worst arguments why games aren't art.

[veloper]

That's cute, but none of the games you listed are old school.

You might have countered with the Civilization series, as the 4X genre still gets some representation, but that's pretty much it for the paced thinking man's game.

ME2 and Bioshock are shooters with RPG elements. ME is a hybrid. SH games are cheap thrill horror games. SotC and MGS are action games.

Whole genres are under-represented for the past 10 years.

I said their are more GOOD ART GAMES now a day never did I say old school games.
ME and Bioshock are amazing games with thought put into them and shouldn't be ignored if just because they aren't old school. I will just say silent hill 1-4 are not cheap horror thrill games after that they were sold to a different company which turned the rest of the franchise into cheap horror thrill games. Silent hill 1-4 are complex thought provoking games that have done better then any other game, movie or book with the horror genre apart from maybe the grudge put I can't say anything about because I barely know anything about it. If you are one of those people wanting retro games just ignore the games as art argument and play super meat boy because retro games don't have anything to do with games are art

There you have another reason why some of us aren't too keen about this whole games as art push: not our prefered type of games. Should it catch on, our genres will get buried even deeper.

rpg's aren't being pushed under their just changing because most fail at being tactical I mean ironically pokemon and rpg for kids has more tactic behind it then most rpg's I have played so rpg's are mixing with other genres were skill is already needed making (when done right) a game that needs tactics and skill which is great. Action games aren't done that much because if you release a wacky action game most people now a day will look at the packed and say it's crap unless it's part of an already existing game serious like DmC, GoW or castlevania (DS ones are great) but hey bayonetta was great. So the only reason why action games are not made now is because they don't sell so this is really more because of people buying games and nothing to do with games as an art form.

And yet the Japanse have still got the knack of making engaging tactical RPGs(or SRPGs) like FF:tactics, Jeanne d'Arc, Tactics Ogre, it's just the western studios that are dropping the ball on the RPG front. Rarely we even get to see a positive indie exception like Knights of the Chalice.

In any case, a good tactical RPG can be done and there is a sizeable market for them, but the stupid publishers would rather compete on one front, flooding the market with more shooters, where there can be only 1 winner: Activision.

 

[nuba km]

snip

this is a whole different topic which I wouldn't mind discussing over messages but has nothing to do with this topic but can we agree that video games developing into a more respectable art form isn't the cause of your more liked genres dying because those genres actually dent to hold the games as art examples.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

1)the industry makes them and people make games like this because they like them and they sell
2)the industry still cares about us it's just trying to expand it still has other nerd games
3)never heard stuff like that plus they make games that they think will sell which sort of is selfish but if it doesn't sell they don't go 'you no understand genius' they just try something different
4)ahem:
super meat boy (uper retro)
mass effect (sci-fi opra)
bioshock (steam punk adventure with two great mind fighting)
dinosaur d-day (wacky crazy idea only nerds find fun(me included))
halo (sci-fi adventure)
dragon age (medieval fantasy)
elder-scrolls (medieval fantasy)
wow those crap games they make for us nerds

Also you seem to have a very negative view of things and i find people who go into the game industry are nerds making games that they would enjoy and think others would enjoy.

I have a realistic view of the industry as some types of games and developments in game design are simply not being made by mainstream industry or by people who expound upon the merits of the soi-dissant "art game." I see no point in engaging in list warfare to prove that point, but my friend, you are firing blanks. The way that the industry cares about us is like a bar owner who waters down the beer then tells us we should enjoy it more because it's more healthy.

 

[nuba km]

I have a realistic view of the industry as some types of games and developments in game design are simply not being made by mainstream industry or by people who expound upon the merits of the soi-dissant "art game." I see no point in engaging in list warfare to prove that point, but my friend, you are firing blanks. The way that the industry cares about us is like a bar owner who waters down the beer then tells us we should enjoy it more because it's more healthy.

no it's you pointing at water an going 'were's the beer?' there still is beer it's just your ignoring it and complaining about the lack of it just because people who aren't regulars costumours or alcoholics are buying water and apple denies which end up making the bar more money so he gets more water an apple denies but you still can get your beer and your just complaining about the non-beer stuff out numbering the beer because you are grumpy and nothing will please you unless you rule the world.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

no it's you pointing at water an going 'were's the beer?' there still is beer it's just your ignoring it and complaining about the lack of it just because people who aren't regulars costumours or alcoholics are buying water and apple denies which end up making the bar more money so he gets more water an apple denies but you still can get your beer and your just complaining about the non-beer stuff out numbering the beer because you are grumpy and nothing will please you unless you rule the world.

