Would you play an RTS on the WII U?

[Verlander]

I don't have a WiiU, but I think that the controller could add an interesting dynamic to it all, not least as a control centre - arguably, RTS' don't work on consoles because of the lack of buttons, but a customisable control interface on the touchscreen would work nicely. I'm not sure the WiiU could handle anything like Supreme Commander though

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

At this point I think the only thing that would get me to buy a Wiiooo would be if it got a really sick RTS like a Dawn of War spinoff.

I honestly don't think most RTS games made for the PC would be a good fit for the Wii U at all. Aside from the fact that the Wii U still doesn't offer nearly the level of control a keyboard and mouse does, playing an RTS on a touch screen sounds fine and dandy until you realize that your hand is always going to be blocking most of your view. That's not a good thing in this genre.

But that's the cool thing actually: you also have a TV screen which can show the actual battle. The touchscreen can be your "command table" or whatever with a minimap (more detailed than what you usually get in the corner of the screen) and the commands.

This wouldn't work with the mini map as you can't be looking down away from the screen to see the mini map. The mini map pretty much has to be in the corner of the screen.

 

[AuronFtw]

As soon as the Wii U ships with a plug-and-play mouse and keyboard, certainly RTS games are a good idea.

Until then they'd just have to be really, really slow paced or just not that hard/skill requiring. Remember Starcraft on n64? Same deal. You'd have to seriously dumb down the gameplay or just cut out a ton of elements for a full-blown PC RTS to work on a Wii U, without even touching the issue of graphics.

That said, have you played rymdkapsel? It's like baby's first starcraft, where you only focus on base management and your drones are all AI controlled once you give them a "job." You have to expand your base by adding corridors, power generators, defense bunkers, food production areas, etc and occasionally you get attacked and have to fall back into bunkers by just re-assigning your drones from "construction" job to "defense" and swapping them back out again once the threat is gone. It's a simple game, but addicting (seriously check it out, it's pretty cheap on android store).

You never have to select units, and you have a pretty generous amount of time to plot out/place your base parts. A game like that would be much more well suited for Wii U than a full on RTS port (and in this case, the Wii U could even feature more advanced graphics than the original!)

 

[Dragonbums]

As soon as the Wii U ships with a plug-and-play mouse and keyboard, certainly RTS games are a good idea.

Until then they'd just have to be really, really slow paced or just not that hard/skill requiring. Remember Starcraft on n64? Same deal. You'd have to seriously dumb down the gameplay or just cut out a ton of elements for a full-blown PC RTS to work on a Wii U, without even touching the issue of graphics.

Well for one, the Wii U has something the Nintendo 64 doesn't. Which is a touch screen.

Secondly graphics will for the most part be zero problem with the Wii U. Seriously. This isn't the Wii anymore, and I can't think of any RTS game off the top of my head that requires such a level of graphical fidelity that even a console that is more powerful then the 360 and PS4 can't handle it.

 

[Vrach]

...but consoles were unable to provide the necessary control schemes to accommodate RTS games, however with the Wii U that seems to have changed. If the Wii U's touchscreen is good enough to play something like W101 or Bayo2 then surely it would be sufficient to replace the mouse as an input device.

I don't really see how a touchscreen could benefit anything but the slowest of games. Even analog sticks are faster and unless you've got three hands, the problem is that you can't use the touchpad while retaining use of the other buttons at the same time, not to mention, a touchscreen requires you to look at it, which means diverting attention from the screen and what's happening in most cases.

This is where the keyboard rules supreme, you can hit several buttons at the same time and you've got about 20 buttons at your disposal without moving your left hand while having the right to use the mouse to look around and click (and pointing is a lot faster than aiming with analog sticks).

An RTS is a lot about speed and while I don't play them much (I never got into them), I know from my brother (as well as general knowledge), they use a ton of keybinds to get to your troops/select buildings faster.

So yeah, you COULD build an RTS on a console, but it's gonna be a lot slower without a mouse/keyboard (really don't get why console/game makers don't make them optional, but standard use) and I don't see WiiU's touchscreen being much help.

