X-men vs. Marvel

[KazeAizen]

So the first world problem that plagued my mind today. The entire concept of the X-men universe just doesn't jell with me. Hold on let me explain. It doesn't jell with me in the greater Marvel Universe. I'd like to think that I know enough of the Marvel universe to be well versed in it and one thing that always struck me. Why is it that only the characters of the X-men portion persecuted? I mean its the whole civil rights but with super powers kind of thing but still. The Avengers, Fantastic Four, and others seem to either be praised or at least not turned into villains in the public eye. But those damn mutants they are totally different then the other super powered people that constantly save our asses.

Is there something I missed or has anyone else got this vibe at all that, even though they are cool and awesome, the X-men and their cast don't really mesh with the greater Marvel Universe. Its actually for this reason that should Marvel Entertainment ever get their rights back that I'm not exactly sure the X-men as we have come to know them would fit into the Marvel Cinematic universe even if it would be cool to see.

 

[FalloutJack]

Aren't the Avengers government-sanctioned and the Four comprised of a world-famous scientist and company?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

All I can think of is the X-Men started out as mutants whereas The Avengers and Fantastic Four started out human, Thor notwithstanding. As genetic freaks, the X-Men are mostly anonymous and bear a social stigma that reaches as far back as the '60s, whereas half of The Avengers are just super-soldiers and the Four, from what I remember from those horrible movies, where celebrities of their own to begin with and the media coverage more or less cushioned their transition into super-mode.

 

[Vausch]

The Marvel universe civilians are dumb twats. That's pretty much the gist of it. They kinda have this notion that if you GET powers, you're fine. If you're BORN with them, then somehow that makes you inherently evil or worth scorning. X-Men in particular because theirs are caused by genetics (not that that doesn't apply to aliens too, but they're often not liked either). It's why the X-Men are allegories for homophobia and racism. Remember "Have you tried NOT being a mutant?"

I've actually been wanting to see what would happen if all the Marvel and DC heroes switched universes. Just the hilarity of people like Superman being attacked for being an alien while Magneto (he kinda counts due to his very complicated history) losing his very reason for existing because most civilians in the DCU just don't care.

 

[BlackJimmy]

So the first world problem that plagued my mind today. The entire concept of the X-men universe just doesn't jell with me. Hold on let me explain. It doesn't jell with me in the greater Marvel Universe. I'd like to think that I know enough of the Marvel universe to be well versed in it and one thing that always struck me. Why is it that only the characters of the X-men portion persecuted? I mean its the whole civil rights but with super powers kind of thing but still. The Avengers, Fantastic Four, and others seem to either be praised or at least not turned into villains in the public eye. But those damn mutants they are totally different then the other super powered people that constantly save our asses.

Is there something I missed or has anyone else got this vibe at all that, even though they are cool and awesome, the X-men and their cast don't really mesh with the greater Marvel Universe. Its actually for this reason that should Marvel Entertainment ever get their rights back that I'm not exactly sure the X-men as we have come to know them would fit into the Marvel Cinematic universe even if it would be cool to see.

It could work. It'd need to go deeper into what the existence of natural mutations like this means for the rest of humanity religiously and sientificly.

There's also the the question: "If these people exist, why didn't they help out the Avengers during the Battle of New York and the Battle of [Avengers 2 Climax Location]? The lazy jerks!"

playing the anto mutuant thing more subtle could also work out.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Maybe it's because superheroes like Captain American, Spiderman, Hulk got their powers via accidental/ alternative means while for the mutants like Nightcrawlers, Cyclops etc got their superpower via genetics ie born with it or when he/ she hit puberty.
I suppose the reason why some people view a mutant as a threat is that it means anyone (with the right genetics) can have powers which they deem danagerous while it is only a few or selected few like Hulk or Captain America can acquire powers vis alternative/ accident means (which superheroes lore played out that not all survive the experiement).

 

[b.w.irenicus]

To use Spooney's words, for me it doesn't work that in the Marvel-Universe people go like "Yeah, look, it's Spider-Man, go, Spidey, go! Wow there! A mutant! Fuck him!"
Thats why I'm actually relieved that we ain't gonna see the X-Men enter the Marvel-Movie-Universe anytime soon due to legal circumstances.

