X-Com/Darkest Dungeon & Missing

[Prime_Hunter_H01]

Turn based games like this are not for everyone that is for sure, as you need to accept that this is a bit of "realism" that hits you in the face of your grand plan. Normal games put character action in your hands but these games put strategy in your hands and need to use this system to give your characters a sense of being a person, not a game piece. The middle ground of chess and actually commanding an army. I am perfectly fine with it personally though I know the frustration when it is highly skewed and even a 90+% is results in multiple misses.

I do like your idea, though modified to 3 state hit roll of Normal, partial, and missed hits. Maybe a 90 guarantees no misses but you can still just glance, where as 50% is less off a risk of full miss but maybe more glancing blows.

Also what is going on behind the scenes affects your experience. I know depending on the game Fire Emblem has a 1 random number and 2 random number hit calculations. 1 random number is 1 number compared to a hit stat calculated from various inputs of the game, where as 2 rn is an average. The 2 rn basically curving high hits to hit more, and low hits to miss, better explained here https://serenesforest.net/general/true-hit/. I do not know how Darkest Dungeon and Xcom are calculating but they are either simpler or more complex than that which both depending on implementation can affect how often you feel like you are making a difference.

Its definitely skill based, though that skill is strategy. A good play in Xcom can lead to a full turn of misses being a minor set back, where as a bad play can lead to failure even if all your agents crit. Though it really is up to the game to figure out if it wants you to have this freedom, I remember a bunch of complaints about enemy within and the self destructing Meld forcing rush play. I can agree.

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

I've recently started playing Darkest Dungeon and, while I enjoy the game immensely, I have now finally made my mind up about one thing in this game and others like it: I cannot abide missing a shot. I have never felt anything other than frustrated after missing a 90% shot at a critical moment that can decide a game. It's not actually skill based, it's rarely controllable (the Jester can boost stats, for instance, but you can still miss, of course) and I've 'never' enjoyed it as a game mechanic. It sucks!

As an alternative, I would instead prefer that all hits land, but that a 'miss' would instead result in, say, 1/4 damage dealt; and have it apply both ways, for fairness sake. At least that way it would still feel like progress. Does anyone else feel the same, or do you disagree? I'm genuinely curious.

Well it's 90% so these 10% miss chance has to happen one time or another (Murphy's law) otherwise it would be 100%. Skill is being able to recover from it. Plan ahead or deal with it, when it happens.
These games are not for all. They resemble real life in that mechanic. To few people, too much. If you have to cope daily with being delt shitty cards/curve ball etc. you may not appreciate that also be part of your leisure time.

I play these games for such moments. To yell at and scorn my poor PC for 'being a complete dick' but it's cathartic stress relief. You may not always have in actual life opportunity, ability or simply time when these 10% happen. You just deal with the outcome instantly and move on, yet stress (due to i.e. disappointing, improbable outcome that denies you something you worked for) builds up regardless how well you deal with it on the surface.

PS
BTW where is news about x-com 2 expansion going live like yesterday/today? Thought Escapist was still portal about gaming?

 

[lacktheknack]

Disagree. These games are about risk management, and so a fail state is needed. It wrecks the "risk" part otherwise.

Forced hits are a HORRIBLE idea. Think how that would affect death's door in Darkest. My entire strat for keeping my glass cannon grave robbers alive at that point relies on heavy dodging. Don't take that from me!

And in XCOM. You think you're frustrated now, imagine how utterly enraged you'd be if your soldier at two health dodged a shot... And then died anyways.

Bunk. Utter bunk.

If you can't handle flubbed risks, you're playing the wrong games. People talk about bad rolls ruining "critical, game-tipping moments", but good players rarely even get into these situations in the first place, let alone have these things "keep happening".

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

16 pages of garbage threads - if anyone is interested which number to click to get to normal forum content.

 

[iwinatlife]

The only thing that bothers me is where games seem to hide numbers from you. For Example I have my most skill Warp Guard Take a swing at a Zombie in Mordheim 95% chance to hit....MISS. Ok fine Probability happens try again next round MISS!...hmmm seems odd but give it one more go MISS! OH COME ON!!! The phenomenon I was suffering from is that his chance to hit is indeed 95% however that for some ungodly reason is a separate roll altogether from the enemies DODGE roll...the Dodge percentage from foes is not listed as far as I am aware so you never really know what your percentage to hit actually is.