 

[Naeras]

The inherent problem of having a classic RTS on anything but PC is the lack of the control method that the genre was designed around in the first place. Trying to actually emulate mouse and keyboard controls on a console is a recipe for disaster(Starcraft 64 anyone?), and trying to simplify the controls for console use has thus far not been a successful experiment as far as I know(see Halo Wars. I haven't tried the game, but friends of mine have claimed that that game had been simplified too much). Thus we need either a new control method or some kind of console-based genre spin-off if anything even resembling a decent RTS is to show up on a console.

It could potentially work. The Wii-U does have a peripheral that could work better with the genre than the other consoles, provided the games in question were designed with the Wii-U controller in mind. And with that being said, trying to actually port any PC-RTS to the Wii-U would be a suicide mission. A new game that's specifically designed for the system would be a possibility, but I suspect it would either be a quasi-RTS or something that's been horribly dumbed down, rather than a traditional RTS.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

I don't really see how a touchscreen could benefit anything but the slowest of games. Even analog sticks are faster and unless you've got three hands, the problem is that you can't use the touchpad while retaining use of the other buttons at the same time, not to mention, a touchscreen requires you to look at it, which means diverting attention from the screen and what's happening in most cases.

This is where the keyboard rules supreme, you can hit several buttons at the same time and you've got about 20 buttons at your disposal without moving your left hand while having the right to use the mouse to look around and click (and pointing is a lot faster than aiming with analog sticks).

An RTS is a lot about speed and while I don't play them much (I never got into them), I know from my brother (as well as general knowledge), they use a ton of keybinds to get to your troops/select buildings faster.

So yeah, you COULD build an RTS on a console, but it's gonna be a lot slower without a mouse/keyboard (really don't get why console/game makers don't make them optional, but standard use) and I don't see WiiU's touchscreen being much help.

It's a DS as a console. This isn't complicated. There is nothing preventing the touchscreen from being just as fast as an analog stick or mouse. It all comes down to developer skill.

 

[GonzoGamer]

At this point I think the only thing that would get me to buy a Wiiooo would be if it got a really sick RTS like a Dawn of War spinoff.

I honestly don't think most RTS games made for the PC would be a good fit for the Wii U at all. Aside from the fact that the Wii U still doesn't offer nearly the level of control a keyboard and mouse does, playing an RTS on a touch screen sounds fine and dandy until you realize that your hand is always going to be blocking most of your view. That's not a good thing in this genre.

But that's the cool thing actually: you also have a TV screen which can show the actual battle. The touchscreen can be your "command table" or whatever with a minimap (more detailed than what you usually get in the corner of the screen) and the commands.

This wouldn't work with the mini map as you can't be looking down away from the screen to see the mini map. The mini map pretty much has to be in the corner of the screen.

What's the difference? There would still be A mini map on the screen but just the usual kind. Like if it was dawn of war, the minimap on the tv would still show you enemy blips but the touchscreen would show a little holographicish representation of the unit. Tap on that part of the touchscreen map and the main tv view goes to it. I think it would be fun.

 

[saleem]

I am seeing a lot of concern with regards to speed. Vrach makes a good point but this is not an insurmountable problem. Consider the following control scheme:

RS/LS - panning around the screen*
RS/LS - Zooming in and out*
Touch Screen - selector/pointer
Bumpers and triggers - For left/right mouse buttons
D Pad and A B X Y buttons - various commands
*RS/LS could be swappable for southpaws

This layout would effectively allow you to have the gamepad on your lap while sitting on the couch. Panning and scrolling would work plenty fast and buttons for attack, stop/defend, move and special ability could easily be mapped to the D-pad. For extra stuff you could use the ABXY buttons or even virtual buttons on the screen itself. At the end of the day you would be able to react fast enough so that unit slowdown could be kept at a minimum or even eliminated entirely.

