Why was Dragon Age 2 so bad?

[RatRace123]

I didn't hate it, in fact, for the most part I liked it.

The wave after wave combat was annoying. And the repetitive dungeon layout was irritating. The new artstyle didn't do it for me, especially with the darkspawn.

But, I still liked a lot of it. Though the actual combat got old I did like the system, and if they were able to bring back the more tactical options found in Origins, I think it would be great.
And I liked how the story wasn't the usual "save the world" fare, I really dug the more intricate personal story. The pacing had problems, and by the end, the third act was just a mess, but I still really liked what they tried to do for the story.
And as always, the cast of party members was good, not quite as good as Origins, but still pretty good.

 

[Yearlongjester]

I've been reveling in the complaints on ME3's ending, and that's cool and all but I keep hearing people complain about DA2. I've played it and liked it well enough, all the zones were constantly reused and there wasn't much of an overall story but I loved the revamped combat and the frenemy thing. It seemed like they just streamlined and removed a lot of the junk and clutter. But when I hear things like "Completely destroyed the in-game universe" I get a little curious.

Yes I did use the search bar and didn't find anything. Also can we try to keep the conversation here about Dragon Age? I get that everyone's pissed at ME right now but that's not the point of this thread.

Ok i will do this one more time:
- The Combat was horrible:
There was no tactic to it. Every tactic that you could have used was instantly destroyed because enemys just spawned everywhere. Many usual tactics where completely useless, like a tank againt normal enemys, because it didn't matter if you made some enemys attack you because they will be dead in one second and replaced by another clone of them.
- The visuals were very bad:
I don't know why Bioware did this, but with Origins you had this great game, with old but nice visuals and an mature amount of bloodiness (Not too much though.)
And then you have DA 2 where everybody looks more like an anime character and enemys actually explode when dying. Seriously, who finds this stuff cool? This amount of blood is just stupid.
- The story was bollocks
Seriously Bioware, its not Drama, when everybody removes his brain in the last act. And give me some goal at least.
- Enviroments
I don't think i have to say something about this.

Overall i can say:
It was made for the wrong people.
Dragon Age Origins was supposed to adress the kind of players who wanted a more complex gaming experience and don't get bored when something doesn't explode for 5 seconds.
And that's what many people wanted and that's why it was so succesfull.
Then Bioware said: "Let's fuck all that" and decided to make an action game for the 5 - seconds - explosion crowd instead and naming it Dragon Age.
It wouldn't have gotten so much hatred if Bioware hadn't lured many people into buying it by naming it "Dragon Age".

PS: Oh and while certain lies about what a game will have are in discussion, Bioware said that Dragon Age 2 will have finishing Moves for mages and Archers, too.
What do we get: NO FINISHING MOVES AT ALL!
Those were awesome in Origins!

We'll just have to disagree on that. I really enjoyed the combat even if they threw too much of it all over the place. Then again I never cared for the "tactical" combat of origins, I just threw magic at things and they fall dead.

DA2 looked MUCH better than DA:O, more color and more distinct. Yeah there were some problems and it wasn't perfect but I could stand looking at it for more than 3 seconds without getting a headache or trying to differentiate that brown blob from the other brown blob. As for the argument of "Mature amount of bloodiness", the massive amount of blood was over the top in BOTH games. Seriously, I get in a bar fight in the beginning to get Leliana and she, myself, Alistair and Morrigan were COVERED in it.

I want to get at the combat and "Tactical" aspect of it, was it really fun? Was it truly enjoyable to spend FOREVER making traps and poisons and carefully positioning your guys? A famous quote from WWI goes something like this: "No strategy, no matter how grand, lasts beyond the first wave" In a real "tactical" battle your men aren't under your direct command every single second so you can micromanage their every move, as well as there's no point in high strategy to take care of mooks. That whole set up feels better for an RTS, not a single player RPG. Point being I didn't want to have to spend time in this exciting fantasy adventure setting up contingency plans, I wanted to get my warriors in to soak up damage and myself and Morrigan to lightning spam. And for them to move out of harms way and drink a damn potion without me having to tell them directly or put it on their to-do list.

I'm honestly not trying to flame or troll you, I just think Bioware realized that a lot of DA:O was clunky and inefficient and tried to remedy that. I enjoyed it, but clearly it wasn't what you expected.

