You Are Not An Artist

[MeChaNiZ3D]

...am I the only one who thought perhaps it was going a bit far to assume that we are, every one of us, programmers? Or...am I the only non-programmer on here?

At any rate, programming can be artful, and even art, with a broad definition. I think the real issue is whose vision or intent it is. And that is lost in development a lot of the time, and those games forfeit artistic integrity. And I willd efinitely say that when a sequel is made with the desires of the fanbase as its sole concern, all artistic integrity goes out the window.

 

[Lieju]

Quick! Somebody tell me why I should give a damn about the way Shepard walks!

The way someone walks, their posture, their gait etc tells you quite a lot about the character.
A soldier used to combat and danger is going to walk differently than an office worker who hasn't done a days hard physical labor in their life.

At it's worst it can take you out of the experience if it looks dumb or silly.

As for the OP; you're being silly and using some pretty weird definitions of art. How is an artist going to convey anything if they don't understand how stuff works?
Or can't actually build or paint the things s/he is thinking about?

Is reading the script of the movie just as good an experience as watching it? Of course not, writing is certainly important, but especially in a huge project like that there are a lot of people who will contribute to the final product.

 

[Lieju]

>Implying engineers cannot be artists.
>Implying programming cannot be artful.
>Implying a very narrow definition of art.

This.

I have a friend who writes good code - VERY good code. One time, he wrote a program which was so elegant, compact, well-designed and efficient that it was regarded by other programmers as "a piece of art".

And it evoked great emotion from programmers who saw it, so who are YOU to say that it's not art?

Also, the OP says that an artist does not care at all about the "how".

I can safely conclude that the OP is either not an artist, or a very mediocre one.

I personally consider a good graphic that illustrates something, or an elegant equation a piece of art. Or even a scientific paper.
But I personally see art and science as intertwined.
(Science as the thing that figures out how things are, and art as the thing that conveys those truths to people)

 

[Nikolaz72]

If an artist only ask what and why, let me ask you theese two questions.

What king of a person are you that you believe that you can judge what art is?
And why do you come to -this- forum, the only possible explanation to that would be that you wish to promote a negative reaction from a group of people that seems to lean in support of something that you are against. Thats not looked kindly upon on the internet.

 

[Jordi]

Part of me hates to even write this. But I know it's true, so I will anyway.

Now that the dust has settled over most of the ME3 fiasco (even if you like the endings, it was still a fiasco in one sense or another...) I wanted to make a point that I feel is getting lost on everyone these days.

You write code. You are not an artist, you are an engineer. Allow me to explain the difference.

An artist doesn't care for "how" in any way, shape

Yes, an artist really does care how. Ask any animator, and they'll tell you they care how.

Why would we ask an animator? They are not artists. They are programmers. They are just monkeys that implement the writers' vision.

Spoiler

At least, that's what I imagine chuckdm would say. From what he wrote, you'd think he never met an artist, programmer or even a game. The number of people who agreed with him in this topic makes me very happy though.

 

[Chemical Alia]

But just so we're clear, engineers can be artists as well. Leonardo da Vinci anyone? And that's just the most famous example. There are probably people in gaming industry that do the coding and some story writing or drawing and things like that.

Sort of, usually those people are called technical artists.

D'oh, I'm slacking on being the next da Vinci.

>.>

I'm trying to be the next Christian Riese Lassen.

I think I'm doing it wrong, though. 0:

 

[FalloutJack]

Quick! Somebody tell me why I should give a damn about the way Shepard walks!

The way someone walks, their posture, their gait etc tells you quite a lot about the character.
A soldier used to combat and danger is going to walk differently than an office worker who hasn't done a days hard physical labor in their life.

At it's worst it can take you out of the experience if it looks dumb or silly.

As for the OP; you're being silly and using some pretty weird definitions of art. How is an artist going to convey anything if they don't understand how stuff works?
Or can't actually build or paint the things s/he is thinking about?

