Would it be a good thing to teach American children to become nice people?

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CaptJohnSheridan

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https://www.kpbs.org/news/2018/aug/09/el-cajon-principal-under-fire-alleged-muslim-bully/

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/anti-muslim-bullying-schools-increase-lawsuit-st-dominics-20180722.html

Why do people think it is a bad thing to encourage children to be nice people?
 

Hawki

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CaptJohnSheridan said:
Why do people think it is a bad thing to encourage children to be nice people?
I don't think many people actually think that. But people will be jerks regardless.

Also it's hardly an American phenomenon.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Respectful would be a realistic goal. Social evolution depends on social consciousness. A society that pretends it can ixnay that in favour of rampant self-interest is a society that stagnates in terms of basic social mobility, quality of life, and general safety.

Cops being taught to shoot people under a false perception of constant danger (whether that danger actually exists or not) hasn't done nations many favours.

Moreover it's downright counter-intuitive. I don't buy into that pseudo pop-psych garbage of MBTi etc... but I do buy into the idea of multiple intelligences. The practical basis of human engagement and collective realization of its possible works and agency is organization, analysis, theory and education/instruction. And that requires a social consensus of agency regardless. It requires many people, doing many different things, and at least the grand majority all pulling in the same direction with their efforts.

John Curtin's; "Fight, work, or perish... make a complete sacrifice for Australia or become a complete sacrifice to the enemy..." wins wars and overcomes collective obstacles. Not; "Greed is good... be a self-interested arsehole."
 

Casual Shinji

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Isn't that what's already being done? Not that I have a firm grasp on what's going on in schools today, but I would assume that 'respect others and don't be an asshole' is something most will try to teach children, or at least prevent them from not doing. Kids are simply assholes by default, since they don't know any better yet.
 

Saelune

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Yeah, but it wont happen cause we live in a world where no one will stop a bully, and when you stop them yourself, YOU get punished.
 

Trunkage

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Casual Shinji said:
Isn't that what's already being done? Not that I have a firm grasp on what's going on in schools today, but I would assume that 'respect others and don't be an asshole' is something most will try to teach children, or at least prevent them from not doing. Kids are simply assholes by default, since they don't know any better yet.
If you listen to any media broadcast, apparently bullying is still a massive problem at schools. Or workplaces named Riot.

I try to get my kids to be respectful to others. Honestly, it probably means that they will be pretty unsuccessful in life, as most people who are successful have trampled over someone to get where they are.
 

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trunkage said:
If you listen to any media broadcast, apparently bullying is still a massive problem at schools. Or workplaces named Riot.

I try to get my kids to be respectful to others. Honestly, it probably means that they will be pretty unsuccessful in life, as most people who are successful have trampled over someone to get where they are.
Depends on how you measure success. Even in the corporate or political world, where I have seen people actively sabotage the careers of others for their self-interest, the thing is that common shareholders don't want to see that sort of thing. It is in the best interests of a corporation to try to 'trim the fat' where they can.

The whole reason of Riot Games trying to clean up its image is because there's a good chance Tencent (the parent company) will like be; "So what's all this about people sending dick pics to workers when they, you know, should be working and not harassed while doing so?"

Or at least that's how I personally would be if managing an operation. Because I can't imagine much is getting done while pointing their iPhones at their crotches. I'm certain I'm either paying them too much, for too many hours, for not enough work... I'm at least damn certain the shareholders will agree with me if a publicly traded company.

Then again Tencent do just about fucking everything, the many tentacled international beast that it is ... so they might simply do nothing.

And if we're talking the type of success like them and their friends opening up a co-operative business interest and actually forming healthy social and mercantile connections with an eye to employing talent and creating a rewarding business culture... well a decent boss is automatically better than a bigoted arsehole.

Then of course you have social success. You know ... being a decent person, and making good friendships, and being seen as a proactive figure in the community? All of which I would say is 'successful' ... all of which can make one happy. Of which if you manage to pull that off, being legitimately happy, you've done just about everything you can do and about as successful as you can get.

