You people are insane....(Yet another rape thread)

[RafaelNegrus]

Think of this, if something terrible could be prevented, why would you not take every precaution you could take? If I go out to the beach I know I'd get sunburned so I take precautions and bring a hat and sunscreen. If they didn't want rape to ever occur to them then they could have simply covered up or not get drunk, it's very simple precautions that they decided to ignored.

I think the nuance you might be missing is that sunburn is a reasonable expectation. You go out in the sun, and it's reasonable that you might be sunburnt, so taking precautions is a reasonable course of action.

There is never a case, ever, wherein there is a reasonable expectation of rape. If that is the society in which we live, then we need to fix our society, cause that is a fucked up state of affairs.

It doesn't have to be a reasonable expectation in order for it to be something that you should want to work to prevent, I'll toss out the casual example of wearing seatbelts on basically every car ride, even though you don't expect to get in a car accident.

For a more detailed example I'll pull this out. My friend was visiting Paris a couple of weeks ago, and got mugged while at the train station. Nothing really bad happened, but he got very scared and immediately left to go back home to the States.

I myself am going to be visiting Rome in the next few weeks, so as soon as we heard the news the immediate discussion my father and I had was how I might avoid going through a similar experience. So we thought of things like not going to cash machines in vulnerable places, keeping my money hidden at all times, and not carrying valuables around with me, etc.

The idea is that we want to stop rape from happening then that is what we need to do, because I myself cannot control how others act, and so I will work to prevent it from happening to me, the same as with any crime. In the specific case that is getting discussed when she drank so much that she passed out she gave up all control over the situation and removed any chance she had of stopping something bad from happening to her, be it rape, a fire, or just vomiting and choking on it.

I think it is a reasonable goal to want rape to happen less often, and if that is so then rape prevention is not just viable but necessary.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

However, most people who dress revealingly are doing it for... Fuck knows why, But I'm fairly sure they aren't attempting to get raped.

They dress like that to pickup chicks/dudes and get laid, also for attention. I see no other reason since it doesn't protect you from the weather or feel comfortable.

How about to make yourself feel good?
Because you think it looks nice?
Because it follows curret fashion?
Because you might want to look special that night?

Jesus, it's not hard.
I remember it being the general consenus of other women that ladies dress more for other ladies than for dudes.

OT: Forum's creepy obsession with rape aside, no item of clothing gives you the right to put your hands on another person without their permission. End of. Maybe that's the message we should put out more- less `don't go anywhere you could possibly be raped, don't wear this, don't do this`.

This. The message shouldn't be don't do things that you enjoy because somebody might rape you, it should be, don't rape/abuse people. Ever. Don't be that guy/gal.

And wow at the fact that people are claiming you can accidentally rape somebody. Just no. Maybe grope without realising it's unwelcome, but if it isn't clear after that, then either they ARE consenting, or they are passed out.


This forum needs less hot button topics. More spiderman.

Spoiler

 

[Zantos]

I don't think I can say anything on the topic that hasn't already been said here or in the many other threads about this. But two minor points.

1) I have been to a lot of parties involving drugs, alcohol and sex. I know many people who have been to many parties involving drugs, alcohol and sex. And not one of these parties involved anyone being sexually assaulted. Whoever said that at these sort of parties you should be prepared for that is either talking out of their arse or going to the wrong parties. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it's not exactly commonplace.

2) Murder can't be accidental. It requires malice, you can't accidentally plan to murder someone then go out and do it. Manslaughter, that can be accidental.

 

[xPixelatedx]

If you put on a colorful sign like Bruce Willis did at the start of Die Hard 3, and walk into a black neighborhood known for violent crimes and gang activity, you don't deserve to die, no... but it's probably going to happen. Everyone knows it's going to happen; you know it's going to happen beforehand to, regardless of how 'politically incorrect' it is to say it.

When it comes to sexual assault, I certainly cannot say all cases are predictable and avoidable, but some could have been avoided, regardless of how flamboyant you think everyone has a right to dress. Walking into places full of individuals with little to no sense of morality (particularly if they are people known for violence), and doing so basically naked, is probably also going to elicit a predictable outcome. No one deserves that, and I don't necessarily think that's the message people were trying to convey. But was it predictable? Should the victim have known better for those particular circumstances? Yes.

 

[Gilhelmi]

snip
And hope to god this fad ends soon...

Sadly, stupidity is not a fad but eternal. Through a study of history, every culture/believe(that includes you atheists), in every corner of the world, has fallen due too the ineptitude of its culture.

The only hope left is that people like you and me, who still posses common sense, can stop the waves of stupidity. The good news is that it has happened in the past, so it can happen again. America was founded on enlightenment. A couple others examples, but you get the point.

Only in our modern era, WITH THE POWER OF THE NET, can we fight the plague of stupid. With the words of truth, with the arguments of reason. Those who think will rise again.

