World Fantasy Awards may drop H.P. Lovecraft's likeness from award statuette due to author's racism.

[JimB]

Yes, he was a racist, like most people in his time. Does that have anything to do with the award?

Yes. The award is given because it is believed that H.P. Lovecraft is a writer to emulate. The things he has written about race are hurtful.

When has political correctness gotten to the point where we have to go this far with it? So far that even historical figures have to match our worldviews or be shunned?

One cannot shun a dead man. He is dead. We cannot exclude him from our company; death has already done that. The only thing we are doing is arguing about what kind of message it sends when a statuette of the man who wrote "On the Creation of Niggers" is given to a black author.

But to go so overboard that everyone who has ever held different beliefs is now a monster?

The only people who have said anything about him being a monster are his defenders. You are all arguing against a position no one has taken, or at least not taken in this thread.

Who here has even heard of her?

Yo.

Also, how is that not racism?

You'd have to define the word "racism" before I can argue about whether this act suits or does not suit your personal understanding of it.

 

[Quickman]

There is more to his "racism" than people are looking at here...

From Wikipedia:

"Lovecraft was frequently ill as a child. Because of his sickly condition, he barely attended school until he was eight years old, and then was withdrawn after a year. He read voraciously during this period and became especially enamored of chemistry and astronomy. He produced several hectographed publications with a limited circulation, beginning in 1899 with The Scientific Gazette. Four years later, he returned to public school at Hope High School.[5] Beginning in his early life, Lovecraft is believed to have suffered from night terrors, a rare parasomnia; he believed himself to be assaulted at night by horrific "night gaunts". Much of his later work is thought to have been directly inspired by these terrors. (Indeed, "Night Gaunts" became the subject of a poem he wrote of the same name, in which they were personified as devil-like creatures without faces.)

His grandfather's death in 1904 greatly affected Lovecraft's life. Mismanagement of his grandfather's estate left his family in a poor financial situation, and they were forced to move into much smaller accommodations at 598 (now a duplex at 598?600) Angell Street. In 1908, prior to his high school graduation, he claimed to have suffered what he later described as a "nervous breakdown", and consequently never received his high school diploma (although he maintained for most of his life that he did graduate). S. T. Joshi suggests in his biography of Lovecraft that a primary cause for this breakdown was his difficulty in higher mathematics, a subject he needed to master to become a professional astronomer."


Because of the abovementioned financial difficluties, he had to rent in the slums of Red Hook/Brooklyn. He was in a bad part of town. He has many things stolen that he NEEDED. it goes without saying that LOVECRAFT PROBABLY EXPERIENCED SOME HORRIFIC RACISM THAT ENFORCED THESE FEELINGS AND LED HIM TO THESE FEELINGS.

No. I'm not going to villify one of the most genius prodigies who obviously led an OBVIOUSLY troubled life.

Note - To whomever above me within the forums thst named this "horrific, even for his times".... you do not own nor are you the sole authority on what is and isn't. I wonder if you would feel the same way had a Native American wanted "all whites gone". A good amount of black entertainers have expressed HEAVY, horrific, negative, and downright sick attitudes towards whites.... but hey.."that's reasonable" I suppose.

 

[JimB]

Because of the above mentioned financial difficulties, he had to rent in the slums of Red Hook/Brooklyn. He was in a bad part of town. He has many things stolen that he needed. it goes without saying that Lovecraft probably experienced some horrific racism that made him feel this way.

Okay, so, where's the evidence of it? It's not in the article you quoted. Where's the proof? What did black people do to him to excuse his racism?

No. I'm not going to vilify one of the most genius prodigies who obviously led an obviously troubled life.

Alright, but I don't know who's asking you to.

To whomever above me within the forums that named this "horrific, even for his times:" you do not own nor are you the sole authority on what is and isn't.

Nor are you, so what is your point here? Are you saying that only the owner and sole authority on whatever unspecified subject you're referring to is allowed to say what is horrific racism? If so, who is this individual you describe? If there is no such individual, then aren't you effectively saying no one is allowed to have an opinion on the topic?

