Why the Geth Heretic situation in ME2 was even more complicated than usually given credit for...

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bz316

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Mass Effect 2 has presented us with a wide plethora of difficult ideas and decisions to mull over (as great art is apt to do). From the questionable morality of destroying or saving the genophage cure, to preserving or blowing up the Collector Base, ME2 really threw some complicated shit at the player. None more so, however, than the question of the Geth Heretic destroy/re-write.

At first glance, this is already a deeply complicated and tricky philosophical decision. The way it's essentially presented is the question of which is preferable: freedom of will or basic survival? Which fate is worst: unwilling belief or genocide? Even at its topmost layer of consideration, players were already faced with an intensely personal choice, forcing them to consider their own deeply held convictions and beliefs in idealism versus basic pragmatism. But the truth is, the problem goes even further than this.

Consider how the Geth are presented to players. The Geth are not a conglomeration of individuals, but neither are they a true collective. They are a vast collection of limited programs that conglomerate to form a "Gestalt Intelligence". In one sense they are a single being, only able to identify "individual" geth in regards to "platforms", housing a certain number of VI's to perform set functions, technically ceasing to exist as individual persons once they upload their experiences at hubs, yet shown to have, in these "platforms", a limited form of individuality (yet to be truly determined though). Therefore, it is not unreasonable to consider all Geth as one person (described by EDI as a "single mind expanding the breadth of the galactic arm"). Even the heretics were still viewed as part of this one Geth (confirmed by Shepard's statement "In a way, what you do to them, you do to yourselves"). In this sense, the two Geth factions seem less like separate persons, simply two personalities within the same person. In this sense, the problem of re-write becomes even more complicated because now it's no longer just a problem of philosophy. Maybe it's a problem of psychology. In that sense, would re-writing the Geth be akin to simply curing a personality disorder? But then the question becomes even more complicated when Legion is shocked to discover that these heretic Geth have severed their connection to the other Geth, hiding new data and subroutines. In a sense, putting themselves on the path to becoming a new "person." Is it wrong to stifle or destroy the creation of that new person? And if you treat them as separate factions, but still "single minds," is wiping them out still genocide, or is it more like homicide (killing one person)? Opinions people?
 

Dogstile

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If you want to go along this line of questioning, you can also look at killing off the heretic geth as a form of abortion, killing off a new singular being before it has a chance to develop and grow.

Figured i'd throw a curveball in here
 

Fr]anc[is

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Every time I watch that EC I pick out something else they might have got wrong. I'm 99% sure it's never said the heretics will forget what they did, the virus will just forcibly change their mind. Then when the heretics reconnect with the other geth, all the knowledge and thoughts they generated will merge with the true geth. What's to stop this combination from doing something worse? And also EC said the geth were trying to kill/save Shep. That was just incorrect.
 

powergamer8

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My first playthrough I chose so kill them rather then rewrite the, the choice took me 52 minutes of staring at my computer screen to make. After I picked saving the geth heretics it gave me renegade points, so unfair. If i was in the heretic?s position I would rather be killed. I would rather take the red pill over the blue pill since the situation kinda reminds me of the matrix.

P.S. Is it just me or do the Geth remind anyone of the Borg in some ways?
 

Fugitive Panda

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Brainwashing to the degree you would in this situation seems, to me, a lot worse than the alternative.

The right to choose what you believe is what separates sentient, self-aware beings from the rest, and to take that choice away from them would be a crime against not just nature, but the nature of the universe and life itself.

It's just frustrating that when you choose to destroy them, Shepard gives some obviously Renegade line about how they'll just come back otherwise. It's a bit deeper than that, Shep.
 

Blue_vision

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I liked this problem a lot. While my Sheppard was like 75% paragon, and I think all the other major issues I took were paragon-sided, I still chose to blow up the station.

I didn't really see it as an issue of free will, but I guess that's mostly what it was. The Heretics made a certain choice, and I wouldn't go against what they wanted; they knew that their future was black or white. And I wouldn't try to convert them to my side, because I'm not going to convert people onto my side if they fundamentally disagreed with or simply didn't see my side.

I also thought about how the Geth functioned as a race. What kind of gain would there be in society to just have another Geth outpost in the Galaxy? They don't truly have emotions so what capacity do they have to "enjoy" life as organics do? Would that single outpost really be able to get to the root of the Geth problem? No, not really.


That said, I found the keeping the genophage cure a similar predicament. I saw the Krogan society as quite similar to how humans work, and how the world's turning as it is. We're slowly being able to lower birth rates socially, would it not be possible for something like that to eventually happen to the Krogan? Curing the genophage at the same time could turn the Krogan into a wonderful, prospering society.
Of course, there's a pretty big flip side. If the information was to get out, or the genophage was cured at the wrong time, it could be disastrous for the galaxy. I still chose to keep it, mainly because it left options open without committing to anything.
 

CleverCover

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It's good to know I wasn't the only one that sat for over half an hour going over different possibilities.

At first, I rewrote them. Paragon points and a larger force against the reapers.
Next save, I picture both Kaidan and Ghost!Ashley being highly upset with me saving them and I decide to destroy them. Besides the fact that my Shep hated them too.
Next save, I save them. Larger force against the Reapers is more important than revenge.
Next save, I wipe them all out. Renegade points and a satisfactory revenge.

I realize I didn't factor in the brainwashing vs dying with pride until much later, but I don't think that would have helped.