 

[Launcelot111]

My reasoning has always been that most superheroes, mutant or not, operate under some degree of secrecy in trying to protect their identity and thus don't present themselves as abnormal in their daily life. The issue with a lot of mutants is that they look weird or that their powers are not entirely controllable or something, so they have no choice but to stand out in their community as abnormal. Also remember that not too long ago in the comics, there were the 200 or so costumed heroes that headline books (many of which have no superpowers) but 6 million or so mutants in the general population.

My rationalization of this is that someone who is bigoted against mutants probably wouldn't be comfortable with most powered superheroes but would conclude that the kid down the street whose only mutation is that he has three arms is probably an easier target to pick on.

 

[Something Amyss]

Aren't the Avengers government-sanctioned and the Four comprised of a world-famous scientist and company?

Indeed. The FF are completely open and the Avengers have had government blessing. At least, both were true. I don't know what's up with the universe currently.

Avengers have also dealt with prejudice against their mutant members.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

In any case, does anybody actually WANT the X-Men to show up in the Marvel universe? How're they supposed to fit in? They can hardly hold all of their characters together. Imagine a movie with

Iron Man
Captain America
Hulk
Thor
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Nick Fury
Wolverine
Cyclops
Storm
Professor X
Rogue
Iceman
Etc.

Avengers was crowded enough with Hawkeye.

 

[Vivi22]

If it helps, an awful lot of mutants (at least these days) are hideously deformed. And the Fantastic Four and Avengers are somewhat government sanctioned/known to be good people before they got powers.

I try to think of it like this: Train a soldier to use a gun and go off and fight a war. That's no problem.

Give randomly chosen people of any potential cultural or social background anything from a knife to a nuclear bomb, and have those people number in the millions across the globe. How safe do you feel living in a world like that?

 

[DeimosMasque]

The reason mutants get hated and feared while people like the FF and Avengers and Spider-Man and what not are not is because of the context of what mutants represent.

Mutants are (in the Marvel Universe) the next step in human evolution. They are supposed to flat out replace humanity as a whole, and not only that many of them have powers that make them the equivalent of an entire army, so its easy to create a fear-mongering viewpoint of them.

They are here to replace us! When was the last time you saw a neanderthal running around? You don't because we killed them all... now the mutants are going to do the same to us! And they are so powerful there's nothing we can do to stop them, our police and armies are worthless. We need to register them all and round them up so that they cannot replace us!

Think of it that way and you can see where they may have no problem with Spider-Man or Thor but have a real problem with Cyclops or Colossus.

 

[KazeAizen]

The Marvel universe civilians are dumb twats. That's pretty much the gist of it. They kinda have this notion that if you GET powers, you're fine. If you're BORN with them, then somehow that makes you inherently evil or worth scorning. X-Men in particular because theirs are caused by genetics (not that that doesn't apply to aliens too, but they're often not liked either). It's why the X-Men are allegories for homophobia and racism. Remember "Have you tried NOT being a mutant?"

I've actually been wanting to see what would happen if all the Marvel and DC heroes switched universes. Just the hilarity of people like Superman being attacked for being an alien while Magneto (he kinda counts due to his very complicated history) losing his very reason for existing because most civilians in the DCU just don't care.

They actually did do that kind. The Avengers/JLA comic crossover event. They switched worlds and The Avengers were worshipped as heroes while say someone like The Flash was chased around a city. It is a good story that personally I think every single DC/Marvel should make it a mandatory edition to their library....that and the fact that Superman uses Cap's shield and Thor's hammer for just a moment.

 

[Trivea]

I think a lot of it, too, has to do with media portrayal (like how Spider-Man does get a lot of in-universe hate simply because of the way the newspaper shows him), which is easy enough to prove true by looking at the real world even today.

Though I think one of the primary differences lays in the villain's portrayals of themselves. Most of the villains in the Marvel universe are openly self-serving, "look at me look at me bow to me I'm the best ever I will fix all the things" etc etc, while the X-Men villains tend to be more, "I am a mutant and you are humans and therefore you will die". It's easier to separate the former category's heroes and villains, because while the latter may have the distinction of some being X-Men and others The Brotherhood of Mutants (which is a misleading name anyway), they're still all mutants. Sure, it's in-universe racist, but it's probably also hard to distinguish a "good mutant" from a "bad mutant" until they're either trying to kill you or saving you from a collapsing building. Easier, then, to get rid of the whole lot of them.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

The hatred for spiderman is'nt because he's a mutant, it's because they simplistically make J.Jonah.Jameson hate him and blacken his name, for no reason.

