Women in Frontline Combat?

[DefunctTheory]

actually we do, many women are over in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting with men

Not in combat arms, not in combat MOSs, and not, by any measure, in a planned fashion.

Like I've stated before. There is a vast difference between support personal getting into fire fights, and combat teams.

 

[Kortney]

snip

Forgive for not replying to the first part of your post. It's just you haven't said anything other than "atmosphere" and ...."just because!".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/womens-brains-uareu-different-from-mens-ndash-and-heres-scientific-proof-870849.html and http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2910040/scientific_differences_between_male.html?cat=5

"Men and women show differences in behaviour because their brains are physically distinct organs, new research suggests... these differences were often explained by the action of adult sex hormones, or by social pressures that encouraged males and females to behave in a certain way. Increasingly, however, these assumptions are being challenged"

So that "common belief" seems to be, well, incorrect.

I'm well aware there a differences between the two brains. I am talking more about fundamentals. The difference is really, really small.

Also, there are differences in brains between one guy to another. It means nothing. If someone wants to be a soldier, passes all the tests, performs fine under pressure and does their job - what does it matter? Should we start scanning men's brains to see if they have a big enough Dorsal Premammillary Nucleus to act as a soldier? Or should we just acknowledge the fact that his performance record is just as good as everyone else's?

---

But really (and this is my main point), I have reality on my side. Hundreds and hundreds of women from all over the world have been involved in direct combat over the last few years and there has been no incident that confirms anything you are saying.

If women shouldn't be in direct combat - how come they have functioned so well in it so far? How come there hasn't been a report of a female fucking up because of her female brain?

Hmm interesting.

To be frank, this is one of those discussions where if you had a point - we would have seen it by now and you would be able to cite recent, real life examples where a female hasn't performed in combat. Good luck finding that example - because everything I've read and heard from both official sources and anecdotal evidence from my brothers says they are just as good a soldier as they are and they do their jobs just as professionally.

 

[Aur0ra145]

No. In my experiences women do not preform as well as men on a physical scale (in most cases.) Therefore, allowing women to serve in ground combat units would only have a negative effect on the effectiveness of a given unit.

With that being said. If a women could meet EVERY SINGLE REQUIREMENT a male must perform to be deemed ready for combat, then fine, let them serve. This is not on the current APFT standards, there wouldn't be a bracket for women. Do the exact same as men in every respect. That means everything, shitting in holes, humping a pack, standing watch, knocking out bunkers, Security, all of it. Oh, do I even need to mention the psychological effect it will have on the women? Not about combat, but from their peers in the unit. Let's be completely honest, a chick in a combat unit will have to deal with a LOT of shit from other soldiers for merely being there.

 

[Kortney]

snip

Christ you're thick. Like, I thought this discussion was going pretty well, but honestly, if you just want to pretend I'm saying things, or that I need to have some proof that woman can't serve, an argument entirely unrelated, or something, then fuck, there's no point saying anything further.

I mean shit, you're asking for proof to do with arguments I'm not making. I'd have to say you're just making shit up and replying to that by this point.

And I also like the way you think there's something more fundamental to a human than the brain. That was pretty funny.

Everything you've said is totally unrelated

Your claim: Women shouldn't serve in the military.

You've not given me one reason as to why other than because you think so.

You've not listed one example where a woman has failed to perform under combat (there aren't any that I have seen).

Everything points to the fact that women perform just fine under combat.

What's wrong with me bringing these points up? Because you can't answer them?

If your claim had any weight then there would be lots of real life evidence to support it. Women have been involved in combat quite heavily, especially in the last few years, and yet there aren't any reports of a woman not functioning well under combat. This is a very valid criticism of your mentality - because reality contradicts what you are saying.

And yes, minute differences in the human brain shouldn't and don't dictate your job profession. Males have different brains to other males. It is entirely possible for a male to be born with a differently wired brain to another male and it happens every day. That isn't a problem for them.

Also, lay off the ad hominem .

 

[LewsTherin]

If they want to be in the army, let them. If there's a draft, I expect them to be bleeding in the trenches beside me as well.

 

[DefunctTheory]

---

But really (and this is my main point), I have reality on my side. Hundreds and hundreds of women from all over the world have been involved in direct combat over the last few years and there has been no incident that confirms anything you are saying.

If women shouldn't be in direct combat - how come they have functioned so well in it so far? How come there hasn't been a report of a female fucking up because of her female brain?

Jessica Lynch.

Just playing devil's advocate. You said there was none, but there's one.

 

[Zenode]

Women have a more difficult time keeping their physical fitness compared to men, sure they may pass the original tests but whats to say that they wont decrease in fitness level. I said they in MOST cases they arent as physically adept not strong, what i mean is that they are unable to stay as fit for the same amount of time as males, leading to them having to do more training to keep that fitness up.