Is reading the script of the movie just as good an experience as watching it? Of course not, writing is certainly important, but especially in a huge project like that there are a lot of people who will contribute to the final product.

As a member of the Ministry of Silly Walks, I find that the walkies of my characters are not...all that important. I would merely find it funny.

 

[DioWallachia]

SNIP

This thread is going to be fun

First: BW work for EA

Second: Just say that the Artistic Integrity went out of the window when it was 2 of x writers that worked on the ending ALONE without the input of the rest.

Third: They work for EA (Artistic Integrity was deader than death at this point)

Fourth: Videogames have the same problem that films had before when doing a collaborative effort, and if a single one of them doesn't care then all goes to the toilet. Either you:

A)Work alone in your vision and take forever to do it, all while the world keeps going and possibly, by sheer poor luck, your idea may have been already tried by a bunch of hack writers of Hollywood and wasted beyond all reason. If that movie was successful, by the time you finish your work, you will be labeled as a cancer that is trying to cash in the success of that movie, and therefore, you are a hack writer. If that movie sucked, then people will still hate you because you used an idea that sucked and they are CONSTANTLY reminded of that horrible movie, and therefore, you are a hack writer. Morton Fork FTW!!

B)Work with lots of people that barely want to hear about your vision because THEIR ideas are MUCH better than yours. You all cant agree and end up just following the market because it they wasted so much time arguing.

C)Start a new character with 18 Intelligence, 18 Charisma and 18 of Wisdom to have the best dialog options to persuade the people in B) to tell you about THEIR ideas and work your way slowly into having each one complete. After that, you kill them and hide their bodies in a freezer (extra priority if there are women among them) and claim ALL the works as yours. Murder is the best solution

D)Just make a Twilight Rip off to pay the bills and then use that money to invest on medical research to analyze the people who like that kind of shite AND to fund your work.

----
Anyway, why cant it be both? why cant the engineer ask both HOW and WHY/WHAT? Keep in mind that there is nothing wrong for me to have all those questions in the artist mind, after all, Orson Welles didn't know anything about making films when creating Citizen Kane but that didnt stop him from asking questions on HOW would something work.

 

[DioWallachia]

You don't really know how game development works, do you? Because you're riding on a massive wave of assumptions here.

Massive.

And mostly wrong.

I will just ask before he does and flames ensue. HOW does the game development works? explain in detail or give a link with instead if that is too much to ask

 

[ThriKreen]

I will just ask before he does and flames ensue. HOW does the game development works? explain in detail or give a link with instead if that is too much to ask

It's hard to describe it, one can write all about it but it's hard to convey the experience without having actually gone through the development cycle: the early mornings and late nights, the endless meetings, the joy in seeing something work, the frustration in trying to figure out why something else does not. Seeing all the pieces fit slowly over time.

AFAIK, only two people in this thread know what it's like in the trenches.

 

[Faraja]

Why would we ask an animator? They are not artists. They are programmers. They are just monkeys that implement the writers' vision.

Spoiler

At least, that's what I imagine chuckdm would say. From what he wrote, you'd think he never met an artist, programmer or even a game. The number of people who agreed with him in this topic makes me very happy though.

Well, he's wrong, for one. And if you agree with him, you're wrong. If you actually knew anything about animation, or animators, you'd know they are in fact artists. At an actual art school, you aren't even supposed to touch 3D animation, until you've grasped 2D animation. Most of the Disney animators started out as fine artists. Most of my teachers at the Art Institute started out as fine artists.

In terms of coding, the character riggers deal with most of it. Yes, there is some involved, especially with repeating animations like walk cycles, but no where near as much as the rigger uses. All the coding does is help speed up the process.

Just because the writer comes up with the story, doesn't mean that the animators aren't artists. Are the background and environment artists not artists because they're creating a scene around what was provided by the writers?

Further more, more and more 2D cartoons are being written as their pitched. The guys behind Phineas & Ferb actually made a rap song about it. So, there's actually a lot of artistic skill involved in 2D animation that doesn't involve a writer.