The Wii U doesnt need a key board or a mouse because it already has a mouse equivalent and 10 buttons available after blocking off the ones listed above and that isnt even taking into consideration virtual buttons which could be easily accessed without hassle. As I said earlier I have a petition up - If you would like to see an RTS (and I dont mean something like Pikmin 3) please sign it. You can find the link in the first post now.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well I don't have one but if my mates bought something like that I'd give it a bash.
Porting would probably end badly because PC RTS are not made for sausage finger input, battle info is tiny and packed tight because they know you sit close, competent RTS also utilize half your keyboard, and breaking view with your battle screen would just waste precious time which would end in tears.

But if you made something much slower, possible using pause+order as a game mechanic then things might work out fine, even more so with turn based games.
However I do not recall there being much demand for RTS in console circles so this may be a waste of money.

 

[saintdane05]

Isn't there one already?

 

[saleem]

... battle info is tiny and packed tight because they know you sit close,

Hi Mr.K thats actually a very good point and one that I didnt think of. You probably could scale it up but that would add clutter. I know its a bit of hand waving on my part here but ultimately the designer would have to figure it out.

A pause order system probably would not be very good especially if you wanted a multiplayer experience I dont see how that would work. Your and others are right that a straight up port would not work and what ever the game it would be would have to be heavily tweaked to take advantage of the consoles strength and mitigate its weaknesses especially if you wanted it to be competitive on a cross platform.

Traditionally there hasnt been demand for and RTS on consoles simply because they were incapable of doing it well. The same could be said about shooters though, up until Halo the prevailing wisdom was that shooters were a PC only genre - we all know how that turned out. The same can be said for the Wii U Gamepad it may very well turn out to be to an RTS what the analogue stick was to shooters and reinvigorate the genre.

At the end of the day if gamers get to play more types of games then thats a plus, and if its something that you guys might want to play then please sign the petition - it wont cost you a cent.

 

[Abomination]

I am seeing a lot of concern with regards to speed. Vrach makes a good point but this is not an insurmountable problem. Consider the following control scheme:

RS/LS - panning around the screen*
RS/LS - Zooming in and out*
Touch Screen - selector/pointer
Bumpers and triggers - For left/right mouse buttons
D Pad and A B X Y buttons - various commands
*RS/LS could be swappable for southpaws

This layout would effectively allow you to have the gamepad on your lap while sitting on the couch. Panning and scrolling would work plenty fast and buttons for attack, stop/defend, move and special ability could easily be mapped to the D-pad. For extra stuff you could use the ABXY buttons or even virtual buttons on the screen itself. At the end of the day you would be able to react fast enough so that unit slowdown could be kept at a minimum or even eliminated entirely.

The Wii U doesnt need a key board or a mouse because it already has a mouse equivalent and 10 buttons available after blocking off the ones listed above and that isnt even taking into consideration virtual buttons which could be easily accessed without hassle. As I said earlier I have a petition up - If you would like to see an RTS (and I dont mean something like Pikmin 3) please sign it. You can find the link in the first post now.

I'm sorry, but that control scheme requires you to do something that a mouse and keyboard doesnt - lift your hand up from one controller to the other.

Unless you've got 3 arms the mouse and keyboard is just so superior to consoles, even with a touch screen.

In fact, a touch screen has the massive disadvantage of you covering the very things you're trying to select... not to mention inaccuracies of the touchscreen interface.

No, the RTS market is firmly in the PC camp. They might be able to sell a few copies on a console but they will always sell more if they release it on a PC.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

At this point I think the only thing that would get me to buy a Wiiooo would be if it got a really sick RTS like a Dawn of War spinoff.

I honestly don't think most RTS games made for the PC would be a good fit for the Wii U at all. Aside from the fact that the Wii U still doesn't offer nearly the level of control a keyboard and mouse does, playing an RTS on a touch screen sounds fine and dandy until you realize that your hand is always going to be blocking most of your view. That's not a good thing in this genre.

But that's the cool thing actually: you also have a TV screen which can show the actual battle. The touchscreen can be your "command table" or whatever with a minimap (more detailed than what you usually get in the corner of the screen) and the commands.

This wouldn't work with the mini map as you can't be looking down away from the screen to see the mini map. The mini map pretty much has to be in the corner of the screen.