 

[Wayneguard]

I thought the story and especially the characters were the game's strong points. It was in the "revamped" combat that the game fell apart for me. It wasn't really a problem with the PCs or their combat mechanics; rather, it was the spawning waves of enemies, the reused dungeons, the completely superfluous combo abilities, the neutering (to the point of uselessness) of attack and defense stats, etc... To me, DA:O absolutely nailed combat. I didn't really see the need for improvement, so naturally I was disappointed with the changes.

But like I said, characters were fantastic and the story, though a little disjointed, was not disappointing. In fact, this topic has inspired me to go play DA2 again . All in all, it's not a bad game at all.

Seriously, I get in a bar fight in the beginning to get Leliana and she, myself, Alistair and Morrigan were COVERED in it.

Well you are stabbing, hacking, slicing and otherwise severing the veins and arteries of 5+ thugs. I think a large amount of blood is to be expected.

 

[NiPah]

I'm honestly not trying to flame or troll you, I just think Bioware realized that a lot of DA:O was clunky and inefficient and tried to remedy that. I enjoyed it, but clearly it wasn't what you expected.

I'm a complete outsider, never having played DA:O or DA:2, but I'm going to go off of what you said in your first post to explain why people didn't like it:

They over used the zones.
There wasn't a good central storyline.
Combat was dumbed down to make it easier and more appealing to a mainstream audience alienating the fan base.
Somehow screwed up the lore or ingame universe of the first.

Also I want to point out that maybe you're not using the search bar correctly, since typing in the exact title of this thread nets me:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.282311-Poll-Is-Dragon-Age-2-a-bad-game
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.303651-Poll-Dragon-Age-2-was-it-that-bad
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.353651-Dragon-Age-2-is-superior-to-the-first-despite-what-everyone-says
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.281486-304-Evolution-Not-Deviation
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.299632-Was-Dragon-Age-II-really-that-bad
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.267166-Seriously-people-stop-the-bitching-Dragon-age-2-and-other-games
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.272536-Dragon-Age-2-what-makes-you-the-most-angry

 

[Yearlongjester]

Well you are stabbing, hacking, slicing and otherwise severing the veins and arteries of 5+ thugs. I think a large amount of blood is to be expected.

True but I was a mage, so I was in the back tossing fireballs. Still covered in blood.

Plus it's the same in DA2, so I don't know why it's suddenly LESS mature to have the exact same level of over the top blood for the same scenario.

 

[DirtyJunkieScum]

Did you read his post in this thread? He says that the game is worse than what he said in the review as he tried to be as objective as possible.

OK, so then maybe the score would also go down? Deciding that what he says now affects one bit of his review but not the other seems a bit off.

 

[Amaror]

We'll just have to disagree on that. I really enjoyed the combat even if they threw too much of it all over the place. Then again I never cared for the "tactical" combat of origins, I just threw magic at things and they fall dead.

DA2 looked MUCH better than DA:O, more color and more distinct. Yeah there were some problems and it wasn't perfect but I could stand looking at it for more than 3 seconds without getting a headache or trying to differentiate that brown blob from the other brown blob. As for the argument of "Mature amount of bloodiness", the massive amount of blood was over the top in BOTH games. Seriously, I get in a bar fight in the beginning to get Leliana and she, myself, Alistair and Morrigan were COVERED in it.

I want to get at the combat and "Tactical" aspect of it, was it really fun? Was it truly enjoyable to spend FOREVER making traps and poisons and carefully positioning your guys? A famous quote from WWI goes something like this: "No strategy, no matter how grand, lasts beyond the first wave" In a real "tactical" battle your men aren't under your direct command every single second so you can micromanage their every move, as well as there's no point in high strategy to take care of mooks. That whole set up feels better for an RTS, not a single player RPG. Point being I didn't want to have to spend time in this exciting fantasy adventure setting up contingency plans, I wanted to get my warriors in to soak up damage and myself and Morrigan to lightning spam. And for them to move out of harms way and drink a damn potion without me having to tell them directly or put it on their to-do list.

I'm honestly not trying to flame or troll you, I just think Bioware realized that a lot of DA:O was clunky and inefficient and tried to remedy that. I enjoyed it, but clearly it wasn't what you expected.

