Why SOPA was wrong, but Megaupload's takedown is right.
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I'd personally add that the another major difference is that this is being treated identically to any other crime. They've gathered evidence, arrested those suspected of the crime following a court order, prevented the operation from continuing, and it's going to trial with the inherent rights and possibility of subsequent appeal that that would entail. A more "normal" example would be they have evidence that someone is making cocaine in a storage unit, arrest the perpetrators, close down the factory, and prosecute - fairly normal stuff.Thunderous Cacophony said:
SOPA, on the other hand, is the equivalent of permitting bakeries to burn down buildings it suspects manufacture illegal drugs
Of course, you are right: MORALLY, taking down Megaupload was the right thing to do. The problem is: from a legal standpoint, it is highly questionable. That is actually the problem about the US authorities' handling of many problems: they claim the moral high ground and then proceed to ignore national, international and foreign laws to enforce it.
I for one would rather live in a lawful immoral world than a lawless moral one, which is why I still oppose the MU takedown.
Edit: Also, politically, it does not come at a good time.
I for one would rather live in a lawful immoral world than a lawless moral one, which is why I still oppose the MU takedown.
Edit: Also, politically, it does not come at a good time.
that is true but if I were to start selling stolen dvd's on the street I would be stopped investigated and then tried they wouldn't allow me to keep doing it until I go to courtseraphy said:
Not everything on Megaupload was pirate material. A fair few people uploaded their own stuff on their, and that's been taken away from them because *some* of the site's users are pirates.
That's not right at all.
They have every right to combat piracy but taking down the WHOLE site is something they SHOULDN'T be allowed to get away with.
That's not right at all.
They have every right to combat piracy but taking down the WHOLE site is something they SHOULDN'T be allowed to get away with.
If a man gets arraigned on sex trafficking charges, they don't let him keep his brothels running while waiting for a sentence. They can't let them keep running the service when they're on trial for running that service.seraphy said:
If the charges end up getting dropped, Megaupload can potentially seek damages for lost revenue. It's unlikely they'll win, but the option is there.
So, no. While the charges are being pursued it's completely reasonable for them to shut down the site.
Whether or not the charges are valid... well that's another topic altogether.
Well, it's perfectly legal and, once again, they are dealing with this in exactly the same way as any other crime. To use the brothel example, if the owner had a legal massage parlour which he was using as a front for the brothel, the massage parlour would be shut down.Amarok said:
Plus, one can flip it around. Is using legitimate, legal customers, to hide illegal activities right? Perhaps complaints are better directed at Megaupload for failing to tackle the posting of copyrighted material. Having a go at the FBI for enforcing the law and taking down an illegal operation is like having a go at a baker for providing tasty snacks. It's sort of their job...
Well the two aren't ENTIRELY comparable as someone might have been relying on megaupload as a means to store their own work. Granted if that was their only form of back-up it was a bit daft, but still, when a client's massage parlour is shut down, it's not like he, uh... loses the past benefit of... previous... massages. See, this is what happens when you're too liberal with similes!GonvilleBromhead said:
As for the "using legit customers to hide illegal activities" bit, do we know that's what megaupload are doing? That's a genuine question as I haven't brushed up on this subject to ever such a lot of depth, but there's a massive difference between megaupload deliberately hiding pirate activities, and users simply taking advantage of the service to upload copyrighted materials. The latter should be stopped of course, but shutting down the whole site ain't the way to go, so I suppose the rightness/wrongness of this will depend on what happens AFTER this investigation malarky is sorted out.
I appreciate the difference, however I would argue that the same would be the case had the "front" been a bank. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some compensatory action available at some point in the future for those who used the site for purely legitimate reasons - though it may be only available to those who have incurred legitimate financial loss due to the takedown. If there is no recourse available, I'd agree that it would be a bit iffy. That said, in cases regarding criminal conspiracy and the like, it is not abnormal for even the legitimate business concerns of those arrested to be seized.Amarok said:
Regarding whether they were merely fronting or whether this was genuine misuse, I'd agree it's a case of "wait until the trial", as at the moment the full details aren't really available. It is possible to argue that aspect, was merely my point,
I hasten to add, I do not think that such takedowns are a particularly effective means of combating piracy, and I do feel it was unfortunate that many were caught in the cross fire (so to speak). But, if found guilty, I'd personally reserve my ire at those who put their customers at risk in order to do something illegal and line their own pockets.
