You All Depress Me: Something We Need To Acknowledge.
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The game did have a one hand mode... I recall it from the advertising. There is this duality with the game. In one theory you have this empowered character who is sexy for themselves and not for the player, but then you also have elements that are basically the opposite. Like that one handed mode. (Reminds me a little of wolfenstein the new order in that respect.)Alma Mare said:
I would be confused. Why mommy mode? *Head shake* Anyway when I heard of it, it was called one handed mode. When you hear about the game, or watch the ads for the game (Like that one subway ad they had) you get a this impression that likely doesn't match the actual game. That is the duality I was talking about.Alma Mare said:
I love how one second I check this thread and I find reasonable responses, including ones that don't agree with my own.
The next second I find moral disengagement.
Perfectly said.
In addition Aetrion, your point would be valid if and only if;
1. You had absolute proof that the only time content creators change something is when they have outside/public feedback (and as both a writer and artist I can tell you that's wrong and that I have changed things I've written and drawn because I've viewed them as being rude or morally repugnant, not because of outside sources, but because upon further observation encourages me to do so.)
2. You assume that public pressure is a wrong thing to have. Never mind boycotts, news reporting, opinion pieces, your own post, etc.
3. The metrics of what you consider to be either insults or 'feedback' as you so sweetly call it, were set in stone and agreed upon by society.
4 (Dependant on 3.)You could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that ALL of the opinions presented - not just those shown on social media but all emails, blogs and (yes) forums posts were all inflammatory based on said metrics.
Quick question though, which is more inflammatory, by your standards?
Choice A:
Choice B
The kicker
Keep in mind we still aren't all bound to agree with you.
The next second I find moral disengagement.
LifeCharacter said:
Perfectly said.
In addition Aetrion, your point would be valid if and only if;
1. You had absolute proof that the only time content creators change something is when they have outside/public feedback (and as both a writer and artist I can tell you that's wrong and that I have changed things I've written and drawn because I've viewed them as being rude or morally repugnant, not because of outside sources, but because upon further observation encourages me to do so.)
2. You assume that public pressure is a wrong thing to have. Never mind boycotts, news reporting, opinion pieces, your own post, etc.
3. The metrics of what you consider to be either insults or 'feedback' as you so sweetly call it, were set in stone and agreed upon by society.
4 (Dependant on 3.)You could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that ALL of the opinions presented - not just those shown on social media but all emails, blogs and (yes) forums posts were all inflammatory based on said metrics.
Quick question though, which is more inflammatory, by your standards?
Choice A:
Obsidian?s new game, Pillars of Eternity, included the following joke (written by a Kickstarter backer) on a tombstone:
Some people vented their frustrations about transmisogynistic implications of this piece. In response, Obsidian promised to look into the matter. In a recent patch, the material was removed and replaced with a different piece. According the backer who wrote the original joke, Obsidian asked if he wanted to change it or not and he decided to.
Inexplicably, this milquetoast event has become the newest battleground for nerds ranting about free speech and censorship, despite the fact that what actually happened was about as far away from ?censorship? as you can possibly get. By that chain of logic, you?d have to associate every single change a developer makes in response to criticism to censorship, which is absolutely absurd.
This is what I?m talking about when I mention how some parts of the internet have weird and inane conceptions about how free speech and censorship works. Taken to its logical conclusion, all criticism is an attempt as silencing developers. In practice, it only comes up when the criticism is about something they disagree with.
You can complain about wonky camera controls and, if a developer patches in improvements, they?ll be praised as being responsive to criticism and consumer friendly. It?s only when a game?s social implications are questioned that the issue of censorship even comes up.
Some people vented their frustrations about transmisogynistic implications of this piece. In response, Obsidian promised to look into the matter. In a recent patch, the material was removed and replaced with a different piece. According the backer who wrote the original joke, Obsidian asked if he wanted to change it or not and he decided to.
Inexplicably, this milquetoast event has become the newest battleground for nerds ranting about free speech and censorship, despite the fact that what actually happened was about as far away from ?censorship? as you can possibly get. By that chain of logic, you?d have to associate every single change a developer makes in response to criticism to censorship, which is absolutely absurd.
This is what I?m talking about when I mention how some parts of the internet have weird and inane conceptions about how free speech and censorship works. Taken to its logical conclusion, all criticism is an attempt as silencing developers. In practice, it only comes up when the criticism is about something they disagree with.
You can complain about wonky camera controls and, if a developer patches in improvements, they?ll be praised as being responsive to criticism and consumer friendly. It?s only when a game?s social implications are questioned that the issue of censorship even comes up.
Choice B
Hey transgender facsit cunts. FUCK YOUR FEELINGS.