If you enjoyed it, that is good for you, but then again it underlines my statement.
Many people loved the tactical combat in Origins. You didn't but many many did.
They removed that, so you may like it, but i don't.
To be honest: The combat in DA 2 was incredible BORING. I don't know what people find in it. Sure it's fast, but that doesn't make it good.
It was just:
Klick on enemy - wait - klick on next enemy - wait - shout angry because a enemy just spawned behind your mage and killed it - klick on enemy - take potion - klick on enemy - die, because the potion takes hours till i can take another one.
Was that really fun to you?
I wasn't excited in the slightest. In Origins you often have to face stronger or more opponents and need to think about what you do in order to survive (On the highest difficulty at least). That was fun, that was enjoyable. I tried this difficulty in DA 2 and it just didn't work. You were supposed to use tactic but it wasn't possible because the spawning enemys and unbalanced cooldown times just ruined everything.
And i really liked the look of Origins. Sure it was brown, but it looked like a grim fantasy world should look.
You can't possible tell me that the Darkspawn and Elves look BETTER in DA 2. And i honestly don't saw the color everybodys talking about. Kirkwall was brown in most parts and white in the upper city.
The textures of every area were just horrible, just horrible.
And the anime look just made it look really silly.
Origins was bloody too, i agree, but it at least had some style to it.
I liked that you were covered in blood after the battle.
But at least the enemys didn't EXPLODE. Seriously who thinks thats Cool?
And even if you choped their head off the amount of blood coming out was still kind of realistic.

I didn't said the combat of telling everyone what to do is realistic, but it was oldschool combat in a modern game, an that's what many people wanted, that's why Origins sold so well and was highlighted as a masterpiece.
Sure that kind of combat is not for everybody, but i never was supposed to be a casual game for everybody.
Sadly they made DA 2 to be that said casual game and that's why many people are pissed.
Origins was a hope for many because it showed that older, but beloved game mechanics could still make a game profitable, but Bioware didn't got that.

 

[Furioso]

Is DA2 worse than DA:O that is Yes. But does that make it a BAD game. No it doesn't

Yeah, the bad writing, gameplay, artstyle, and level-design are what make it a bad game.

even with all those faults the person I had originally quoted only gave the game a 5.7 which IS NOT A BAD SCORE despite how people view scores right now. If its such a bad game then why the hell is it not a 3 or 4?

What world do you live in where a 5.7/10, or a 57% or an E in any school is a good score? A 7 (70%) is about a C which is indeed an average, but a 5.7/10? Not even close

 

[Chairman Miaow]

It wasn't so bad. Rabid fanboys complained alot because it wasn't a direct clone of Origins. There were a few things not so great about it like repeated dungeon layouts, and waves of mobs but it really wasn't that bad.

Vocal minority > content majority

While I thought it was still quite a fun game, those are by no means the only or even biggest problems about it. There's also the poor story (well, three stories), the lack of tactical gameplay, and the retconning of Ander's character.

 

[Krantos]

I want to get at the combat and "Tactical" aspect of it, was it really fun?Was it truly enjoyable to spend FOREVER making traps and poisons and carefully positioning your guys?

For some people, yes. For others, no. Different tastes my friend. Personally, I loved the tactical gameplay of origins and was really sad to see it scaled back in DA2. That's not why I hated the combat though, there were other reasons for that.

A famous quote from WWI goes something like this: "No strategy, no matter how grand, lasts beyond the first wave" In a real "tactical" battle your men aren't under your direct command every single second so you can micromanage their every move

It's a game, not real life here, killer. Realism isn't always fun.

Oh, just to point out though, a lot of the reason games like this have the pause function is because it makes up for the copious amount of training real warriors would go through. In the game, I have to tell my companion to go to x position, or use x attack. Real soldiers train for months so they know exactly what to do in battle and can be directed by a single command (even a drumbeat or bugle call back in the day).

And, while that quote is nice, I suggest reading some more military history (especially Napoleonic era wars). That quote basically means that a commander has to be ready for his plan to fall apart, because it generally will. A lot of times, in history, victory was accomplished as much by a commander keeping his head when things fall apart as much as by having a superior starting strategy.


Finally, there is a difference between tactics and strategy. I always cringe when people talk about Dragon age and the like as "strategic." It's not, its tactical. Total War is strategic.

