WiiU Specs unveiled: PC gaming officially cheaper than console gaming.

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CrystalShadow

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DazZ. said:
ToastiestZombie said:
The kinect works really well with PCs, but there hasn't been any emulated Kinect games since its launch.
Who would want them? Also we've established there isn't 360 emulation so I don't see why porting a peripheral over would make that any different.
so if you think it'll take 3 years or even 5 years for stable Wii U emulation you're being silly.
I haven't specified a timeframe, certainly not with with numbers.
The Wii U uses its own special type of wireless connection to transmit the image from the console to the gamepad, trying to recreate that on a PC will take ages.
[br]Well "they've" got bits of it working already, I'm sure it won't be long before the rest of it does as well (notice how I didn't say a year, so saying I'm silly for thinking it'll be below a certain year is pointless).
Even when they get it to work it doesn't mean Wii U emulation,
Why is this being noted? Of course getting a peripheral working doesn't mean you can emulate completely different hardware...
Emulation is not a trivial matter.

Here's a basic experiment which you can try if you have nothing better to do.

Get an SNES. Then get a top-spec PC from about the year 2000.

The PC, on paper has a 10 year technological lead on the SNES, AND it would not be unreasonable to claim it has about 1000 times the power.

Now run an emulator on that PC, and see how well it runs compared to the real thing.

emulation as a rule is SLOW. very slow.

So slow in fact that you can count on needing a minimum of about 100x the raw power of the system you're emulating unless you get incredibly lucky with the hardware you're emulating being similar to what you're running it on.

(Which on paper at least means the easiest thing to emulate on a PC would be an original Xbox.)
 

The White Hunter

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Oh hey Jeffers, should remember to ctrl+f your username on these threads and if it finds anything not bother posting because you always ninja me but with much more detail.

Don't forget though that the basic wii u is around $200 with the gamepad, the gamepad being maybe $110, i don't know the exchange but Nintendo quoted me £93 for a repair out of warranty when I enquired out of curiosity.
 

The White Hunter

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
SkarKrow said:
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Oh hey Jeffers, should remember to ctrl+f your username on these threads and if it finds anything not bother posting because you always ninja me but with much more detail.
Wherever you see a Nintendo topic, I'll be there.



Don't forget though that the basic wii u is around $200 with the gamepad, the gamepad being maybe $110, i don't know the exchange but Nintendo quoted me £93 for a repair out of warranty when I enquired out of curiosity.
Amazon's got the Wii U Basic for £229. At a guess I'd say that means Nintendo are selling it at around £180-200 to retailers, in which case they're almost certainly making a loss on hardware. Iwata admitted a couple of months ago that they're selling at a loss this time round, and the tech and price they're selling it at would suggest as much.
I'll make sure to sign a calvin and hobbes silhouette into the sky when I need you in future. (I tried to find an image of this unsuccessfully).

Maybe they are selling it at a loss, I couldn't tell you to be honest but it's plausible and I have absolutely no reason to doubt Iwata, from what he's done the past few years he seems a very genuine man who cares about his company and it's fans.

I did get mine last week and I'm impressed with it, it feels natural to use, the gamepad is incredicomfy, the pro controller is brilliant, the thing runs cold and really quiet, looks nice too, games are good and Mario looks brilliant in HD. The Miiverse is also lovely with it's moderation to filter out the trolls and drawings of cocks. Can't wait to get a few more games but thus is the bane of the early-adopter, until then I'll obsessively hunt down star coins!
 

The White Hunter

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Bhaalspawn said:
So the future of gaming is about doing more with less power?

Nintendo's going green :D
Taste that 33W power draw, taste it and savour it. Runs quiet and fairly cool too.

And when you turn it off at the wal the standby light stays on for like an hour ._____. it runs on willpower rather than electricity.
 

The Diabolical Biz

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Another day, another j-e-f-f-e-r-s /thread.

