XBone and cloud computing: why is nobody talking about this?

[Jandau]

Seeing all the discussions about the XBone and all the complaints, arguments and counterarguments, one thing never seems to be brought up: Cloud computing

I'm assuming that most people know at least in general terms what this is, but to put it simply, it means that a piece of software doesn't do certain calculations locally, but rather on a separate server, with the results being sent back.

Why is this relevant to the whole XBone thing? Two reasons:

First, people are making a big fuss over the "check in once every 24 hours" thing. Other people are saying it's no big deal. But the check-in is irrelevant - if major titles use cloud computing you'll HAVE to stay online to actually PLAY anything. You'll need a constant, stable, high speed connection or your game won't work. If you're bothered by the daily check-in you should be furious about this.

Secondly, how well is this going to work? Well, there are examples. Take OnLive, for instance. Or take SimCity. In general, cloud computing hasn't really got a very good track record. Even in the MMO genre it is endured because it's a necessary evil, but the lag and connection issues are still there in most modern MMOs. And now those same issues are about to be applied to single player games.

Seriously, of all the features of the XBone, this one deserves way more attention that it's getting...

 

[Greyhamster]

It did get attention. Eurogamer made an article about it: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

The bottom line was: Microsoft is being vague about it and Eurogamer couldn't really come up with useful implementations of cloud computing: The latency and bandwith of current internet is just too limiting. As far as I gathered from it there's currently two possible uses for the cloud in gaming (aside from saves and stuff) which are: Stream the comlete game from the cloud or don't use the cloud.
Naturally, the first point is just key: Xbox is being vague about it. They might have a wonderful innovative ace up their sleeve... Or they are talking nonsense. I'm betting on the second one.

Oh, and Simcity calculates nothing on server as far as I know, so it's not really a valid example of cloud computing. It is a valid example of what happens when you shove online DRM into a single player game.

 

[Dryk]

They said that they'd have three XBones worth of processing power reserved for every console sold. I'll believe that they can bother footing the bill for all that hardware for no cost when I see it.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

The bottom line was: Microsoft is being vague about it and Eurogamer couldn't really come up with useful implementations of cloud computing: The latency and bandwith of current internet is just too limiting. As far as I gathered from it there's currently two possible uses for the cloud in gaming (aside from saves and stuff) which are: Stream the comlete game from the cloud or don't use the cloud.
Naturally, the first point is just key: Xbox is being vague about it.

And that's why people don't mention it as often as the other features, we just don't know enough, and it might not even be implemented (although with MS saying they were setting up 300,000 servers I'd imagine they want devs to include this).

It was mentioned quite a bit after the presentation happened for the exact same reason OP mentioned: that it would render the once a day online moot by making the games always online anyway. It was kinda dropped when MS went for their no comment stance on the always online bit.

 

[Jimmy T. Malice]

Sure, they mentioned it - but they're obviously making it up. Offloading processing onto MS's servers would never work, simply because of latency. It's just an excuse for having to be online to play games at all.

 

[ryessknight]

Noones talking about it cause its a already provin failure. So its just one more in the long stream of fail that is the xbone.

 

[Wyvern65]

This is just another re-branding of DRM a la EA's "SimCity is a MMO, for reals!"

You know what I see this so-called cloud being used for almost exclusively - save games.

It's just one more way MS is aping Steam (except in Steam you can turn it off per game and I doubt you'll get that option on the XBone.) Tie the game purchase more firmly to the account and the always-online requirement.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Well, we don't know what the cloud computing is actually going to be doing for different games. It could be involved with calculations that don't actually affect the game much, and which the game will be allowed to run without.

Think for example about Halo 4. Halo 4 has a component called "theater mode" which records your multiplayer gameplay. It records every single match you play from every single possible angle. Now imagine if this was done by the cloud instead of your xbox, it would probably free up some memory and online multiplayer might lag a little less.

