games like Dota or Counter Strike that started as mods? Why do you feel like tons of FREE packs that add content to a game is bad?

I had mods for graphics for each town, foliage, snow, water, wildlife, weather, sound, an entire magic based mod for a revamped magic system, more death animations, a dueling system, tons of new armor packs, a crafting mod, and some house packs that I added into the game. This was after spending 100 hours on the vanilla game doing all the quests and such.

What resulted was one of the best looking, most expansive, and most fun games I have every played. Mods are amazing and should be embraced in every game, especially open world games.

The thing about mods is that it is not a bad thing and nobody here will say so. However, if game only gets good with mods it is hard to think of this game as of something completely finished and not thrown into the market in unfinished state.

Was Skyrim released in an unfinished state? I dont believe so. It didnt have missing mechanics or aspects to it. The only issue was some bugs that were run into and again thats only due to the scope of the project. I would also argue the point that Skyrim only gets good with mods. It gets better sure, but that doesn't mean it was bad beforehand.

Those "free packs" you've got? Made by the same guys like you, not actual devs. Meaning guys like you and me had to add content, while developers simply threw you a 60$ demo with toolbox to tweak it.

And? You realize devs are people too right? People as a collective have proven they can create some pretty amazing stuff because its out of passion.

Anyone who calls Vanilla Skyrim a 'demo' is really out of touch with reality. As I said before, I played and enjoyed base Skyrim for over 100 hours before modding it. My girlfriend played about 40 hours before modding it.

Demos are a short experience designed to showcase a game. Skyrim is a full narrative with all of the game play mechanics in place. It is by no means a demo and the devs surely worked a very long time developing it.

I just do not see the appeal of such games. Why would I play this one, when I can play a game, developers of which actually care dabout their creation enough to finish it? Why would I play this and not, I dunno, Devil May Cry 3, or Witcher, or Shadow of the Colossus?

I would suggest that Skyrim is simply not your type of game. Based on your examples you prefer more story heavy, closed world experience. Which is fine! However you should realize that just because you arent a fan of the open world/fantasy setting of Skyrim does not mean its a bad game.

What I am going for is that I do not think that releasing such game is bad thing, since devs had the goal to release easily modable environment, etc., but paying full-price for it? No thanks. I'd rather play something finished.

Again this is entirely subjective. You feel as though its not worth a $60.00 price tag. I feel as though its worth much more than that.

Honestly comparing it to a lot of other AAA and indie releases I would argue that its better value than a lot of those games even at the $60.00 mark.

EDIT: Games that started as a mod? Sure, why not, DOtA 2 is fine. And itself doesn't require any mods, only free characters to be released by actual devs in the future.

What if those characters were released by people instead of devs? Would that bring your experience/expectations down?

 

[Mister K]

EDIT: Games that started as a mod? Sure, why not, DOtA 2 is fine. And itself doesn't require any mods, only free characters to be released by actual devs in the future.

What if those characters were released by people instead of devs? Would that bring your experience/expectations down?

No, I didn't mean it like that. What I meant when I was making this statement is that devs are the ones who are actually trying to prolong the life of this game and release free additional content.

As for everything else. Yes, I do prefer it when I actually have either well-made story with good gameplay or ABSOLUTE freedom like in P&P RPG's (I mean, why the hell can't I become the yarl of Whiterun by plotting clever scheme? Or something else, except for lvl up and slay everything that oposes you and get bounty for it). And I think TES 6 will be a lot better than Skyrim if developers concentrate on intensive (i.e. quality based) development instead of extensive (i.e. quantity based).

But, really, who cares? You'll continue liking what you do, same goes for me. I'll continue with playing something more fitting for me and will avoid jumping on the TES 6 hype wagon in the future.