Yes, that is typical game industry logic.

I go into a bar and ask for a beer and am poured something brown with a head on from a tap. I sip on it, find it is mostly water and complain. They then say that water is much more profitable than beer so they have to adapt to the reality of the market and what is the problem since there are other customers (12 year olds who have never before drunk beer) who are not complaining. If I don't stop complaining and buy another game industry beer then I must be suffering from some sort of mental illness.

 

[stormtrooper9091]

games are not art because they're an industry. As soon as crap stops being mass produced, things will improve

 

[nuba km]

Yes, that is typical game industry logic.

I go into a bar and ask for a beer and am poured something brown with a head on from a tap. I sip on it, find it is mostly water and complain. They then say that water is much more profitable than beer so they have to adapt to the reality of the market and what is the problem since there are other customers (12 year olds who have never before drunk beer) who are not complaining. If I don't stop complaining and buy another game industry beer then I must be suffering from some sort of mental illness.

You still can get your normal beer and by not getting the watered down beer they stop watering down the beer but they don't stop selling water and I have found that the mixing of genres is happening rather then genres being made to appeal to the casual audience but rather games are made for the casual audience to introduce the casual people to the genre and what they can to and you are mistaken the water down beer as something to make you like casual rather then what it is something to introduce the casual to beer.

 

[nuba km]

games are not art because they're an industry. As soon as crap stops being mass produced, things will improve

so tv, movies, books and painting/sculptures aren't art because those are all industries.

 

[DarthFennec]

Call of Duty is definitely not historically accurate, and therefore it is most certainly fictional. This person in your class is either a complete dumbass or a shitty troll, if you ask me.

 

[nuba km]

Call of Duty is definitely not historically accurate, and therefore it is most certainly fictional. This person in your class is either a complete dumbass or a shitty troll, if you ask me.

wow it's been long since someone actually commented on what this thread is about rather then asking why I think games should be art or them saying why they don't think it's art I hope more on topic messages are to follow. also he was being 100% serious.

 

[Talon_Skywarp]

Given the fact that art these days is glueing a dead camel to your face, I find all this hard to take seriously.

Art is dead. Didn't anyone get the memo?

 

[stormtrooper9091]

games are not art because they're an industry. As soon as crap stops being mass produced, things will improve

so tv, movies, books and painting/sculptures aren't art because those are all industries.

yes, Oscar Wilde is art, Twilight is not. Jiri Menzel is art, Avatar is not. The list goes on

 

[nuba km]

games are not art because they're an industry. As soon as crap stops being mass produced, things will improve

so tv, movies, books and painting/sculptures aren't art because those are all industries.

yes, Oscar Wilde is art, Twilight is not. Jiri Menzel is art, Avatar is not. The list goes on

but Oscar Wilde is still part of the same industry as twilight but you say because games are a industry they are not art, you are not making sense.

 

[Thaliur]

Gaming won't get any respect nomatter how we spin it and gaming doesn't need respect to prosper, only money.

I like gaming as entertainment and I would love for game studios to cater to nerds again. The opposite of pandering for the respect of the public. Less casual fratboy games and more games like JA2, MOO2, XCOM, PST, Elite.

First: I hope I didn't mess up when I shortened the quoted text...


No, to the topic.
You said that gaming doesn't need respect, and I agree with you, mostly. The main reason to get games accepted as art is freedom.

In "proper" art, pretty much anything can be depicted and the more it moves outside of social norms, the more it gets admired for daringly crossing borders and questioning morale or whatever the critic can think of at that moment (after all, art critics are the kind of people who are able to know someone personally who was just invented for a fictional biography, someone like Nat Tate).

If a game shows scenes people know from films like "Saving Private Ryan" or, in Germany, a swastika, even if the game is SUPPOSED to realistically depict the second world war, it usually gets banned or at least cut down to a "safe" version, in some cases even removing gameplay elements. I remember one game where enemies could bleed to death when wounded badly enough, and there are quite a few (like AvP) where you could remove limbs from enemies, so they couldn't attack you with them, or were bound to one place or whatever. This is not possible in Germany.
And then, there's nudity...
If an artist paints a picture of a naked woman, they get admired for the lines, the colours, the correct anatomy, and several more things.
A game where sex is hinted at? Remember Mass Effect, the hideous lesbian porn game? That's what happens.

So, if games are officially made an art form, we can get braver, more grown-up games, with (hopefully) deeper stories, even touching sensitive topics.
Oh, and museums would suddenly turn from a place to hang up dirty sheets and take money for that ( I admit there are a lot of great artists, but some of those guys just seem to empty a paint bucket on ten square metres of linen and sell it) to something far more awesome, enjoyable and probably funny.