Males and Female are INTELLECTUAL equals, Not PHYSICAL equals, otherwise evolution would have just made us all hermaphrodites and called it a day.

 

[Cazza]

my major concern is the words capture & rape spring to mind. Other then that I believe women can pass the same standards as men do.

 

[Kortney]

Because they're meaningless.

Well I apologise. You said:

but disagree overall and say that they shouldn't.

So you can see how I thought that. English is my third language so I struggle seeing the difference between shouldn't and couldn't and context is hard for me. I clearly don't possess amazing literacy. My bad.

Besides, I misinterpreted you, so what? I don't really see why you had to act like a three year old and insult my intelligence. A simple explanation without curse words and insults would have been nice. But I'm sure you have never misinterpreted anyone and I apologise for being such an idiot. Because I totally am. You know me well enough to judge that.

I'm sorry I misinterpreted you.

I am talking about the group. About the unit. About a group of men who think and act like men. You bring a woman in, and the ENTIRE DYNAMIC is fucked. Either she will suffer, parts of the group will suffer, or the group as a whole will suffer. The way the Australian military operates, and especially at the front line, is through masculinity..

It's all opinion. Leave it there.

From every soldier I know and talk to they tell me their dynamic is run on professionalism, a hard work ethic, following orders and training/preparation. Maybe soldiers in Australia are different and their masculinity and their large testicles is what gets them out of hot water.

snip

I don't know much about Jessica Lynch, but from what I heard she was knocked out, had her weapon jam and was taken prisoner - then later rescued by special forces. Doesn't sound like she could have done much - but like I said I don't know the story.

But it does highlight another point I needed to make: letting females serve alongside males in direct combat would prevent this because it would ensure female soldiers have had the same amount of training as male soldiers. I'm fairly certain that today, as it stands, US male soldiers are trained and trialled harder than females. This is wrong.

 

[Hader]

Your claim: Women shouldn't serve in the military.

You've not given me one reason as to why other than because you think so.

You've not listen one example where a woman has failed to perform under combat (there aren't any that I have seen).

Everything points to the fact that women perform just fine under combat.

What's wrong with me bringing these points up? Because you can't answer them?

Because they're meaningless. You should run for Australian Prime Minister, you seem fit for it. I've never said they can't perform. I've never once said they couldn't. Yet you keep asking me to tell you why they can't, and it's doing my head in. Christ, I told you at the start I agreed with everything you said.

I am talking about the group. About the unit. About a group of men who think and act like men. You bring a woman in, and the ENTIRE DYNAMIC is fucked. Either she will suffer, parts of the group will suffer, or the group as a whole will suffer. The way the Australian military operates, and especially at the front line, is through masculinity. For the love of God, please tell me you at least understand what I'm saying and will stop asking me useless questions.

ALSO WAIT. You got my claim wrong as well. I'm talking about the front line, not the whole thing.

You assume that the dynamics of an all male squad would be fucked. Can you even show this claim to be true, and consistent?

 

[DefunctTheory]

snip

I don't know much about Jessica Lynch, but from what I heard she was knocked out, had her weapon jam and was taken prisoner - then later rescued by special forces. Doesn't sound like she could have done much - but like I said I don't know the story.

Jessica Lynch had her weapon jam. Instead of clearing the weapon (Which takes all of 5 seconds), she threw down her fire arm and gave up. This was early on in the engagement, when most of her convo was still alive.

To make matters worse, she has, on an occasion or two, said she see's nothing wrong with her actions. She apparently see's no problem with letting her fellow soldier's die fighting while she cowered in the sand.

Oh, which brings up a second female: the driver that took a wrong turn and screwed the convo over was a women. Fun fun.

Like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, even though I do find this women to be a sorry, sorry excuse for a veteran.

But it does highlight another point I needed to make: letting females serve alongside males in direct combat would prevent this because it would ensure female soldiers have had the same amount of training as male soldiers. I'm fairly certain that today, as it stands, US male soldiers are trained and trialled harder than females. This is wrong.

Actually, female soldier receive the same exact training most support male soldiers get (With the exception of those who are lucky enough to go to Benning, the last basic Training site to refuse to fuck around).

I went to Benning, so there were no females, but if my friends can be believed, 75% of the female soldiers in Basic spent more time fucking then training. Probably an exaggeration. More like 40% is my guess.

Which brings up another point: If you can't even make it through a 2 month training course without boning around with COMPLETE strangers (This is both males and females), how can you make it a YEAR in a combat tour?