You've never seen someone in the media pick a person or group and attempt to assassinate their character? Folk in the media need no prompting or reason to spout biased opinions around and call it "news". It may not be right, but its how things work.

OT: Well, you're missing the point of the X-Men. They're a non-sanctioned team of mutants who's sectarian conflicts devastate whatever area they tend to happen at. Due to powers that normal humans don't have. This, and the fact that ANYONE could be a mutant makes fear skyrocket and polarizes the community against these people. The Avengers aren't necessarily official but most of their members are accessible and known to the people as heroes... Fantastic Four are people who were in a terrible accident and happened to get powers from it instead of dying. Also they use their real names and don't hide who they are.
Plus mutant fear is a very real thing in society, just replace mutant with "homosexual" or some other xenophobic reaction to something not "normal".

 

[KazeAizen]

To use Spooney's words, for me it doesn't work that in the Marvel-Universe people go like "Yeah, look, it's Spider-Man, go, Spidey, go! Wow there! A mutant! Fuck him!"
Thats why I'm actually relieved that we ain't gonna see the X-Men enter the Marvel-Movie-Universe anytime soon due to legal circumstances.

Yeah. Don't get me wrong I do want to see X-men vs. Avengers as much as the next guy but it is comforting to know that I'm not the only one who saw this and raised a red flag or two. If DC starts getting their movie universe right after MOS 2 they at least will have a coherent universe because everything jells over there. There is nothing as far as I could tell like this contrast that is in the Marvel verse.

If and this is a big if. If Marvel ever does get the rights to X-men, Fantastic Four, and Spider-man back the smart thing to do would probably be have the X-men in another universe. The other two you could just say got their powers after Loki and Ultron invaded. Simple. For the mutants though just so that dissonance wouldn't be so jarring you'd have to go in a new Earth. Then you run right smack dab into the other big problem. While these movies are proving you can make the convoluted inter connecting world thing from comics work in movies audiences might just stone cold confused when they start pulling the multiple earth stuff. Maybe. That is pretty much what I have come to view as the pinnacle of comic book weirdness. We can follow that stuff ok but to outsiders that would just be too damn much. Either way I do love the X-men but yeah this has always been really strange for me.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

To use a quote from Batman Begins: "It doesn't matter who I am, but what I do defines me."

Spider-Man and all the rest got famous because they saved people, fended off alien invaders, battled power-mad scientists etc. with their powers. The mutants in the X-verse can't at least initially control their powers and don't always decide to use them for good. Just think about the most well-known mutants in the Marvel-verse and then remove their control over their powers or using them for evil: Wolverine accidentally stabbing people or slaughtering them with wild abandon. Professor X messing people's minds up, intentionally or not. Storm causing hurricanes inadvertedly or to rob a bank.

If it helps, an awful lot of mutants (at least these days) are hideously deformed. And the Fantastic Four and Avengers are somewhat government sanctioned/known to be good people before they got powers.

I try to think of it like this: Train a soldier to use a gun and go off and fight a war. That's no problem.

Give randomly chosen people of any potential cultural or social background anything from a knife to a nuclear bomb, and have those people number in the millions across the globe. How safe do you feel living in a world like that?

A pretty good analogy IMO.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

To chip in, I think part of the reason is that the other superheroes are one offs: Iron Man built his powers, Thor came from another planet, Hulk, Spiderman and the Fantastic 4 were one off accidents, and their degree of Government backing kind of correlates to their degree of public trust

The mutants could be anyone, at any time, with any powers, and maybe more will come. There's no quantifying how many mutants there are, or how powerful they are, or what all their motives are, but we know there will be more and more.
Plenty have already become frightening criminals, mass murderers, some can't even control their powers!

It's the fear of the unknown. After the initial shock, the public know the extent of who Thor or Spiderman are, but they'll never know who the mutants are or if they are friendly or not.