Whatever I had to say on the matter was effectively neutered by this:

j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Oh for God sake...

Look, the Eurogamer article is complete hokum. The Digital Foundry article from which it's taken is hokum.

The photos and analysis of the GPU were done by forum goers at NeoGAF. Eurogamer/DF are just picking and reporting stuff second hand. There's a whole Neogaf thread up and running on the topic. I've been following the thread, and actually posted a thread leading directly to it. And there are quite a few users who are pretty annoyed at how DF/Eurogamer have completely misrepresented the facts thus far:

a) The Wii U GPU is not directly comparable to any off-the-shelf GPU available on the market. DF base their article on the assumption that it is based off R700 architecture. Before these photos, people were assuming that the GPU would at the least have core architecture that makes it comparable to other GPUs, such as the R700. We now know that's not the case at all. This GPU is an almost entirely custom job done by Nintendo and AMD. There's not a lot of off-the-shelf stuff there at all. Everything in the GPU has been tinkered with or redesigned somehow.

b) While direct comparisons are impossible, people are suggesting that a base comparison could be made to a Radeon 4600/4800 series. However, that's only half the picture. The chip has been so heavily modified that many of the people actually analysing the specs believe it may be functionally closer to a 5550 or even a 6760 in terms of output. Again, because the thing is so damn unconventional, no-one really knows. Therefore assumptions cannot be made.

c) There is still a whole load of stuff on the GPU die that hasn't been accounted for yet, which DF/Eurogamer completely ignore. Taken from the updated OP:

Digital Foundry claims that the GPU has a 320:16:8 core config. Even including the ROPs, ARM, DSP, Video codec and command processor this only accounts for 18 out of the 40 logical blocks on there, leaving the majority of the GPU logic unexplained.
DF are trying to offer analysis on the Wii U GPU while knowing less than half of what the logical blocks do. It doesn't matter what sort of tech you're reporting on, that's just bad journalism. If you're trying to make pronouncements on how capable a piece of tech is, make sure you fucking well know what all its parts do. Currently, there are still large parts of the board which are a total bloody mystery.

d) The Wii U currently draws less than half the power of the 360 and the PS3. Around 33W to their figure of 70W+. However the GPU is working, it's doing so with half the leccy of the HD twins. This is where things get really confusing. We know the Wii U is capable of visuals the other two are not, as seen with Trine 2: Directors Cut and Frozenbyte's comments, but it is managing to output those visuals on half the power draw of either the PS3 or 360. The GPU itself is apparently drawing somewhere around 15W of power, possibly more if the other components have lower than standard electricity consumption.

e) Rather than sticking the old Wii GPU on the side of the motherboard to add backwards compatibility, Nintendo seem to have directly integrated the GPU workings of the Wii into the Wii U GPU itself. Essentially, the Wii U GPU has assimilated the Wii GPU into its own workings. What this means is anyone's guess, but many think this means that the BC components can actually be used to improve performance for Wii U games.

f) There's a shitload of eDRAM nestled on the board, which people are still trying out to work out the configuration and fucntion of. Last I checked, the consensus was that the die had eDRAM in a configuration of 32mb/4mb/1mb. Quite if this is the case and how it all works in practise, no-one is yet certain.

The GPU has currently got the actual tech analysts at Neogaf bamboozled, perplexed and confuzzled. The only people complaining on the thread that the system is horribly underpowered are those who haven't done any actual analysis. All the tech analysts seem to be agreeing that this is one slick piece of custom kit. It may not have the raw power of whatever high-end GPUs are currently in Nextbox and PS4, but this thing has been tailored, customised and optimised beyond what you'd expect from a console GPU. This isn't an off-the-shelf card, and you can't compare it as such. While there are a lot of individual components and parts which may be similar to other cards, the whole damn thing is so unconventional in the way it's put together, you can't just assume it's got the same performance as Radeon Model Such-and-such.