 

[Faraja]

I will just ask before he does and flames ensue. HOW does the game development works? explain in detail or give a link with instead if that is too much to ask

It's hard to describe it, one can write all about it but it's hard to convey the experience without having actually gone through the development cycle: the early mornings and late nights, the endless meetings, the joy in seeing something work, the frustration in trying to figure out why something else does not. Seeing all the pieces fit slowly over time.

AFAIK, only two people in this thread know what it's like in the trenches.

One of my teacher's lent me a book about getting in the game industry. In it, there was this short comic about one guy trying to explain his position as a game designer. I believe it went something like this;

Clueless dude: "So, what do you do for a living?"
Dev: "Well, I'm a game designer.?
Clueless dude: "Oh, so you design characters?"
Dev: "No, the character designers do that."
Clueless dude: "Oh, so you create backgrounds and environments?"
Dev: "No, the environment artists do that."
Clueless dude: "Ok...So, do you do the animations?"
Dev: "No, the animators do that."
Clueless dude: "Well, then, what do you do?"
Dev: "Apparently, nothing."

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Oh my God! A blast from the past! It burns

Other than that...you are correct - "artistic integrity" does not mean what people throwing it around ME3 thought it means. Now that I think about it, ME3 managed to destroy so much of the dictionary meanings, that it could be considered a factor of illiteracy.

Where's Zeel when you need him?

This topic will never die.

Ever.

I like to think Zeel moved to 4chan and is ruling "The Horde".

 

[Mouse One]

As someone who recently picked up a gig writing for a game (browser based, don't hate me), I find the OP's apparent adulation of us wordsmiths a bit laughable. Don't get me wrong, I find what I'm doing pretty darned satisfying artistically. But this notion that the writers are controlling the entire narrative and artistic direction all by their lonesome? Excuse me for a moment as I choke on my chortles.

In all seriousness, one of the coolest things about working on a game is a chance to interact with some amazingly creative and artistic people. This notion that art is lessened by the need to work with constraints is absurd. The very nature of collaboration imposes constraints because you have to take into account what everyone else is doing. Are we saying that True Art can only exist as a non-commercial, solo venture?

No, we're not saying that. Because that would be silly.

 

[Phlakes]

You don't really know how game development works, do you? Because you're riding on a massive wave of assumptions here.

Massive.

And mostly wrong.

I will just ask before he does and flames ensue. HOW does the game development works? explain in detail or give a link with instead if that is too much to ask

This is pretty much spot on and saves me some time-

It's hard to describe it, one can write all about it but it's hard to convey the experience without having actually gone through the development cycle: the early mornings and late nights, the endless meetings, the joy in seeing something work, the frustration in trying to figure out why something else does not. Seeing all the pieces fit slowly over time.

-but to put it simply, OP's whole "nobody asks 'why' except writers" is ridiculous and more than a little insulting. I guarantee every person on a dev team has put more thought into their work, and in more ways, than anyone in this thread ever would as a consumer.

 

[DioWallachia]

-but to put it simply, OP's whole "nobody asks 'why' except writers" is ridiculous and more than a little insulting. I guarantee every person on a dev team has put more thought into their work, and in more ways, than anyone in this thread ever would as a consumer.

At best, the people there are trying REALLY hard to put their own ideas into the work so that at least, in a future, they can make a game about that particular mechanic/character/etc if they have the support of the fans. The problem is that doing your own thing without considering ITS impact on the whole theme/story/setting of the work as a whole may end up reducing it rather than elevate it.

 

[Bocaj2000]

>Implying engineers cannot be artists.
>Implying programming cannot be artful.
>Implying a very narrow definition of art.

I know... it was painful for me as well. The amount of ignorance OP displays is frightening.

 

[Rayne870]

Ok so the pure programming isn't art fine, I can accept that, but it deserves some reverence as a science or at least a language. The rest of the work: story, character design, level design, music, texture and all that jazz is purely ART!