I wonder if you would feel the same way had a Native American wanted "all whites gone." A good amount of black entertainers have expressed heavy, horrific, negative, and downright sick attitudes towards whites, but hey, "that's reasonable" I suppose.

Please quote anyone in this thread who has said anything like that, Quickman, because I think you are tilting at windmills here.

 

[misfit119]

Because of the abovementioned financial difficluties, he had to rent in the slums of Red Hook/Brooklyn. He was in a bad part of town. He has many things stolen that he NEEDED. it goes without saying that LOVECRAFT PROBABLY EXPERIENCED SOME HORRIFIC RACISM THAT ENFORCED THESE FEELINGS AND LED HIM TO THESE FEELINGS.

I doubt he experienced horrific racism just living in Redhook or Brooklyn. Back when he lived there a lot of Brooklyn was very white, the major swap over to becoming heavily minority driven happening well after his time. He may have had run ins with Jewish people but that doesn't sound quite as loudly in his writing. On the other hand Redhook, when he lived there, wasn't just for the minorities, it was also for the poor and unemployed of all ethnicities. The problem is that when you live in a slum too many people are all to keen to prey on each other and he had all of his stuff, except his clothes, stolen from him.

Unfortunately a LOT of his stuff that was highly racist came before that. All of this stuff happened after his marriage which was in 1924 and then his wifes death which was in 1926. He wrote some vile stuff before that happened, like the On the Creation of Niggers (1912). So clearly the man had deep rooted issues.

The Cthulhu cults are often described in racial terms as "degraded" cults of non-whites and non-British whites.

Not going to debate your other points but this one bears mentioning - back when he was writing any sort of cult tended to be populated with people like this. It seemed like it was either meant to shock the reader (Not only were they evil, they were sub-human colored folks!) or to allay their concerns (No worries, they weren't civilized folks). This is ironically the only part of his picking on minorities that I actually don't really hold against him.

But honestly I do find it somewhat annoying to go back and look at a man who clearly seemed to hate just about anyone who wasn't a British born white, and even then he seemed to be leaning towards pure Nihilism towards humanity by the time he wrote his important stories. While I could understand some people finding his personal ethics distasteful, and the fact that it did at least leak into some of his works to be even more so, it doesn't change the fact that he's from a previous generation and going back to judge historical figures actually kind of sickens me. Unless the man was going around stepping on the necks of minority children, so what? He was still an important figure in the field of fantasy works and he was at least informed by the times he grew up in.

Nobody holds the horrible things Thomas Jefferson did to his slaves against him, Walt Disney is a punchline for his horrific racism instead of protesting against his company, Churchill was a bigot and Ghandi was a pervert. Keeping some perspective on the fact that many historically important figures are at least partially a product of their time makes the world make much more sense. People need to stop fretting over the bad of stuff like this or by the time we get 100 years down the line all of our old musicians, authors and artists are going to be blacklisted.

Yes. The award is given because it is believed that H.P. Lovecraft is a writer to emulate. The things he has written about race are hurtful

He is a writer to emulate. He came from some money, lost it, lost his wife and used his life experiences to write stories that we still talk about, love and fawn over today. That'd be a successful thing to do as a writer. Just don't emulate his racial attitudes.

 

[JimB]

He is a writer to emulate. He came from some money, lost it, lost his wife and used his life experiences to write stories that we still talk about, love and fawn over today.

And he wrote things like "On the Creation of Niggers." That isn't something that never entered his writing and that we have to compartmentalize to file under a different subheading; that goes right under the Author tab of his file.

 

[Andrey Sirotin]

Lovecraft was a fantastic writer. I don't think it's rational to judge people of the past by the modern standards. Their name lives on because of their work, not because of their opinions.

 

[JimB]

Lovecraft was a fantastic writer. I don't think it's rational to judge people of the past by the modern standards. Their names live on because of their work, not because of their opinions.

H.P. Lovecraft's opinions are in his work. There is not a brick wall separating them.