The kicker
The top one comes from Tumblr. The only post I've been able to find about this particular issue, all the rest are fan art or loving the game.
The bottom one's a commenter from this clearly inflammatory article that takes one comment from twitter, that in my own opinion is just saying 'hey, not cool man', and spins it into something its not. (Note, if he had more proof that 'sjws were losing their mind' over this I'd agree. At this point, its more like someone says it's chilly outside and you say that they are complaining like they were stranded in Antarctica and insult them - a clear exaggeration of the truth.)
http://www.reaxxion.com/6981/sjws-lose-their-minds-over-transphobic-joke-in-pillars-of-eternity
Also, said blog complained about the change and called for a boycott, while also saying that Obsidian some how ignored their core audience; male gamers.
Never mind the male gamers that may or may not be trans or are in support of the idea mind you. Keep in mind that a forum is not the actual public audience, nor even a faction of it - but another 'vocal minority' that uses a public forum for its outcries/comments/complaints/'feedback'.
The bottom one's a commenter from this clearly inflammatory article that takes one comment from twitter, that in my own opinion is just saying 'hey, not cool man', and spins it into something its not. (Note, if he had more proof that 'sjws were losing their mind' over this I'd agree. At this point, its more like someone says it's chilly outside and you say that they are complaining like they were stranded in Antarctica and insult them - a clear exaggeration of the truth.)
http://www.reaxxion.com/6981/sjws-lose-their-minds-over-transphobic-joke-in-pillars-of-eternity
Also, said blog complained about the change and called for a boycott, while also saying that Obsidian some how ignored their core audience; male gamers.
Never mind the male gamers that may or may not be trans or are in support of the idea mind you. Keep in mind that a forum is not the actual public audience, nor even a faction of it - but another 'vocal minority' that uses a public forum for its outcries/comments/complaints/'feedback'.
If you're going to call something an outrage or 'abuse', have the evidence to back it up. Not just one post on twitter either, but a unified front of inflammatory comments.Aetrion said:
Keep in mind we still aren't all bound to agree with you.
I think it'd be in the sense of "you need Mommy's help with this". You'd have to ask Hideki Kamiya, though, he's the one who coined the term.nomotog said:
I do agree Platinum did a pretty poor job of publicizing the game. When I first heard of it I thought it was YET another brawler with a gimmicky character to draw attention. Only years after I was made to notice, almost by accident, that it's not only one of the best spetacle fighters ever made but also incredibly commited to its tongue-in-cheekiness.
So I'm a hypocrite for not hearing about a story concerning a mobile spin-off of a series I've never had any interest in the first place? Good to know.
You gotta pick your battles, man. To quote Obi-Wan (because May the 4th, bitches), "this little one's not worth the effort." Besides, it's freaking Final Fantasy. You know, the franchise where fashion sense goes to die. The kid looks ridiculous either way.
You gotta pick your battles, man. To quote Obi-Wan (because May the 4th, bitches), "this little one's not worth the effort." Besides, it's freaking Final Fantasy. You know, the franchise where fashion sense goes to die. The kid looks ridiculous either way.
Dang, I'm sorry to disappoint. 
I think I was one of the first responses in the Final Fantasy thread and went with a "don't care" sort of stance. Really, I personally don't care whether it's a male or a female character. The overwhelming majority of the time, I don't want a designer or artist to alter their would-be final vision when it comes to (for me) inconsequential stuff like how much of their body is being covered by their clothing. Nudity isn't some unforgivable sin.
Take me at my word or not, that's how I feel.
I think I was one of the first responses in the Final Fantasy thread and went with a "don't care" sort of stance. Really, I personally don't care whether it's a male or a female character. The overwhelming majority of the time, I don't want a designer or artist to alter their would-be final vision when it comes to (for me) inconsequential stuff like how much of their body is being covered by their clothing. Nudity isn't some unforgivable sin.
Take me at my word or not, that's how I feel.
Except I have before and in the past posted about how I;NiPah said:
Don't view Bayonetta as being objectified but rather sexualized and empowered through the story in which she is shown.
Said that sexualization is not a bad thing in previous threads both on these very forums and off them.
Said that sexualization should be fair and equal.
Said that men can be objectified as well.
(Not even going to get into how many news posts were made on the outfit change or the nature of the internet to actually spread information, thus disproving whatever point you're trying to make with a 'Japanese only' event.
Especially considering the worldwide popularity of anime....and our avatars.)
Note: I can't tell from your post, but I'm talking about the selective outrage against the changes, not the changes themselves. I don't care that Mevius was changed, in fact I wasn't a huge fan of the outfit - but I'm upset that now that its a man on the side of 'stupid FF-outfit ville' people got upset enough to order Square Enix to make changes and no one really said 'hey yeah, how dare you not stand up for yourself'?