Only one of my Sheps treated them as anything more than Saren's tool. And with them in power...
 

Cooperblack

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Best thing about this quest is that it illuminates how truly bad the Paragon/Renegade system is.
 

wasalp

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powergamer8 said:
My first playthrough I chose so kill them rather then rewrite the, the choice took me 52 minutes of staring at my computer screen to make. After I picked saving the geth heretics it gave me renegade points, so unfair. If i was in the heretic?s position I would rather be killed. I would rather take the red pill over the blue pill since the situation kinda reminds me of the matrix.

P.S. Is it just me or do the Geth remind anyone of the Borg in some ways?
maybe because of the legion thing yes. But their primary drive is not assimilation, it's living a peaceful life.
 

MercurySteam

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I found it strange that Bioware expected us believe to virtually every Geth I had encounted over the last two games were under the influence of the Reapers (save for perhaps the Geth in Tali's recruitment mission).
 

Light 086

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As Legion said: "when two geth are looking at the same thing, one will see what another doesn't" and the fact that the programs were divided when having to make a decision on whether to wipe them out or re-write them indicates individuality.

So I guess it's genocide... or recycling lol.

But for this debate I'll agree with Legion in which re-writing isn't that bad because he says: You should judge a species within their merits and not your own values, to do so is racist(to sum up what he said at the beginning of that mission). I know Samara/Morinth says otherwise, but it's Legions own species, so I'd say his opinion takes precedence. But then he never could make up his own mind so I dunno. It's complicated since you can't factor in your opinion according to him, but he seems to divided by the whole brain washing vs. killing them as well as a person would. So I guess it all comes down to your personal opinion because logic can't really be factored into this. Brain-washing isn't exactly nice as stated by Samara/Morinth: "they are still dead just in the same shell". So it shouldn't be a paragon option.

Okay shit now I'm a bit confused... guess I really never thought about it this much before now.

Anyway I have covered all the angles in this game good/bad and male/female characters so I have right now 4 Shepards. So I blew up the geth station twice and brain-washed them twice. So I'm in the clear if we decide that one is bad and the other is good, unless they are both bad... or are they?
 

DeathsHands

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...it's pretty black and whitely (adjectivized!) given. It's only really complicated if you over-think it and apply human values. Geth work on a different level.

Seems that this happens to every major decision in ME2. People start to think on the pretty broadly given options. Remember you're working on the writer's medium, not your own.
 

Blind Sight

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See, I just passed the ball and asked Legion what he thought and went with it. It/They probably know more about geth philosophy and morality then I do.

Cooperblack said:
Best thing about this quest is that it illuminates how truly bad the Paragon/Renegade system is.
This here is the REAL problem.
 

RicoGrey

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was rather simple for me, I never worried about paragon or renegade, I simply did what I thought was best to defeat the reapers, and that included a larger geth army.
 

easternflame

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By reprograming them you would change how they live. I find this to be incredibly unfair. If someone came to me, and said, I will erase your mind, and make you catholic, or you will die, I'd say, kill me, by all means, I don't want to be a tool in something I don't believe in.
Just an opinion folks.
BTW Considering that geth is a living creature, its homicide given that its one mind

PS FUCKING CAPTCHA
 

Lightcycle

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First let me say that according to how the situation was presented in the game the rouge geth were already brainwashed by the reapers so their freewill had already been tampered with (at least this is how I interpreted what information I was given by legion) also the virus was not completely removing their freewill it was changing how they stood on a specific important issue which denies them choice but not freewill in the long term (debatable)

A similar decision to this once came up in an tapbletop RPG a friend of mine ran.

So I ask you this, if you could remove from the human race the desire to beat/rape/murder/abuse children, would you do it. You are not changing us in any other way but making it so that no man or woman or other child would ever even consider harming a child it would forever and always be totally incomprehensible to us. Altering our fundamental programing (if you will) and denying us freewill in one area of our lives. Would you do it?

so not freewill denied but freewill restrained.

I brainwashed the geth, I'd brainwash humanity too...
 

DeathsHands

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easternflame said:
By reprograming them you would change how they live. I find this to be incredibly unfair.
The thing is that the Geth don't really work on the same level as humans. Rewriting the Geth and brainwashing a human being are two totally different things.
 

theComposer

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DeathsHands said:
easternflame said:
By reprograming them you would change how they live. I find this to be incredibly unfair.
The thing is that the Geth don't really work on the same level as humans. Rewriting the Geth and brainwashing a human being are two totally different things.
This is how I felt. Despite Legion being more of a character than any of the other Geth, I still saw the race as a whole as little more than robots; machines, computers. Intelligent machines, but still machines. I chose to use the virus because I didn't see it the same as brainwashing a group of humans. For me, the decision simply boiled down to whether or not I want more Geth on my side to fight the Reapers, so the choice was obvious. When applied to humans, the question is incredibly deep and thought-provoking, but when talking about a race of androids, I didn't feel it had the same impact.
 

easternflame

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DeathsHands said:
easternflame said:
By reprograming them you would change how they live. I find this to be incredibly unfair.
The thing is that the Geth don't really work on the same level as humans. Rewriting the Geth and brainwashing a human being are two totally different things.
Well yeah, maybe you're right, It'd be like rewriting a computer.Still I would prefer to kill them, COuld be a bigger threat later.