Now of course this is just an example of how it could be used well. We can't really predict how developers will use it, and to what extent. It could make some games completely unplayable offline, or it could do various cosmetic things like doing calculations for particle effects, which when removed from the offline wouldn't affect the game at all.

The cloud is one of those things that should be a "wait and see" type thing. Depending on its implementation it could be good, or it could be absolutely awful. Don't forget though, that even if cloud computing isn't used by a game at all, a publisher could still decide that they want the game in an always online state on the Xbone, which is what's truly wrong with the console.

 

[faefrost]

I think as of today, the big question is, are those separate Cloud Computing Servers located in a sub basement of the NSA building in Virginia?

 

[Zeh Don]

The problem is that we can't prove one way or another whether or not this is bullshit, because we don't have the console nor a game that is supposed to be reliant on the cloud.

On paper, it's bullshit.
In theory, it's bullshit.
In practice, it's bullshit.
But we can't prove that it's bullshit yet. So, the gaming media at large can't throw accusations at Microsoft.

And Microsoft know it. They've renamed everything online to "the cloud", and are throwing it around, because at this point "the cloud" is magical and mysterious. They can use the lack of knowledge about "the cloud" to sell it to the casual crowd and non-gaming crowd, despite the fact that it is an outright lie.

As a software engineer, I assure you: Microsoft are lying to the public. They know they're lying. At BEST this rubbish will be SimCity style DRM - it does nothing, but it's there anyway. At worst, it's Diablo III - laggy, rubber-banding and borderline unplayable for some 50% of the player base.
Of course, luckily, you can't get a refund and you can't trade in thanks to Xbone's hardware level DRM. So, we're fucked.

 

[Doclector]

I think it's because xbone scares people off so instantly with its preownded bullshit, signing in to play games you own legally, the mandatory use of kinect (which I doubt fares any better than it did this generation as far as how well it actually works in a game goes) and the focus on TV and sports instead of actual games.

With all that going against it, most people have made up their mind before they even think about the disadvantages/advantages of the cloud.

 

[Requia]

I think as of today, the big question is, are those separate Cloud Computing Servers located in a sub basement of the NSA building in Virginia?

No. They're in an NSA complex in Utah.

 

[ThriKreen]

One possibility I could see where it can be used beyond cloud storage of saves is to set up server hosts for MP games on a whim, instead of having the need for dedicated servers to exist already for that game, or one of the players hosts in a p2p set up.

Theoretically that means it can scale up and down as needed, and provide continuous support without relying on a publisher-managed server farm where the servers are dedicated to one particular game at a time, and later phased out for whatever reason. As long as there's the latest server version to image from on the cloud side of things, it can set up a VM to host the server, then when people are done with the match, shut the VM down and free up the memory and processor to be allocated to other servers.

And it can hopefully negating any advantage the local guy has over the remote people, and balance the game a bit better for latency.

Not sure how that would go for games that have some persistence, like say BF3-style games, but those are probably special cases.

 

[omegaweopon]

Conspiracy theory ahead! Pay no attention to the man behind the nuclear warning.

How can Microsoft guarantee that they will have the server size available, all while maintaining low lag times, and other factors. Well clearly, the cloud they are talking about is your Xbox One

Think about it. The console uses 8 gigs of ram, 5 are available for the developers. The distribution of users ensure there's always someone nearby with a fast enough connection to use relatively low lag scenarios. The Xbone, by default, uses standby mode as its form of shutting down. Thus allowing the processor to run its calculations, and realy, unless you used a voltometer on the thing how would you know. They can always ensure they have enough server power to cover their bases, if they even only sell four units. And if the higher ups at MS had their own Xbones... then they've already got their 4 consoles.

End conspiracy theory.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

The problem is that we can't prove one way or another whether or not this is bullshit, because we don't have the console nor a game that is supposed to be reliant on the cloud.

On paper, it's bullshit.
In theory, it's bullshit.
In practice, it's bullshit.
But we can't prove that it's bullshit yet. So, the gaming media at large can't throw accusations at Microsoft.