Same here. I would be perfectly fine with the removal of ridiculous outfits if Final Fantasy's female characters weren't MADE of that stuff (See: Fran, the overall sexualization of her and her race throughout multiple Final Fantasy games, Lulu's infamous skirt of belts, which I liked. ) and I'd be perfectly fine with the lack of said outrage about the outfit if people weren't complaining about Mevius' outfit before.Solaire of Astora said:Dang, I'm sorry to disappoint.
I think I was one of the first responses in the Final Fantasy thread and went with a "don't care" sort of stance. Really, I personally don't care whether it's a male or a female character. The overwhelming majority of the time, I don't want a designer or artist to alter their would-be final vision when it comes to (for me) inconsequential stuff like how much of their body is being covered by their clothing. Nudity isn't some unforgivable sin.
Take me at my word or not, that's how I feel.
It's my own fault though - I held the internet up to a standard of behavior. First mistake. Hopefully the last time I'll make it. (It won't be. But here's hoping that when I finish up my stories, artwork, etc, I can fit in a man in ridiculous armor - then they begin crying out I can look down and say 'No.')
(On a side note - I would love a Final Fantasy game with the scope of 12, with ALL THE RACES OF THE FFT UNIVERSE PLAYABLE. Stop ignoring that the Nu Mou, Bangaa and Moogles that fight exist SE. I know you know. Make a 3-D non-handheld one already. You did it for Duodecim, you can do it here!)
Moral disengagement combined with purely opinionated response hidden as fact. Very nicely done.Neverhoodian said:
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Internet's a big place. Kind of difficult to get much consistency in terms of how people perceive or behave with these things. :v I might not like alterations of a character's design when they've been otherwise finalized, but I'm not going to get particularly upset over it either way, and certainly not based on gender. So yeah, I'd say just keep consistent with what you want to do. It's not worth compromising yourself for what some anonymous fella or group on the internet said. Or in certain cases, yelled loudly enough to provoke a response, whether it was placating or hostile.Angelblaze said:
[sub]personally, I think the world needs a new FFT game period, and not set in the fantasyland Advance universe, but Square Enix is too busy being shitty to ever have that happen[/sub]
Ok I'll admit I got defensive because there is quite a lot of truth to your argument, had this been turned the other way I could see myself being angry.Angelblaze said:
A good example would be Lucky Chloe from Tekken, I was quite pissed when she was taken out of the game due to fans saying she had no place in the game. Now Tekken is not a game I'd most likely get (albeit it is coming to the West), and also instead of just changing the costume she [maybe] will be completely removed from the game, but in the end it's a similar situation where one side I care about, and the other I just don't.
I guess in the end it's not just a distaste for censorship, but censorship of things we care about.
People on the internet hold different opinions? Is there anything more that that selection of news stories indicates?
Maybe if you have specific people holding opposite opinions on both of those stories, it might mean they're being hypocritical, but is even that a particularly big deal?
I'm not sure even that would be the case, personally. Looking at those news stories, I personally am more irritated with the "Transphobic joke" one. That's simply because with that story, it really does seem that there was an attack on free speech. There were large groups of people outraged and spewing bile and threats at Obsidian for a random joke added by a backer to the game, which is what caused it to be changed.
As far as I'm aware, with the Final Fantasy character it was just released, people didn't really like it or had a reaction they weren't going for with it, and they changed it to be "less sexy" with the possibility of going back if they change their mind later. The huge outrage, threats, and insults never occurred[footnote]Again, as far as I can tell.[/footnote], so there's nothing for me to be annoyed about.
I care about the specific joke and the specific outfit equally (which is to say not at all), but the reaction to the first one I find horrible.
Maybe if you have specific people holding opposite opinions on both of those stories, it might mean they're being hypocritical, but is even that a particularly big deal?
I'm not sure even that would be the case, personally. Looking at those news stories, I personally am more irritated with the "Transphobic joke" one. That's simply because with that story, it really does seem that there was an attack on free speech. There were large groups of people outraged and spewing bile and threats at Obsidian for a random joke added by a backer to the game, which is what caused it to be changed.
As far as I'm aware, with the Final Fantasy character it was just released, people didn't really like it or had a reaction they weren't going for with it, and they changed it to be "less sexy" with the possibility of going back if they change their mind later. The huge outrage, threats, and insults never occurred[footnote]Again, as far as I can tell.[/footnote], so there's nothing for me to be annoyed about.
I care about the specific joke and the specific outfit equally (which is to say not at all), but the reaction to the first one I find horrible.
no it really didnt , your mistaking some tiny little collection of a few sites were a hugely vocal minority of what i can only assume are middle/upper class teenies with absolutely nothing real to worry about get into a self indulgent hurricane of neurotic piss , over a whole bunch of what is to any reasonable person around just a little trivial and mostly irrelevant.Angelblaze said:
all you have to do is stop reading these sites and the problem goes away.