What's the difference? There would still be A mini map on the screen but just the usual kind. Like if it was dawn of war, the minimap on the tv would still show you enemy blips but the touchscreen would show a little holographicish representation of the unit. Tap on that part of the touchscreen map and the main tv view goes to it. I think it would be fun.

well you wouldn't be able to use the touch screen instead of the mouse then as it would be for the minimap unless there was a button to turn it off. That would be the main problem I see with it the way I think you want it implemented.

 

[Dragonbums]

I am seeing a lot of concern with regards to speed. Vrach makes a good point but this is not an insurmountable problem. Consider the following control scheme:

RS/LS - panning around the screen*
RS/LS - Zooming in and out*
Touch Screen - selector/pointer
Bumpers and triggers - For left/right mouse buttons
D Pad and A B X Y buttons - various commands
*RS/LS could be swappable for southpaws

This layout would effectively allow you to have the gamepad on your lap while sitting on the couch. Panning and scrolling would work plenty fast and buttons for attack, stop/defend, move and special ability could easily be mapped to the D-pad. For extra stuff you could use the ABXY buttons or even virtual buttons on the screen itself. At the end of the day you would be able to react fast enough so that unit slowdown could be kept at a minimum or even eliminated entirely.

The Wii U doesnt need a key board or a mouse because it already has a mouse equivalent and 10 buttons available after blocking off the ones listed above and that isnt even taking into consideration virtual buttons which could be easily accessed without hassle. As I said earlier I have a petition up - If you would like to see an RTS (and I dont mean something like Pikmin 3) please sign it. You can find the link in the first post now.

... not to mention inaccuracies of the touchscreen interface.

It has been 10 years since Nintendo has upgraded and perfected the Nintendo DS handheld family line. In those new DS iterations they have perfected the accuracy of stylus to screen (and even more so finger to screen.)
The Wii U comes with a stylus for the gamepad, allowing maximum accuracy and preventing the "fat fingers" syndrome a lot of tablet users suffer with.
I don't think inaccuracy would be a major problem using a Wii U tablet.

lift your hand up from one controller to the other.

How is this different from sliding your mouse to one side to the other? Especially when both parties can slide the mouse and click or lift up the hand and tap at about just the same speed depending on expertise?

No, the RTS market is firmly in the PC camp. They might be able to sell a few copies on a console but they will always sell more if they release it on a PC.

If shooters- a genre that relies just as much on accuracy, mobility, and efficiency of RTS's are able to thrive on the console market, especially when it was only up until the Wii came out that any of the gaming systems had a control scheme that even came close to the accuracy of the mouse and keyboard as opposed to the clunky controller, then I am highly confident that with enough push, RTS games can thrive on consoles as well. Pikmin managed to do well for itself on the Nintendo systems. Granted it's a niche title so the sales aren't exactly stellar.
Over time, if enough people push for it, RTS can have a very great future on consoles.

 

[GonzoGamer]

At this point I think the only thing that would get me to buy a Wiiooo would be if it got a really sick RTS like a Dawn of War spinoff.

I honestly don't think most RTS games made for the PC would be a good fit for the Wii U at all. Aside from the fact that the Wii U still doesn't offer nearly the level of control a keyboard and mouse does, playing an RTS on a touch screen sounds fine and dandy until you realize that your hand is always going to be blocking most of your view. That's not a good thing in this genre.

But that's the cool thing actually: you also have a TV screen which can show the actual battle. The touchscreen can be your "command table" or whatever with a minimap (more detailed than what you usually get in the corner of the screen) and the commands.

This wouldn't work with the mini map as you can't be looking down away from the screen to see the mini map. The mini map pretty much has to be in the corner of the screen.

What's the difference? There would still be A mini map on the screen but just the usual kind. Like if it was dawn of war, the minimap on the tv would still show you enemy blips but the touchscreen would show a little holographicish representation of the unit. Tap on that part of the touchscreen map and the main tv view goes to it. I think it would be fun.

well you wouldn't be able to use the touch screen instead of the mouse then as it would be for the minimap unless there was a button to turn it off. That would be the main problem I see with it the way I think you want it implemented.