Of course, the downside will be games becoming an attraction for people who actually believe pouring paint over a canvas is art, and apply the same principle to gaming.

 

[nuba km]

Gaming won't get any respect nomatter how we spin it and gaming doesn't need respect to prosper, only money.

I like gaming as entertainment and I would love for game studios to cater to nerds again. The opposite of pandering for the respect of the public. Less casual fratboy games and more games like JA2, MOO2, XCOM, PST, Elite.

First: I hope I didn't mess up when I shortened the quoted text...


No, to the topic.
You said that gaming doesn't need respect, and I agree with you, mostly. The main reason to get games accepted as art is freedom.

In "proper" art, pretty much anything can be depicted and the more it moves outside of social norms, the more it gets admired for daringly crossing borders and questioning morale or whatever the critic can think of at that moment (after all, art critics are the kind of people who are able to know someone personally who was just invented for a fictional biography, someone like Nat Tate).

If a game shows scenes people know from films like "Saving Private Ryan" or, in Germany, a swastika, even if the game is SUPPOSED to realistically depict the second world war, it usually gets banned or at least cut down to a "safe" version, in some cases even removing gameplay elements. I remember one game where enemies could bleed to death when wounded badly enough, and there are quite a few (like AvP) where you could remove limbs from enemies, so they couldn't attack you with them, or were bound to one place or whatever. This is not possible in Germany.
And then, there's nudity...
If an artist paints a picture of a naked woman, they get admired for the lines, the colours, the correct anatomy, and several more things.
A game where sex is hinted at? Remember Mass Effect, the hideous lesbian porn game? That's what happens.

So, if games are officially made an art form, we can get braver, more grown-up games, with (hopefully) deeper stories, even touching sensitive topics.
Oh, and museums would suddenly turn from a place to hang up dirty sheets and take money for that ( I admit there are a lot of great artists, but some of those guys just seem to empty a paint bucket on ten square metres of linen and sell it) to something far more awesome, enjoyable and probably funny.

Of course, the downside will be games becoming an attraction for people who actually believe pouring paint over a canvas is art, and apply the same principle to gaming.

you sir have made a point which I am trying to make to this guy and I hope he listens to it for it is very well worded. and yes there will be people who take the blank canvas is art that will end up making indie games and that will make me sad.

 

[BaronVonBob]

I don't think games are art. I mean, they can have art in them, the scenery could be artistic like a painting, the plot and dialogue artistic like a book, but as a whole, they're just entertainment.
I personally think it comes down to this; true art is made to express a message or emotion from the creator, whereas games, as proved by the 7 Call of Dutys, 6 Halos, and however many Mario games there are out there, exist to make money.

 

[nuba km]

sorry for double post this post wouldn't show up for 10 min

 

[nuba km]

I don't think games are art. I mean, they can have art in them, the scenery could be artistic like a painting, the plot and dialogue artistic like a book, but as a whole, they're just entertainment.
I personally think it comes down to this; true art is made to express a message or emotion from the creator, whereas games, as proved by the 7 Call of Dutys, 6 Halos, and however many Mario games there are out there, exist to make money.

by that logic movies can't be art because all those bad action movies twilight and the star wars prequels were just there to make money same with books all those celebrity biographies just to make money or so paintings for there are many which are just drawn so they can be sold for money.

 

[BaronVonBob]

by that logic movies can't be art because all those bad action movies twilight and the star wars prequels were just there to make money same with books all those celebrity biographies just to make money or so paintings for there are many which are just drawn so they can be sold for money.

Nooo, you've got the wrong end of what I said. I said true art doesn't exist to make money, of course with anything there will always be areas of it that exist purely for profit, and even true art is in some way about making money. Beethoven didn't write symphonies and keep them to himself, he was paid to perform them, but the main drive behind his best works are emotion over cash.

 

[nuba km]

by that logic movies can't be art because all those bad action movies twilight and the star wars prequels were just there to make money same with books all those celebrity biographies just to make money or so paintings for there are many which are just drawn so they can be sold for money.

Nooo, you've got the wrong end of what I said. I said true art doesn't exist to make money, of course with anything there will always be areas of it that exist purely for profit, and even true art is in some way about making money. Beethoven didn't write symphonies and keep them to himself, he was paid to perform them, but the main drive behind his best works are emotion over cash.

how to you know that and how to you know that some game developers don't pure their heart into the games they make?