Personally I find it a little disheartening that most of this ended up causing "Let's see who can scream the loudest!" arguments in the first place. The PoE joke was really the only one that I feel is worth any kind of discussion.
On the one hand, you have the obvious implication of transphobia, a pretty real problem and (in my opinion) one of the last shitty types of intolerance of our culture that generally needs to be stamped out. Jokes like that help facilitate it in the eyes of a lot of people. On the other hand, the outrage kinda ignored the context of the poem, as it was painting the "Hero in bed" in question to be kind of a douche-bag in the first place, and him killing himself was representative of that rather than transpeople being evil or scary or whatever.
I personally don't really care about it (though I did chuckle at the replacement poem admittedly), but it was pretty indicative of an actual problem we're currently facing and the subject of some pretty good questions that should be asked. Stuff like: how hurtful are our current accepted biases? What is the guideline for criticizm and how far is too far? At what point does free speech (or whatever) become irrelevant in the face of the problems that real people face? Stuff like that. All pretty good stuff. Those other two? "Wah, Batgirl is shown as weak on a comic book cover!". "Wah this character's hips are showing. That makes him gay and I don't like my heroes to seem gay!"
I know, I know, what's not important to me can be important to others and my ideas of what should be discussed and what shouldn't stamps out discussion, I get it. Still, these reactions of "change it!" "Don't change it!" "You're a sexist!" "You're a coward!", as well that the creation of STUUUUPID FUUCKING terms like SJW being used un-ironically... I feel like all it does is do a damn good job of rendering the whole of these types of overall discussions so utterly bloated and numerous that it's easy to get burnt out and opt to take a leave of complete indifference, just to save yourself the stress of keeping track of it all at once.
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tl;dr when everything's an issue, nothing is, and gamers don't have a very good grasp of where the line is drawn.
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Sorry, now that I read this post over, it doesn't have much to do directly with the OP. Mah bad. Still, that's my two cents on the climate of nerd culture right now, and here is as good a place to post it as any, since I usually steer clear of this kinda thing.
Also, my Captcha: "Yellow Belly". Such is the curse of being an observer rather than a participant. You get yelled at from all sides, even randomly generated codes on websites... curses.... T_T
On the one hand, you have the obvious implication of transphobia, a pretty real problem and (in my opinion) one of the last shitty types of intolerance of our culture that generally needs to be stamped out. Jokes like that help facilitate it in the eyes of a lot of people. On the other hand, the outrage kinda ignored the context of the poem, as it was painting the "Hero in bed" in question to be kind of a douche-bag in the first place, and him killing himself was representative of that rather than transpeople being evil or scary or whatever.
I personally don't really care about it (though I did chuckle at the replacement poem admittedly), but it was pretty indicative of an actual problem we're currently facing and the subject of some pretty good questions that should be asked. Stuff like: how hurtful are our current accepted biases? What is the guideline for criticizm and how far is too far? At what point does free speech (or whatever) become irrelevant in the face of the problems that real people face? Stuff like that. All pretty good stuff. Those other two? "Wah, Batgirl is shown as weak on a comic book cover!". "Wah this character's hips are showing. That makes him gay and I don't like my heroes to seem gay!"
I know, I know, what's not important to me can be important to others and my ideas of what should be discussed and what shouldn't stamps out discussion, I get it. Still, these reactions of "change it!" "Don't change it!" "You're a sexist!" "You're a coward!", as well that the creation of STUUUUPID FUUCKING terms like SJW being used un-ironically... I feel like all it does is do a damn good job of rendering the whole of these types of overall discussions so utterly bloated and numerous that it's easy to get burnt out and opt to take a leave of complete indifference, just to save yourself the stress of keeping track of it all at once.
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tl;dr when everything's an issue, nothing is, and gamers don't have a very good grasp of where the line is drawn.
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Sorry, now that I read this post over, it doesn't have much to do directly with the OP. Mah bad. Still, that's my two cents on the climate of nerd culture right now, and here is as good a place to post it as any, since I usually steer clear of this kinda thing.
Also, my Captcha: "Yellow Belly". Such is the curse of being an observer rather than a participant. You get yelled at from all sides, even randomly generated codes on websites... curses.... T_T
Fear not, my catgirl-loving friend, Chloe wasn't removed, Harada was just being a dick and trolling for the sake of it. Chloe's gonna breakdance all ovah these betches in the West as well as the East.NiPah said:
"Are you ready?"
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Double post, but the above one is long-winded enough as it is and I want people to skip it if they don't wanna hear see me ramble.