It's just about the only thing you can't buy, and ultimately the only thing that actually matters.

I've met scientists who earn less than I did as a third year teacher. Despite having all (most of) the qualifications to do that job, and probably be less taxing on their headspace. But then again, they don't do what they do for the money. They do it because it interests them. And if your kids are ever in a position to select a job just on those grounds alone and still afford a roof over their head and electricity through their sockets .... well, ranks as 'successful' to me. About as best as you can hope for ... and honestly, being a self-interested prick often gets in the way of that.

Works in reverse, too. I knew teachers that were teachers precisely because they didn't like traditional ideas of a job in academia. They wanted to be 'where the action is'. Shaping young minds at the source.

If we ever live in a society where such things can't be considered 'successful' ... Heaven help us, because nothing else will.
 

Casual Shinji

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trunkage said:
Casual Shinji said:
Isn't that what's already being done? Not that I have a firm grasp on what's going on in schools today, but I would assume that 'respect others and don't be an asshole' is something most will try to teach children, or at least prevent them from not doing. Kids are simply assholes by default, since they don't know any better yet.
If you listen to any media broadcast, apparently bullying is still a massive problem at schools.
And I don't think that'll ever not be the case.


I might have a very cynical outlook on this, but bullying is kind of unsolveable. You put that many kids together with comparatively very little adult supervision and they're gonna turn very nasty toward any kid that's a little weird or lacking in self confidence.
 

CaitSeith

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Casual Shinji said:
trunkage said:
Casual Shinji said:
Isn't that what's already being done? Not that I have a firm grasp on what's going on in schools today, but I would assume that 'respect others and don't be an asshole' is something most will try to teach children, or at least prevent them from not doing. Kids are simply assholes by default, since they don't know any better yet.
If you listen to any media broadcast, apparently bullying is still a massive problem at schools.
And I don't think that'll ever not be the case.


I might have a very cynical outlook on this, but bullying is kind of unsolveable. You put that many kids together with comparatively very little adult supervision and they're gonna turn very nasty toward any kid that's a little weird or lacking in self confidence.
Still, if the shitty kids don't learn how to not be shitty, they'll become shitty adults. Reducing that outcome as much as possible is something still worth trying (no matter if it can't be fixed 100%).
 

immortalfrieza

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We do already do that and always have, to respect each other and adults is among the first things we teach to our children. The problem comes down to the fact that in this day and age no one is willing to impose actual consequences for bad behavior anymore. Kids have effectively nothing to fear from adults anymore, we just sit them in a corner for 5 minutes or beg them to stop or some equivalent thereof. What very little we do about it just teaches kids to be sneakier about their bad behavior, thus bullies cornering another kid when there is no adult around so they can get away scot free. Bullies are actually much better at controlling the behavior of kids than adults are, having their fun with another kid and then threatening them with violence if they do anything and following through, while verbal bullying is pretty much let off without hardly a comment at the most.
 

Kerg3927

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A dozen complaints in 13 schools over the course of a year actually seems pretty good. We're talking about kids here. Out of how many students? 100,000?

During that same time period, in those same schools, how many regular, non-Muslim related bullying incidents? Hundreds? Over a thousand?
 

Trunkage

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Marik2 said:
Just show them Mr Roger's and teach them morals.
That's very SJW of you....

You know what does surprise me. Shows like Mr Rogers and He-man which literally state the moral of the story is frowned upon nowadays
Casual Shinji said:
trunkage said:
Casual Shinji said:
Isn't that what's already being done? Not that I have a firm grasp on what's going on in schools today, but I would assume that 'respect others and don't be an asshole' is something most will try to teach children, or at least prevent them from not doing. Kids are simply assholes by default, since they don't know any better yet.
If you listen to any media broadcast, apparently bullying is still a massive problem at schools.
And I don't think that'll ever not be the case.