 

[TheEldestScroll]

i've always been one to believe that women and men have different but equal parts in life. men fight and defend their family and home, and women provide food and care for the family so they don't die, and bear the children in their bodies for 9 months. if anything a women's job is harder, and i don't see why a strong honest woman would want to fight in war.

imo women that fight are selfish. they fight to prove the women can do things they weren't meant to do (as if that doesn't make enough sense) all while leaving their legacy behind to fend for themselves.

think about it. if women fought, where would our civilization be today? its only in this cushy time period where we have the luxury of ignorance that women have started to want to fight. see a pattern?

its like the feminists want a woman's job to be harder than it already is. and i'm sure its hard. hell, i wouldn't want a woman's job. so maybe that makes me soft.

or is that it? maybe women are just so sick of their grueling motherly duties that their relief is to go to war and die. sheesh, that must really say something of the admirableness of some of the strongest women in history. like Abigail Adams.

 

[thePyro_13]

Their's no good reason for them to not be on the front line. I can confidently say that my psyche will freak out after seeing someone get shot/die regardless of if they are male or female.

They physical difference between males and females isn't really that big of a difference, especially when talking about people who actually train.

I always though they were lucky for not being allowed to be on the front. I know I wouldn't want to go anywhere near the front line. But I'm typically non-violent and squeamish.

 

[Kortney]

snip

I don't know much about Jessica Lynch, but from what I heard she was knocked out, had her weapon jam and was taken prisoner - then later rescued by special forces. Doesn't sound like she could have done much - but like I said I don't know the story.

Jessica Lynch had her weapon jam. Instead of clearing the weapon (Which takes all of 5 seconds), she threw down her fire arm and gave up. This was early on in the engagement, when most of her convo was still alive.

To make matters worse, she has, on an occasion or two, said she see's nothing wrong with her actions. She apparently see's no problem with letting her fellow soldier's die fighting while she cowered in the sand.

Oh, which brings up a second female: the driver that took a wrong turn and screwed the convo over was a women. Fun fun.

Like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, even though I do find this women to be a sorry, sorry excuse for a veteran.

Yeah well then she sounds like a bit of a coward - but my point stands. Part of the reason she wasn't trained as well is because woman aren't seen to be equal. If they raised the standards I'm sure she wouldn't have ended up there like that.

The driver taking a wrong turn has very little to do with her being a female. I'm sure plenty of drivers of convoys have taken wrong turns in Iraq.

 

[Hader]

snip

I don't know much about Jessica Lynch, but from what I heard she was knocked out, had her weapon jam and was taken prisoner - then later rescued by special forces. Doesn't sound like she could have done much - but like I said I don't know the story.

Jessica Lynch had her weapon jam. Instead of clearing the weapon (Which takes all of 5 seconds), she threw down her fire arm and gave up. This was early on in the engagement, when most of her convo was still alive.

To make matters worse, she has, on an occasion or two, said she see's nothing wrong with her actions. She apparently see's no problem with letting her fellow soldier's die fighting while she cowered in the sand.

Oh, which brings up a second female: the driver that took a wrong turn and screwed the convo over was a women. Fun fun.

Like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, even though I do find this women to be a sorry, sorry excuse for a veteran.

A few examples of the bad is hardly enough to justify the general concept at hand here. If we wanted to we could pull many more examples of men who did piss poor in combat as well. While I see what you are getting at here, bringing up few, smaller examples just doesn't affect the larger point at hand here.

 

[DefunctTheory]

snip

I don't know much about Jessica Lynch, but from what I heard she was knocked out, had her weapon jam and was taken prisoner - then later rescued by special forces. Doesn't sound like she could have done much - but like I said I don't know the story.

Jessica Lynch had her weapon jam. Instead of clearing the weapon (Which takes all of 5 seconds), she threw down her fire arm and gave up. This was early on in the engagement, when most of her convo was still alive.

To make matters worse, she has, on an occasion or two, said she see's nothing wrong with her actions. She apparently see's no problem with letting her fellow soldier's die fighting while she cowered in the sand.

Oh, which brings up a second female: the driver that took a wrong turn and screwed the convo over was a women. Fun fun.

Like I said, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, even though I do find this women to be a sorry, sorry excuse for a veteran.

A few examples of the bad is hardly enough to justify the general concept at hand here. If we wanted to we could pull many more examples of men who did piss poor in combat as well. While I see what you are getting at here, bringing up few, smaller examples just doesn't affect the larger point at hand here.

You don't know what a devil's advocate is, do you?

 

[Hader]

You don't know what a devil's advocate is, do you?

I said I know what you were saying and why, but that it does little to aide the argument anyways.

 

[Mehtevas]

Some of the best Marines I've served with were women. My RT during my last tour in Iraq was phenomenal, and just happened to have breasts. I think the lioness program is pretty cool. My units corpsman knows more about MOUT than any reservist I've met (she has over ten years of police experience, most of it in very bad parts of LA). Also a woman.