 

[Simonism451]

He is a writer to emulate. He came from some money, lost it, lost his wife and used his life experiences to write stories that we still talk about, love and fawn over today.

And he wrote things like "On the Creation of Niggers." That isn't something that never entered his writing and that we have to compartmentalize to file under a different subheading; that goes right under the Author tab of his file.

I think however, that if the prize bearing his likeness is given to a black person for their literary achievments, it's pretty explicit what the opinion on Lovecraft's thoughts about race is.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Eh, great creative minds from all eras have also sometimes been complete arseholes. I think in this case I'd separate the art from the artists, but if other people would rather not do so that's fine too.

 

[JimB]

I think however, that if the prize bearing his likeness is given to a black person for their literary achievements, it's pretty explicit what the opinion on Lovecraft's thoughts about race is.

That it's cool he went around writing about how black people are half animals and never mind what any actually black people think about it?

There are at least four ways to interpret that act.

 

[Simonism451]

I think however, that if the prize bearing his likeness is given to a black person for their literary achievements, it's pretty explicit what the opinion on Lovecraft's thoughts about race is.

That it's cool he went around writing about how black people are half animals and never mind what any actually black people think about it?

There are at least four ways to interpret that act.

No, that that shit is decidedly "uncool" (as you might like to put it) and obvious nonsense, as evidenced by being awarded to a person who, when following Lovecraft's shitty worldview couldn't possibly be in a situation to deserve it. Basically it is one part saying Lovecraft was a pretty great writer and another part saying also how dumb his racism was.

 

[JimB]

No, that that shit is decidedly "uncool" (as you might like to put it) and obvious nonsense, as evidenced by being awarded to a person who, when following Lovecraft's shitty worldview couldn't possibly be in a situation to deserve it.

Heh, it's a little funny that as I complain about an act having multiple, contradictory interpretations, I myself use a term that lends itself to a contradictory interpretation. In order to clarify my point, please let me expand on the thought: I meant "cool" in the sense of "not a big deal;" as in, "Hey, we know Lovecraft said, and published, and was paid a lot of money for saying some really horrible things about your race and by extension yourself, but we've decided that's not a problem for anyone because we're only talking about the non-racist stuff, so there's nothing for you to be upset about. We've decided for you what this means and how you should respond to it."

Sorry for being unclear earlier.

 

[Simonism451]

My opinion on this as a jew is: who cares? if he wrote something racist than it's his own right, when you start criticizing novels because of the author's opinions, rather than what's written, you are just as bad as people who criticize books or music because they are written by jews or blacks. This is also true with Orson Scott Card, you can judge the books by what's written in them, not what the author believed in.

As I understand it, most of Lovecraft's works are (mostly) without racism, so it's ridiculous to stain his entire career because of a poem.

Eh, first off: People are actually partially responsible for their opinions, much more than they are for their colour of skin, ethnicity or sexual orientation. So while maybe the way of seeing the relation between author and work of fiction is the same in those cases, the context for critisizing an author's work based on his disgusting opinions is completely different and much more justifiable than that of critisizing for their colour of skin. And as always, context matters.
Secondly: I can understand not wanting to support Orson Scott Card as he is actively using the money from people buying his books to fund anti-gay organizations.
Lovecraft however has been dead for over 65 years and most of his overt racism is so obscure (and not to mention outlandish from today's point of view) that people probably won't be enticed to buy into the drivel he spouts in "The Street", so I doubt there's going to be much of a negative effect to having a little figure of him given to various fantasy authors.

 

[Simonism451]

No, that that shit is decidedly "uncool" (as you might like to put it) and obvious nonsense, as evidenced by being awarded to a person who, when following Lovecraft's shitty worldview couldn't possibly be in a situation to deserve it.

Heh, it's a little funny that as I complain about an act having multiple, contradictory interpretations, I myself use a term that lends itself to a contradictory interpretation. In order to clarify my point, please let me expand on the thought: I meant "cool" in the sense of "not a big deal;" as in, "Hey, we know Lovecraft said, and published, and was paid a lot of money for saying some really horrible things about your race and by extension yourself, but we've decided that's not a problem for anyone because we're only talking about the non-racist stuff, so there's nothing for you to be upset about. We've decided for you what this means and how you should respond to it."