I'll admit, I haven't played a huge amount of RTSs but that's pretty much all I do with the mouse: navigate the map and highlight things on it. So having the touchscreen as the map wouldn't change much about how I play it really just how I navigate the map. It would take a little getting used to at first but after a match or two, I think I would find it more intuitive.

 

[Abomination]

... not to mention inaccuracies of the touchscreen interface.

It has been 10 years since Nintendo has upgraded and perfected the Nintendo DS handheld family line. In those new DS iterations they have perfected the accuracy of stylus to screen (and even more so finger to screen.)
The Wii U comes with a stylus for the gamepad, allowing maximum accuracy and preventing the "fat fingers" syndrome a lot of tablet users suffer with.
I don't think inaccuracy would be a major problem using a Wii U tablet.

Are you telling me you want someone to use both the L & R paddles - which means both hands - AND a stylus to use the touch screen?

That configuration LITERALLY requires 3 hands unless you've developed the ability to hold the stylus with your pinkie finger while manipulating the controller.

lift your hand up from one controller to the other.

How is this different from sliding your mouse to one side to the other? Especially when both parties can slide the mouse and click or lift up the hand and tap at about just the same speed depending on expertise?

Because you never have to remove your hand from the mouse & WSAD when you play the game? Also, the mouse has more functions than just one button. Mouses today - even the most rudimentary - have 2 buttons, a mouse wheel which has 3 functions (wheel up, wheel down and press wheel) as well as mouseover function. This allows for far more options than the relatively binary touch screen, as well as faster options.

No, the RTS market is firmly in the PC camp. They might be able to sell a few copies on a console but they will always sell more if they release it on a PC.

If shooters- a genre that relies just as much on accuracy, mobility, and efficiency of RTS's are able to thrive on the console market, especially when it was only up until the Wii came out that any of the gaming systems had a control scheme that even came close to the accuracy of the mouse and keyboard as opposed to the clunky controller, then I am highly confident that with enough push, RTS games can thrive on consoles as well.

Didn't know there was an auto-aim for RTS games, or some sort of function that allows RTS gamers on consoles to compete with RTS gamers on PCs.

Pikmin managed to do well for itself on the Nintendo systems. Granted it's a niche title so the sales aren't exactly stellar.
Over time, if enough people push for it, RTS can have a very great future on consoles.

A very great niche future, I guess. It's possible to port COD and Battlefield to consoles - games considered pretty much the "best" FPS games with cross-platform marketing (this is the big thing, they can market ONE game to THREE platforms at the same time) - but can you imagine another big RTS title that could be cross-platform marketed? The big names are games like Starcraft, C&C, Warcraft, Dawn of War, Sins of a Solar Empire, & Wargame. How could you play any of those on console without the gameplay feeling "dumbed down"?

Because you would really have to dumb the game down to make it playable.

Pikmin didn't have a PC release, it's WiiU exclusive so it doesn't play the same way and doesn't have the same mechanics as other PC RTS games... and it feels REALLY dumbed down compared to other RTS titles.

You can release a few RTS games on consoles, but PC RTS games will always be capable of far greater complexity and control.

 

[Dragonbums]

Are you telling me you want someone to use both the L & R paddles - which means both hands - AND a stylus to use the touch screen?

That configuration LITERALLY requires 3 hands unless you've developed the ability to hold the stylus with your pinkie finger while manipulating the controller.

Why would an RTS game require you to use the Left and Right triggers on the gamepad? Especially when it is completely possible to play an entire game on the touch pad. Not even considering the fact that holding and sliding works just as well for scrolling up/down/left/right on the screen? If the main gameplay function of RTS's is to scout, select units, move units to different locations, so on and so forth, all of those things are possible simply using the touch screen. Even inventory is simple.

Because you never have to remove your hand from the mouse & WSAD when you play the game? Also, the mouse has more functions than just one button. Mouses today - even the most rudimentary - have 2 buttons, a mouse wheel which has 3 functions (wheel up, wheel down and press wheel) as well as mouseover function. This allows for far more options than the relatively binary touch screen, as well as faster options.