The actual thread can be found here, for anyone who's interested. They're still updating it as we speak. Don't give the Eurogamer article the time of day. They trolled you. They took a bunch of info out of context, and presented it counter to what the actual people doing the analysis were saying.

Here's a quite from Jim Morrison, one of the guys at Chipworks who actually did the hi-res photos of the GPU.

Jim Morrison said:
Been reading some of the comments on your thread and have a few of my own to use as you wish.

1. This GPU is custom.
2. If it was based on ATI/AMD or a Radeon-like design, the chip would carry die marks to reflect that. Everybody has to recognize the licensing. It has none. Only Renesas name which is a former unit of NEC.
3. This chip is fabricated in a 40 nm advanced CMOS process at TSMC and is not low tech
4. For reference sake, the Apple A6 is fabricated in a 32 nm CMOS process and is also designed from scratch. It?s manufacturing costs, in volumes of 100k or more, about $26 - $30 a pop. Over 16 months degrade to about $15 each
a. Wii U only represents like 30M units per annum vs iPhone which is more like 100M units per annum. Put things in perspective.
5. This Wii U GPU costs more than that by about $20-$40 bucks each making it a very expensive piece of kit. Combine that with the IBM CPU and the Flash chip all on the same package and this whole thing is closer to $100 a piece when you add it all up
6. The Wii U main processor package is a very impressive piece of hardware when its said and done.

Trust me on this. It may not have water cooling and heat sinks the size of a brownie, but its one slick piece of silicon. eDRAM is not cheap to make. That is why not everybody does it. Cause its so dam expensive
I don't think enough people read this before they continued arguing. Anyway, keep fighting the good fight.
 

The White Hunter

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
SkarKrow said:
I'll make sure to sign a calvin and hobbes silhouette into the sky when I need you in future. (I tried to find an image of this unsuccessfully).

Maybe they are selling it at a loss, I couldn't tell you to be honest but it's plausible and I have absolutely no reason to doubt Iwata, from what he's done the past few years he seems a very genuine man who cares about his company and it's fans.
Iwata is a fucking legend, and probably one of the single most underrated people in the gaming industry. I have no doubt that he not only genuinely cares for Nintendo and its fans, but for gaming. Reason being, before he became CEO, he spent nearly two decades developing games.

That's something neither Sony or Microsoft have. They're both run by money men, guys who studied business degreesm and ultimately only care about the bottom line. Iwata is one of the only corporate gaming CEO's I can think of (apart from Gabe) who's got any experience in the field of business he deals in. Not only that, but all accounts, he's a damn legend at what he did. He was the main programmer for Earthbound, and apparently the scripting code he wrote from scratch for the game is just insane. There's a claim that you could build an entire SNES emulator, just from the code he wrote for Earthbound. He not only worked on Pokemon Gold and Silver, but was single-handedly responsible for compressing the cartridge data to the point that Game Freak were able to fit a whole second continent into the game. According to TV Tropes, he also ported the battle code of Pokemon Stadium to the N64 inside of a week, despite not having access to any development documents. And apparently, he still occasionally chips in to help with the latest Kirby games when he has the spare time.

There simply isn't another game CEO out there (aside from Gabe) who's still as intimately involved with game development as Iwata. The fact that he has his own series of Iwata Asks videos, where he talks to developers about their new games, new gameplay mechanics, and general gaming goodness... can you imagine Bobby Kotick doing that? Or Steve Bulmer, or John Rititititicello? Fuck no. They're all business graduates, who just view games as another avenue to make money. None of them would know the first thing about scripting languages, or code, or game mechanics.

...sorry, somewhat tangential there. I'm something of an Iwata fan.