Fine then let me extend it: lets say the man runs a Hotel and is charged with using it to run sex trafficking. Point is, it'd still be shut down. They're not going to let them continue to run the business they claim is being used for illegal activities.seraphy said:
Uhh... I feel the need to make you cite this as a former philosophy major... I mean... unless I mistaken Plato's mentor Socrates was murdered unjustly by the law so I find it rather hard to believe that he would be down to kill anyone who disobeys the law.Deathmageddon said:
Even if Plato did say this, it's an absolutely stupid statement, as the laws are made by men, men who are easily corruptible and very capable of doing things not in the best interest of society. How do you feel about the multi-million dollar corporate bail-outs which were shortly followed by the current situation we have where our government has to allocate the money to keep running? Or how about the fact that the majority prisoners in America are in jail on drug charges when alcohol causes more deaths each year than all other narcotics combined?
Oh, and also, Plato didn't live in a world where the corporation was legally considered a person, so no, I don't feel his views on the law are still relevant. I believe Socrates views on wisdom and knowledge, and the way people will fool themselves into believe they have both, however, is.
I feel like by repeating your "you're stupid" argument while not presenting any counter points from any stance of knowledge other than rhetoric you've illustrated your own ignorance.Eternal Taros said:
For the record, it IS very rare that designers, musicians, writers, and directors will see that much money returned from increased sales unless it's a rather high number as they get paid for working, and then only get a small portion of royalties from the sales. It is the money men, the publishers, who have little to nothing to do with the creative process (unless it's ruining it with their inexperienced input), who get rich off of sales figures.
Our current system of Capatalism is designed to reward just having money to invest, and in a big way it punishes the creative minds who crafted the media we enjoy.
I should know, I'm a musician and music business major.
Don't tell someone they should be killed for their views, that's just childish and shows how closed minded and ignorant you are. It's ironic you were calling him a psychopath while then saying he should be killed... Rather psychotic isn't that?
For the record, while there are a number of people on this site who actually see the world as it is and have a reasonable view on piracy, so many more people on this site illustrate a brain-washed, psychotically violent defense of a legal system that doesn't support or defend anyone aside from corporations and millionaires simply out of national pride that it makes me sick.
Wake. The. Fuck. Up.
To illustrate my point:
This piracy thing is a big issue in Washington, meanwhile every 2 minutes in the US someone is sexually assaulted with 15 out of 16 rapists never spending a day in jail, also the poverty rate in this country is reaching all time highs with 46.2 million people in poverty as of September of last year (and it's not getting better if you're paying attention).
I haven't heard any laws attempting to fix either of these major social issues, however we have two laws circulating (with more brewing now that they've been shut down) to prevent piracy, which at the end of the day is mainly an issue the wealthy have (hence why SOPA and PIPA have both had massive public outcries to be stopped, while Hollywood and major corporations seek to monetarily punish politicians who are just listening to the people, which is their fucking job).
What kind of picture does this paint for you? Who is our government looking out for?
Wake. The. Fuck. Up.
To illustrate my point:
This piracy thing is a big issue in Washington, meanwhile every 2 minutes in the US someone is sexually assaulted with 15 out of 16 rapists never spending a day in jail, also the poverty rate in this country is reaching all time highs with 46.2 million people in poverty as of September of last year (and it's not getting better if you're paying attention).
I haven't heard any laws attempting to fix either of these major social issues, however we have two laws circulating (with more brewing now that they've been shut down) to prevent piracy, which at the end of the day is mainly an issue the wealthy have (hence why SOPA and PIPA have both had massive public outcries to be stopped, while Hollywood and major corporations seek to monetarily punish politicians who are just listening to the people, which is their fucking job).
What kind of picture does this paint for you? Who is our government looking out for?
If I ran a brothel in the back of a restaurant, I'm pretty sure they would shut the food service portion down too while they investigated the illegal activity, especially if the "legitimate" business was essentially just a front to cover up the law breaking.seraphy said:
Megaupload was only functional, let alone successful, because of the massive amount of illegal activity that went into it, of which copyright infringement was only a small part anyway. That site was rotten to the core between the piracy, money laundering, and racketeering that was going on to sustain it and the feds had every right to take it down. If you're against SOPA, which I hope you would be, you shoot yourself in the foot by defending those who CLEARLY are breaking reasonable laws. It's like fighting for marijuana legalization and then complaining when the feds bust a meth lab; it delegitimizes the moral high ground that we need to have in order to come off as a reasoned and diligent community.