With the tablet you are able to quickly tap on units, or items you want to select. You can easily scroll around the screen by holding down the stylus and moving in in whichever direction you want it to go. If you don't feel like doing that, I'm certain the two analog sticks which are basically very much within your fingers grasp can accomplish the same thing. You can quickly tap and drag specific units to certain locations, the overworld map can easily be integrated onto the touch screen, so on and so forth.

Both control schemes have their pros and cons. That does not mean either of one are better than the other. Mouse and Keypad has the advantage because it's been there longer. However both control schemes are perfect for the genre.
You are making the touchpad interface seem a lot more horrible than it really is.

A very great niche future, I guess. It's possible to port COD and Battlefield to consoles - games considered pretty much the "best" FPS games with cross-platform marketing (this is the big thing, they can market ONE game to THREE platforms at the same time) - but can you imagine another big RTS title that could be cross-platform marketed? The big names are games like Starcraft, C&C, Warcraft, Dawn of War, Sins of a Solar Empire, & Wargame. How could you play any of those on console without the gameplay feeling "dumbed down"?

Because you would really have to dumb the game down to make it playable.

Pikmin didn't have a PC release, it's WiiU exclusive so it doesn't play the same way and doesn't have the same mechanics as other PC RTS games... and it feels REALLY dumbed down compared to other RTS titles.

You can release a few RTS games on consoles, but PC RTS games will always be capable of far greater complexity and control.

Shooters were probably proclaimed to be a niche future on consoles back in the day too. And look where it's at right now. Sells millions. For a few in particular 10's of millions. The same future can be within grasp with RTS games.

You really need to back up the claim that RTS games would be "dumbed down" on the Wii U.
You really do.
Because as far as I'm concerned, it's difficulty came from the computer AI. Not the mouse and keyboard configuration.

Pikmin isn't a "dunbed down" RTS.
It simply has different priorities.
The real challenge in Pikmin comes from now how hard it is to do anything, but how fast and efficiently you can accomplish the tasks at hand.
Many people were turned off by the first Pikmin due to how unforgiving it was with the time restraints.

 

[RicoADF]

RTS works well on my PS Vita so since the Wii U's tablet is practically the same thing it'd do it too. I'd like to see some done on there, it'd be interesting to see the results.

Captcha: head over heels - I'm not THAT eager captcha.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

At this point I think the only thing that would get me to buy a Wiiooo would be if it got a really sick RTS like a Dawn of War spinoff.

I honestly don't think most RTS games made for the PC would be a good fit for the Wii U at all. Aside from the fact that the Wii U still doesn't offer nearly the level of control a keyboard and mouse does, playing an RTS on a touch screen sounds fine and dandy until you realize that your hand is always going to be blocking most of your view. That's not a good thing in this genre.

But that's the cool thing actually: you also have a TV screen which can show the actual battle. The touchscreen can be your "command table" or whatever with a minimap (more detailed than what you usually get in the corner of the screen) and the commands.

This wouldn't work with the mini map as you can't be looking down away from the screen to see the mini map. The mini map pretty much has to be in the corner of the screen.

What's the difference? There would still be A mini map on the screen but just the usual kind. Like if it was dawn of war, the minimap on the tv would still show you enemy blips but the touchscreen would show a little holographicish representation of the unit. Tap on that part of the touchscreen map and the main tv view goes to it. I think it would be fun.

well you wouldn't be able to use the touch screen instead of the mouse then as it would be for the minimap unless there was a button to turn it off. That would be the main problem I see with it the way I think you want it implemented.

I'll admit, I haven't played a huge amount of RTSs but that's pretty much all I do with the mouse: navigate the map and highlight things on it. So having the touchscreen as the map wouldn't change much about how I play it really just how I navigate the map. It would take a little getting used to at first but after a match or two, I think I would find it more intuitive.

Well while that might be fine for the game if it was built around it that is not good for a lot of current RTS games especially ones where you can be micro managing troops for maximum effectiveness.