 

[nackertash]

Because it was God of War Effect not Dragon age 2. Dragon age: Origins was one of my favorite games and then Dragon age 2 comes along, I am so excited and then I get THIS! It is mediocre at best and that doesn't fly in a Bioware game. Well, at least until EA took over.

Im just gonna say that God of War Effect sounds like a much better game then DA2

 

[Sexy Devil]

Basically this:
And these also sum it up:

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u424/bobjones666whattheheaven/1311983017461.jpg
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u424/bobjones666whattheheaven/1311982839703.jpg
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u424/bobjones666whattheheaven/1311982643840.jpg
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u424/bobjones666whattheheaven/1311983191524.jpg
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u424/bobjones666whattheheaven/1311982040283.jpg
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u424/bobjones666whattheheaven/1311982703972.jpg

Also make sure to read my Review for a detailed answer, although bear in mind I tried to be as "objective" as I possibly could at that time and my memories of it are even worse than that: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.271648-Dragon-Age-2-A-Review

Oh God, Bethany's hand. First time I saw that I jumped back in my seat a little out of surprise. Seriously, it looks more dead than Dumbledore's hand in the Half-Blood Prince.

Also I'll be back tomorrow night to post my comprehensive list of reasons why DA2 just isn't very good, but I've got uni in the morning so I've gotta sleep now.

 

[SadisticBrownie]

For me it was the reused environments and the dodgy combat. I loved the characters and story for the most part.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I've been reveling in the complaints on ME3's ending, and that's cool and all but I keep hearing people complain about DA2. I've played it and liked it well enough, all the zones were constantly reused and there wasn't much of an overall story but I loved the revamped combat and the frenemy thing. It seemed like they just streamlined and removed a lot of the junk and clutter. But when I hear things like "Completely destroyed the in-game universe" I get a little curious.

Yes I did use the search bar and didn't find anything. Also can we try to keep the conversation here about Dragon Age? I get that everyone's pissed at ME right now but that's not the point of this thread.

This is why Dragon Age 2 sucks.

Bioware is staffed with god-awful storytellers. Excellent writers, possibly the best in all gaming, but terrible storytellers.

Allow me to elaborate.
What's the story of their best game?
You and your sidekicks have to stop some ancient evil unstoppable force from destroying the world/universe.

It's simple. There's no prior motivation any of the characters need to want to save the world/universe. This offers them free reign to let you define the personality of your character, it leaves them ample room to write a broad veriety of interesting support characters with out having to contrive some reason for them to stick around. And most importantly the 3 act structure writes it's self. Introduce the conflict, prepare for the conflict, final conflict. It's simple.

What's the story for Dragon Age 2?
Flee the war, buy a house, deal with some scary foreigners, deal with some political BS. Much more complicated story line.

Now here's the problem with that: there's a far narrower scope of personalities and motivations for you to choose from in order for your characters participation in these events doesn't seem out of place. Also the with such specific hot buttons your team is going to fall on one side of the issue or the other, so there's a fair chance half your team will end up hating you by the end of the journey and then... Why are they still with you?

Why didn't Fenris hit the bricks the second you started siding with the mages?
Why did Goofy Hawke give a fuck about who ran Karkwal?
Why did Verric hang around if Hawke was a humorless prick the whole time?

If the whole world had been in immediate peril all those questions would have an answer.

So it's Bioware's attempt to write a personal story as apposed to a broad scope general story. It demonstrates just how bad they are at telling stories. (They're great at writing dialog though)

 

[Vrach]

all the zones were constantly reused and there wasn't much of an overall story

They say a good question contains half the answer. I say a bad question contains the whole answer.

As for the gameplay, it wasn't improved. Yes, Origins was shit for Warriors and Rogues (although played right, they were just fine, it's just that they required quite a bit of skill, especially early on - I personally didn't have it), but if you played Awakening, it was pretty much sorted there. All DA2 did was streamline it into oblivion, personally, I failed to see anything positive about it, while it removed a lot of the awesomeness of combat.

But yeah, it's mostly about the stuff you said, areas are reused as hell and the overall story is just fucking awful. I remember a comment from Musco (TOROcast podcast) who pretty much hit the nail on the head by saying "I kinda like the game, but I'm 17 hours into it and I still have no fucking idea what's going on". And that's not said in a good way of "ooh, it's mysterious and shit", it's a "what the fuck is this game supposed to be about?". It's just bad delivery.