Women in games are not systematically oppressed - a vertical slice

[Ranorak]

I haven't read the whole threat, but I just like to point out that you're making a very stupid point, OP.

Just because you can name a bunch of games that you think are not sexist, doesn't mean that you can draw the conclusion:
"Women in games are not systematically oppressed"

 

[endtherapture]

Look, is there anything else to discuss? Enjoy Witcher, and enjoy your belief that it's not a sexist videogame. I'm not even going to bother with you anymore, so keep reading Playboy for the informative articles.

Wow you're really not helping out disproving the stereotype of "feminists are absolutely crazy, men hating bitches" lol. Can't make a valid counter point to my argument so you assume I'm a misogynist reading playboy. Wow.

Those are just women wearing normal clothes.

You're kinda embarrassing yourself and undermining anything you're trying to say with that line. I loved Witcher 2, and well written female characters were a part of the reason why. But it does have its 'issues', and having most of the female character flash their cleavages is one of 'em; they wrote some cracking characters, then rather undermined them with the designs (Triss is an exception being covered up). I love Saskia's character, but even her design - wearing full armour - trades off her exposed cleavage (is it a terrible, objectifying design? no, but it is symptomatic of a wearisome design pattern).

The 'sex as reward' is another no-no.

I think you're being incredibly offensive assuming that I only like these characters because they have been "sexualised". You're stereotyping men as creatures who will only respond to sex, and I'm trying to offer a deeper analysis of the characters but you're just being a block of concrete, putting your fingers in your ears and humming loudly saying "NO HE ONLY LIKES THEM COS OF BOOBS" and frankly it's a bit pathetic to make those assumptions.

Thing is, it looks like you're trying to offer a "deep analysis" whilst blankly refusing that the game has any persistent issues. It is okay to admire and enjoy a product whilst still recognising it has flaws (which is a point Sarkeesian, I believe, always tried to stress. funny how barely anyone paid attention to that bit).

With Saskia, I agree, she could use better armour, but she's a

Spoiler: Spoiler for The Witcher 2

dragon

so she's never really at threat from not wearing exposed armour, so she might as well use her body to gain characters.

I agree yeah, the women dress exposed in the style for the period of time the game is representing (cross reference with paintings etc. from medieval Europe), but the fact that a character in control of their sexuality and able to manipulate men using that is being argued as a BAD thing is equally as degrading to women, because it implies that sluts = bad and virgins = good. I've tried to argue my point with the poster above you but basically been told I only think with my cock, which is absolutely crazy.

 

[zen5887]

The whole opposition to this idea really baffles me.

It confuses and frustrates me.

Can we just take a few steps back for a second and put all the personal attacks and whatever on the ground and close our eyes and just pretend. Pretend that there definitely is is an issue with sexism in games. Pretend that all the AAA game devs and publishers and marketing managers all meetup and decide that the issue with sexism (that we are pretending definitely exists, remember?) has to be dealt with. This meeting has to figure out a way to make games not sexist anymore. After four years of research and surveys and dialogue they figure it out and after four years of long hard work games aren't sexist anymore.

What's different? How are you affected?

Do you really think that our medium is going to be broken apart so horribly if it all of a sudden stops being sexist? Do you think our medium is so fragile that any level of critical examination is going to ruin it?

Why, op, are you so against the idea that games might be sexist? Are you equally against the idea that games might be racist or homophobic? If in three months time the next focus of social analysis on games is race are we going to be seeing thread after thread after thread of "here is why I don't think games are racist"?

Why does it seem like so many people are violently against criticism of our medium when all the criticism is trying to do is make our medium better?

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I agree yeah, the women dress exposed in the style for the period of time the game is representing (cross reference with paintings etc. from medieval Europe)

Eh, that doesn't quite track for me. This isn't a historical game - it's a work utilizing certain aspects of a general period of history. There was simply no need to retain the direction they chose. Cover up a few more of the female characters, maybe do something about Saskia's decidedly impractical armour, and that'll stop it being quite so male gazey (I think Saskia's a badass, 'sexy' character - but she'd still be both those things if she did up her own armour properly... ).

The Witcher 2 is the way it is because of male fanservice, and it extends beyond the game itself - and that is, forgive the pun, quite revealing about the creators and publishers intentions; Triss in the game is well designed. But virtual Playboy 'shoots' of Triss? Fans will always create all kinds of variously sexual art, and that's fine. But presenting an otherwise superb female character as a sex object in a porn mag? That's--- iffy, to say the very least...

...but the fact that a character in control of their sexuality and able to manipulate men using that is being argued as a BAD thing is equally as degrading to women, because it implies that sluts = bad and virgins = good. I've tried to argue my point with the poster above you but basically been told I only think with my cock, which is absolutely crazy.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to specific characters.

Because I was referring to the banal 'NPC gives Geralt a fuck' just for completing some crappy sidequest. Those are not female characters behaving with sexual agency - they are just as distasteful as the original's cards; they are there to reward male, straight players with virtual sex.

That, plus many of the outfit designs, plus the Triss shoot? It really doesn't paint the game or the creators in a particularly good light. Does any of that take away from the solid gameplay? The great world art? The first-rate writing that puts most other major companies to shame? Not for me, no, but I understand why some take issue with it.

Like I said, I wouldn't call it sexist, I wouldn't call it 'not sexist'. It's a genuinely great game with some quite glaring, face-palm inducing sexism in it. None of us need to sort the world and all its created works into Sexist or Not-Sexist boxes - doing so just makes genuine discussion and debate almost impossible.