I did get mine last week and I'm impressed with it, it feels natural to use, the gamepad is incredicomfy, the pro controller is brilliant, the thing runs cold and really quiet, looks nice too, games are good and Mario looks brilliant in HD. The Miiverse is also lovely with it's moderation to filter out the trolls and drawings of cocks. Can't wait to get a few more games but thus is the bane of the early-adopter, until then I'll obsessively hunt down star coins!
I'm hopefully getting a tax rebate soon, so if I don't have the money before, that's how I plan to get mine. With somewhat brilliant timing, Rayman Legends and MH3:Ultimate should be out at the same time. Sounds pretty sweet to me, as I've been wanting to try out Monster Hunter for ages.
Man I didn't know all of that stuff about Iwata (only some of it), dude is fucking even more legendary now. I have nothing but respect for a lot of people at Nintendo, b ecause a lot of people there care about the most important part of games: FUN.

Oh and anyone who worked on Pokemon Gold & Silver makes my list of favourite people ever. I played the hell out of those as a kid and I love them. Still a big pokemon player to this day.

Miyamoto is underated of late, I've seen people calling him an irrelevant relic, the same people who will to this day clame the **** who made quake has any importance to modern gaming besides trolling forums with stupid claims. Miyamoto is easily one of the most creative and innovative souls in the industry and he lives for games. He's a man who will delay a game without hesitation by several months, with his apologies, because he wants to release a masterpiece as opposed to a classic.

AH I expect to get a nice rebate come April myself. I splurged my bonus and redundancy on mine! XD I recommend Mario Bros U if you like 2D platforming, it's great fun, fairly challening and looks fucking gorgeous. Can play it in the bathroom too.

Rayman Legends demo was great fun, pre-ordered it, and I'm intrigued by Monster Hunter 2 Ultimate, I fancy picking it up I was put off greatly by the Wii version because Friend Codes D=<.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
SkarKrow said:
Bhaalspawn said:
So the future of gaming is about doing more with less power?

Nintendo's going green :D
Taste that 33W power draw, taste it and savour it. Runs quiet and fairly cool too.

And when you turn it off at the wal the standby light stays on for like an hour ._____. it runs on willpower rather than electricity.
No matter what you think of the Wii U's raw power, the fact that it only has a 33W power drain is an engineering miracle in itself.
It's really impressive that it draws so little.

Oh and, postscript, new 3D mario title for E3 I'm betting, can't wait, Galaxy and Galaxy 2 easily justified the Wii's existence to me those were just exquisite games.
 

elvor0

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Andrewtheeviscerator said:
Can the PC play Super mario, smash bros, Zombie U, Monster Hunter, Rayman Legends, Pikmin, or Legend of Zelda; no? Then I'll stick with the Wii U thank you very much.
*cough* yeah give google a go some time. It could and it will.
 

Neonsilver

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ToastiestZombie said:
Stavros Dimou said:
Explain me how an IBM POWER6 processor with 3 cores running at 1.6Ghz (WiiU) is more powerful than an IBM POWER 6 processor with 3 cores at 3.2Ghz (xbox360) ?


Oh and no,you dont have to add the costs of the monitor in the computer's price. That's like getting a new TV every time you get a new console,and from what I know more than 90% of the people doesn't.
Alright, so the CPU may be less powerful (but we still don't know because console CPUs aren't as simple as computer CPU's), but it's been confirmed that the GPU is more powerful and you can see this in the Wii U's version of Trine 2, a GPU heavy game. It runs at a standard much, much closer to the PC than the 360's version which looks crap compared to the PC version. It's also been confirmed to have much more RAM than the 360, the 360 has 512mb of shared RAM and the WII has 2gb of RAM (1gb for the games, 1 for the OS), and it's been confirmed to have Nintendo's equivalent of Blu Ray discs compared to the Xbox still uses their equivalent of DVDS (The reason LA Noire came on 3 discs on the 360, compared to 1 on the PS3).

Oh, and are you taking every single thing you need to build a PC into consideration? Here's what you need to build a PC:
.CPU
.GPU
.Motherboard
.Case
.Hardrive
.OS
.Thermal glue
.Fans
.Network card
.It's recommended you get a Disc-Drive
.Keyboard
.Mouse

I can confirm that you can't get a PC of equal or better power for $350.