I might have a very cynical outlook on this, but bullying is kind of unsolveable. You put that many kids together with comparatively very little adult supervision and they're gonna turn very nasty toward any kid that's a little weird or lacking in self confidence.
Just look at any discussion about Free Speech on this site. Bullying is rampant with adults too.
 

Marik2

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trunkage said:
Marik2 said:
Just show them Mr Roger's and teach them morals.
That's very SJW of you....

You know what does surprise me. Shows like Mr Rogers and He-man which literally state the moral of the story is frowned upon nowadays
Casual Shinji said:
trunkage said:
Casual Shinji said:
Isn't that what's already being done? Not that I have a firm grasp on what's going on in schools today, but I would assume that 'respect others and don't be an asshole' is something most will try to teach children, or at least prevent them from not doing. Kids are simply assholes by default, since they don't know any better yet.
If you listen to any media broadcast, apparently bullying is still a massive problem at schools.
And I don't think that'll ever not be the case.


I might have a very cynical outlook on this, but bullying is kind of unsolveable. You put that many kids together with comparatively very little adult supervision and they're gonna turn very nasty toward any kid that's a little weird or lacking in self confidence.
Just look at any discussion about Free Speech on this site. Bullying is rampant with adults too.
How is Mr Roger's and morals supposed to be sjw?
 

Hawki

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trunkage said:
You know what does surprise me. Shows like Mr Rogers and He-man which literally state the moral of the story is frowned upon nowadays
I'd have thought that was always frowned upon. Stating the moral at the end of the story is lazy writing at best, and patronising at worst (mostly).
 

Erttheking

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Casual Shinji said:
Isn't that what's already being done? Not that I have a firm grasp on what's going on in schools today, but I would assume that 'respect others and don't be an asshole' is something most will try to teach children, or at least prevent them from not doing. Kids are simply assholes by default, since they don't know any better yet.
Depends on the school, considering there's a lot of schools with many of them fighting tooth and nail against basic respect for trans people or the like.
 

Elvis Starburst

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Saelune said:
Yeah, but it wont happen cause we live in a world where no one will stop a bully, and when you stop them yourself, YOU get punished.
Don't even get me started with that crap. The level of BS the "zero tolerance policy" schools have is borderline ludicrous. Of course it's zero tolerance, except when it's not and I have to tell the teachers 12 times someone was giving me shit all week. It's only when I get into a physical fight with the person pissing me off and I (somehow) suplex him and he nearly gets whiplash that the teachers finally start giving a shit. All because teachers have it hard enough and don't wanna make things more difficult while the school system doesn't support them properly with handling this sort of situation.

In case you can't tell my opinion on the matter, fuck school and its shitty kids that are stuffed in a place they don't wanna be in with hundreds of other kids who don't wanna be there, all with a school system that can't be arsed to bother doing anything for their students until the cops are standing there in the principal's office
 

bluegate

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Hawki said:
trunkage said:
You know what does surprise me. Shows like Mr Rogers and He-man which literally state the moral of the story is frowned upon nowadays
I'd have thought that was always frowned upon. Stating the moral at the end of the story is lazy writing at best, and patronising at worst (mostly).
Well, it's media aimed at little kids, sometimes you have to spell stuff out to them because they don't quite get the whole read between the lines bit yet.
 

The Lunatic

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Are Muslim Americans not also Americans?...

It's pointlessly tribalism to turn this into "Americans vs Muslims (Who we aren't considering Americans for some reason!?).
 

Hawki

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bluegate said:
Well, it's media aimed at little kids, sometimes you have to spell stuff out to them because they don't quite get the whole read between the lines bit yet.
It's still possible to tell a story with a primarily children's audience without moralizing.

Beauty and the Beast didn't have to monologue about how you should judge someone by their character rather than appearance. Aladdin didn't have to monologue at the end that it's best to be true to yourself rather than pretending to be someone you're not. Lion King didn't need to monologue that one can't run from responsibility. I didn't...well, you get the idea.

And yes, those are all Disney films, but I'd like to think the point stands.