Other than that? Fuck Stupidity checks Lost a game cause my rat ogre rolled stupid 6 separate times.

 

[bjj hero]

Games like this are about managing risk. I play bloodbowl online which is dice based. Most actions will always fail at least 16% of the time. You have to include this in your planning.

The better players still win consitently. They set up contingencies for if things fail and make less "must succeed" plays as there are no guarentees.

It takes a different mind set and perspective than a lot of games. If you hate rng then there is always chess...

 

[Gennadios]

I don't think missing is the lone problem in those games. HP is so low on both sides that those misses often either rob the player of a kill, or expose the player's character to certain death. Hell, the early game of XCom can get a player's character killed in one hit, while in full cover.

I've been playing the Battletech beta lately, and board game adaptations do it so much better. Chance to hit is often 1/6 or 1/3, but mechs have multiple weapons and they can all be fired at once is the mech isn't overheating. When individual chance to hit is really low, the player has the chance to bury the enemy under volume of dice at the risk of an overheat.

Also the mechs are meaty and have modular damage and lots of HP, a single round of shooting might cripple a mech but rarely take it out of play.

Although there was one game where an enemy autocannon shot hit my best mech right in the cockpit and killed the pilot right at the beginning of the engagement on round 2. You can bet that pissed me off.

 

[Worgen]

Missing in them is really annoying but those games are all about managing risk and if the risk becomes too great, retreating.

 

[lacktheknack]

I will say this, though: Darkest Dungeon is a lot more manageable if you make a point of upgrading equipment. Sure, +5% chance to hit may not seem worth 2000 gold, but taking someone's chance-to-hit from 80% to 105% with full upgrades makes misses impossible - and it also counteracts 5% of enemy dodge abilities (the way it works is it subtracts the enemy's dodge from the hero's chance to hit, then rolls a number from 1-100).

My Dismas has full upgrades + a Highwayman's Belt + Ancestor's Pistol/Musket Ball (can't remember which), so he has some absurd thing like 140% chance to hit with a 30% chance to crit. You'd better believe he's on every Shrieker fight. And if he does a normal dungeon run, I don't think he's ever missed once, because he's guaranteed to hit something with a dodge as high as 40 and stands great odds up to dodge 50 (and he crits in one in three shots, sometimes once in ten, and sometimes three in a row).

There's tons of strats you can use if missing really pisses you off (first and foremost: Never use the Leper).

Antiquarians are good too, because even though they have underwhelming stats and abilities (on purpose), a well-aimed string of flashbombs will utterly ruin an enemy tank. Fully upgraded, a dedicated flashbombing antiquarian will drop a tank's aim by 30, so if their 100% hit ability is dropped to 70%, and my grave robber downs a toxic trick and bumps her dodge up to 55%, suddenly the tank only has a one in eight chance of ever hitting her. A riskier but similar tactic can be done with the antiquarian's dodge booster.

Also, don't underestimate an upgraded houndmaster with a dodge collar and his guard ability. In a long battle, guarding exclusively, the houndmaster can constantly defend another character while managing a dodge rate of over 100%. Basically, any attack aimed at either of the two heroes WILL miss (with rare exception). It's a game breaker in long fights. The only way the enemy can possibly win is through small-fight attrition (houndmaster is vulnerable at the start of fights) or through area attacks killing everyone else, since houndmaster can't boost his dodge once he's all alone (although he remains a pain to hit).

It really makes up for you missing when the bad guys can't stop missing either.

If you insist on not missing, specialize in the scariest party of all: An arbalest, occultist, houndmaster and bounty hunter, all with target-based abilities active. Goodbye, weald giants.

What I'm trying to say is that Darkest Dungeon offers these almost-cheating methods on purpose, and there's a lot of fun in experimenting and finding them (they even give you hints with named parties). Instead of running standard parties and getting yourself into must-win scenario (a sign you've already lost), try to find parties and trinkets and runs that mess with the enemies and the game's limits. Misses will become uncommon, because you'll find and stick with anti-missing mixes.