You're also implying that everyone owns a decent, 1080p monitor. Unless you want to use your PC on your TV you'll have to buy a monitor. Most people buying a desktop PC for the first time don't own a monitor, yet pretty much everyone owns a TV. It's sensible to take that into consideration.
You don't need extra fans (CPU fan excluded but you can get CPU packaged with a fan at the same price as without). You don't need a network card, almost every mainboard has one onboard. A disc drive is recommended, ok that depends what else you have available. The only reason you really need a disc drive is to install the OS, but the installation can be easily done with a usb stick (I recently got a new PC and it doesn't have a disc drive). Almost everything else could be done by downloading the software from the internet.
While you need a keyboard and mouse, I think you shouldn't count it to the actual PC, because you don't have to get new ones for each new PC. If I divide the price for my mouse and keyboard between each computer I used them, the price would be about 15? (3 PC's).
 

GrimHeaper

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
The Diabolical Biz said:
Another day, another j-e-f-f-e-r-s /thread.

Whatever I had to say on the matter was effectively neutered by this:



I don't think enough people read this before they continued arguing. Anyway, keep fighting the good fight.


I really would encourage people to check out the Neogaf thread. I'm not a tech-head by any means, but even I find it interesting (and quite entertaining) seeing very clever people get thrown through the loop by what Nintendo's come up with. It's like a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Currently, the tech-heads have agreed that Nintendo put all the eDRAM memory in the GPU for some specific reason. The thing is, no-one can figure out what.

Nothing quite as entertaining as seeing eggheads get totally stumped.
Well it's dynamic and it enhances performance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDRAM
At least that's what wiki says.
Dynamic memory is pretty good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Random_Access_Memory
I'd say it's because it's small and has a great deal of power and flexibility.
We won't know what they will use it for until they use it though, the potential is rather high.
SkarKrow said:
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
SkarKrow said:
Bhaalspawn said:
So the future of gaming is about doing more with less power?

Nintendo's going green :D
Taste that 33W power draw, taste it and savour it. Runs quiet and fairly cool too.

And when you turn it off at the wal the standby light stays on for like an hour ._____. it runs on willpower rather than electricity.
No matter what you think of the Wii U's raw power, the fact that it only has a 33W power drain is an engineering miracle in itself.
It's really impressive that it draws so little.

Oh and, postscript, new 3D mario title for E3 I'm betting, can't wait, Galaxy and Galaxy 2 easily justified the Wii's existence to me those were just exquisite games.
Less power usage means more efficiency means more power potential on overclocking meaning more power.
At least that is how I think it goes.
I could be way off here.
Assassin Xaero said:
I'd like to see a gaming computer for less than $300.
You just have to youtube it.
Though a 400-500$ PC is much better.
 

The White Hunter

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GrimHeaper said:
Less power usage means more efficiency means more power potential on overclocking meaning more power.
At least that is how I think it goes.
I could be way off here.
Umm...

Not quite, for one I'm hardly gonna overclock my Wii U's cpu. It just means it uses a shitload less power, which makes it cheaper to run first and foremost.

Though if we're on about PC's if it's drawing less power to do the same job as something that draws more... hmm here:

Exhibit A draws 100W, gives performance of 80.

Exhibit B draws 50W, gives performance of 80.

All other things equal, B is more efficient, it gives the same performance for less power usage.

Potentially that can have implications overclocking and overvolting and give you more room to play with I suppose, but overclocking is more a case of hardware manufacturers building in buffers for safety reasons, usually very large ones that can be abused. Though overclocking will increase power use.

At any rate iirc both the PS3 and 360 draw about 70W on average and can vary significantly between different games and idling on the OS. The Wii U seems to just draw around 30W for pretty much any game and idling and doesn't hvary much.

It'll be interesting to see whether that means anything beyond it just being really bloody efficient.