Sorry for being unclear earlier.

It's cute that you think that Lovecraft was paid a lot of money for anything. As far as I am aware, the most money he ever got for a story of his was 240$ for "The Dunwich Horror". Dude died from small intestinal cancer which probably wasn't helped along by his habit of spending an average of 2.10$ on food a week in the last years of his life. The poem which sparked this particular discussion was never published during Lovecraft's lifetime.

(Mostly) Aside from that, I don't think that Lovecraft's racism doesn't have to be a problem for anyone, I don't even think that it isn't a "big deal" (although you might disagree with what my notion of being a big deal is), obviously there's other subjective viewpoints out there (mostly informed by objective realities of living) I do however, as an admittedly white dude who has never ever faced discrimination, think that over 75 years after his death, Lovecraft's literary acomplishments and the way they influenced genre literature, should define how we think about him more than the undoubtedly racist and even at the time outlandish views he expressed strongly in some of his minor fiction and which debatably ran through most of his famous stories but whose negative impact on the world has been incredibly small in his time and is close to non-existant nowadays.

 

[JimB]

It's cute that you think that Lovecraft was paid a lot of money for anything.

Okay, I'm sorry to be snippy about this since you seem like a reasonable fellow who doesn't much deserve to be yelled at, but is there an actual point here, or is it just pedantry? If the former, then I would appreciate enlightenment; if the latter, then I'd appreciate a moratorium.

Aside from that, I don't think that Lovecraft's racism doesn't have to be a problem for anyone, I don't even think that it isn't a "big deal" (although you might disagree with what my notion of being a big deal is), obviously there's other subjective viewpoints out there (mostly informed by objective realities of living). I do, however, as an admittedly white dude who has never ever faced discrimination, think that over 75 years after his death, Lovecraft's literary accomplishments and the way they influenced genre literature, should define how we think about him more than the undoubtedly racist and even at the time outlandish views he expressed strongly in some of his minor fiction and which debatably ran through most of his famous stories but whose negative impact on the world has been incredibly small in his time and is close to non-existent nowadays.

See, that's pretty much what I'm talking about in my "we decided it for you" speech. No one that I am aware of is trying to dictate how fans of H.P. Lovecraft are required to define him in their heads, just saying that it's inappropriate to give out statuettes of him. So why are you trying to dictate, even in the form of gentle suggestions, how others ought to view him?

 

[Simonism451]

It's cute that you think that Lovecraft was paid a lot of money for anything.

Okay, I'm sorry to be snippy about this since you seem like a reasonable fellow who doesn't much deserve to be yelled at, but is there an actual point here, or is it just pedantry? If the former, then I would appreciate enlightenment; if the latter, then I'd appreciate a moratorium.

Aside from that, I don't think that Lovecraft's racism doesn't have to be a problem for anyone, I don't even think that it isn't a "big deal" (although you might disagree with what my notion of being a big deal is), obviously there's other subjective viewpoints out there (mostly informed by objective realities of living). I do, however, as an admittedly white dude who has never ever faced discrimination, think that over 75 years after his death, Lovecraft's literary accomplishments and the way they influenced genre literature, should define how we think about him more than the undoubtedly racist and even at the time outlandish views he expressed strongly in some of his minor fiction and which debatably ran through most of his famous stories but whose negative impact on the world has been incredibly small in his time and is close to non-existent nowadays.

See, that's pretty much what I'm talking about in my "we decided it for you" speech. No one that I am aware of is trying to dictate how fans of H.P. Lovecraft are required to define him in their heads, just saying that it's inappropriate to give out statuettes of him. So why are you trying to dictate, even in the form of gentle suggestions, how others ought to view him?

I spent most of the last two hours or so typing a very long-winded answer in which I completly missed your point and ended up scrapping it. Instead I thought all this over and found that you actually made me change my mind.