And Microsoft know it. They've renamed everything online to "the cloud", and are throwing it around, because at this point "the cloud" is magical and mysterious. They can use the lack of knowledge about "the cloud" to sell it to the casual crowd and non-gaming crowd, despite the fact that it is an outright lie.

As a software engineer, I assure you: Microsoft are lying to the public. They know they're lying. At BEST this rubbish will be SimCity style DRM - it does nothing, but it's there anyway. At worst, it's Diablo III - laggy, rubber-banding and borderline unplayable for some 50% of the player base.
Of course, luckily, you can't get a refund and you can't trade in thanks to Xbone's hardware level DRM. So, we're fucked.

This.

Anyone calling them out on their bullshit is going to get "fine, prove it."

Here's the closest I can get to proving it without being 100% sure of what I'm talking about and with back-up.

You ever see pictures of computer clusters and all? The reason they are good or at least useful at their tasks is because:
1. Their data transfers instantly to the next machine (no bandwidth problems)
2. They are all running towards one goal (ie. doing the same thing).


http://www.joystiq.com/2013/05/28/digital-foundry-examines-xbox-one-cloud-computation-claims/
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

 

[Shoggoth2588]

I only knew The Cloud as a means of storage. Don't have room on your hard drive to store a game or game data? Save on The Cloud! That kind of thing. Based on what OP said about Cloud Computing...that sounds like a pretty bad idea to me and has done nothing to endear me to the XBone.

I've read some responses and there would be too much to quote in-full so I'll just say I'm going to leave this console right the Hell alone.

 

[Madman123456]

Very well, i'd say that there is a unusually low probability that this it not bullshit. I have never seen a lower probability of something not turning out to be bullshit.

 

[Stavros Dimou]

Seeing all the discussions about the XBone and all the complaints, arguments and counterarguments, one thing never seems to be brought up: Cloud computing

I'm assuming that most people know at least in general terms what this is, but to put it simply, it means that a piece of software doesn't do certain calculations locally, but rather on a separate server, with the results being sent back.

Why is this relevant to the whole XBone thing? Two reasons:

First, people are making a big fuss over the "check in once every 24 hours" thing. Other people are saying it's no big deal. But the check-in is irrelevant - if major titles use cloud computing you'll HAVE to stay online to actually PLAY anything. You'll need a constant, stable, high speed connection or your game won't work. If you're bothered by the daily check-in you should be furious about this.

Secondly, how well is this going to work? Well, there are examples. Take OnLive, for instance. Or take SimCity. In general, cloud computing hasn't really got a very good track record. Even in the MMO genre it is endured because it's a necessary evil, but the lag and connection issues are still there in most modern MMOs. And now those same issues are about to be applied to single player games.

Seriously, of all the features of the XBone, this one deserves way more attention that it's getting...

Once I tried to play Metro 2033 through the cloud with OnLive on my computer.
The latency with my 12Mbps effective speed of internet connection was huge,and the game was unplayable.
To be able to play that game at High graphics settings,even without dx11,I'd have to have the next DSL package my provider has,which is 50Mbps.
But you know what ? Instead of paying 20 euros per month that I pay now,I'd have to pay 100 euros per month to have this connection.
It was way more cost effective to just give 150 euros to buy a new graphics card that will be able to play the game straight through my computer. And I still use this card a year after and don't feel the necessity to buy another one yet.
Oh and with this graphics card I can play Metro 2033 on High.


But what it really broke it for me with OnLive is what I've read on those tiny letters in the disclaimer.
That even if you pay full price for a game,you will be able to play it only until when OnLive decides to close down its servers,and that OnLive doesn't guarranty that you that it will let you download the game's files at any time,making sure that you will be able to play the game you paid full price for after their servers close.

Naahh.... I prefer to BUY the games I pay for. To OWN them. To able to play them WHENEVER I want,even after 20 or 30 years.