Viva la Revolution

(I know a little crazy, I got excited)

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

1: Being the victim of Rape because of your own stupidity does not take responsibility from those who did it.

2: Being dressed like a slut/Man-whore does not entitle people to Rape.

These most often refer to date-rape charges that are blown out of proportion on all sides. The amount of women who actually file date-rape charges for a drunken mistake isn't as large as people would believe and the amount of people referring to actual rape when this happens is even smaller. Usually the reaction is appropriate to date-rape.

3: Rights for Rapists

It's called prison and every criminal faces it. There's also the sex offenders register and other punishments in place for rapists. Some rights cannot ever be taken though.

 

[TheNamlessGuy]

DELETED

 

[TheNamlessGuy]

DELETED

 

[Eynimeb]

Hm. Alright, here goes.

Rape perpetrators have rights because inalienable rights are a fundamental element of a just society. There can be no buts and ifs.

Rape is never excuseable. Any arguments regarding the victim's history, circumstances, intoxication of victim or perpetrators; all of them are utterly irrelevant. Responsibility always lies with the perpetrator, period. We are responsible for our actions - There can be no hiding behind chemicals, twisted logic, collective hate, etc.

The fact that wearing 'provocative' clothing increases the likelihood of being raped does not make the victim responsible - it is their right to wear it, and it is the perpetrator's right not to commit rape. No matter how sad reality may be, we can't shift responsibility to the victims.

 

[Baron_Rouge]

OK, first of all, you can't accidentally murder someone. You can accidentally kill someone, but murder, by definition, is premeditated, and therefore intentional. Also, having never been a rapist, I can't really comment on the proposition that they do it because it's "in the nature"...and neither should you. There are a whole host of environmental/social factors that could contribute to someone doing a terrible thing like this; saying it's in their nature makes it sound like they're born that way. Again, social factors are in no way an excuse for such a horrific crime, I'm just saying that it probably isn't as simple as saying they're horrible people...because it's in their nature.

 

[Colin Bagley]

Silly OP...
Ofc it could happen unintentially.
Combine mixed signals, lack of overt "yes I want you" and "no i don't" s, most probably due to alcohol, Teasing as legitimate form of flirtation, the whole say-one-thing-and-mean-another stuff that some women come out with, and social ineptitude on behalf of the "attacker", It definitely seems possible.

and then throw in some False Rape allegations to add some uncertainty to the credibility of Legitimate allegations...

It seems like you are all for a system where all anybody ever needs to do to ruin somebody for good, is accuse them.

As for the "They show flesh so should be raped", as a reportedly popular defence. This is so retarded and counter to all possible logic, that I refuse to believe that anybody put this forward as a serious defence, and ANYBODY agreed. So either you encountered something resembling this and misunderstood, copied it from somebody who did, or flat out made it up.
And since I've seen other similar assertions elsewhere, I'm betting the 2nd option. Either that, or you REALLY get about.

 

[karamazovnew]

snip
I expect some form of backlash from some of you.
To you, I say:

And hope to god this fad ends soon...

Unfortunately, I'll have to stop with this pic, because my views on rapists and what particular medieval tortures ought to be done to them might scare some people here.

 

[Broax]

I hate rape... I'd kill all rapists... But still, there are a lot of "rapes" that are nothing more then guilt trips from slutty women/man that willingly go to bed with another man/women.

Also I would never *EVER* say it's a women's fault for dressing slutty, or that if you're a slut then it's magically ok for you to get raped but if you act like a slut you're gonna be treated like one. I'll make an analogy... I'm a smoker, I know smoking is wrong for me and if I get cancer (Specially if I die) I'll be pissed but I won't be totally surprised by the fact that me doing an harmful act will lead to me getting harmed.

I'll put it like this: A women has every right to wear which ever clothes she deems acceptable the same that I have a right to use an iphone alone, at night, in a dark alley on a wrong neighborhood... But if I don't want to get mugged I should understand that my actions have effects and consequences. If you dress all slutty and act like a slut you should (in no way shape or form) be raped but you should know that you're boosting the odds against you...

As for the "accidental rape" it *can* happen... If you're drunk and you're with a girl who's drunk and she wants to get laid you'll give it to her. Sometimes she's more drunk then estimated or she was just no being herself or whatnot... Maybe she passed out during the act but it might happen.

I guess a guy should use his judgment but if she has the right to drink past the point of her good judgment so should the guy. I've never been in such a situation (thank god) and I've been known to refuse "shags" just because the girl was too drunk. But it had nothing to do with not wanting to rape her or some feeling of wanting to save her poor soul... I just don't like wasted girls...

Also there's a thin line (very thin in some girls cases) between saying "no" and actually saying "NOOO!!!!". The whole "your mouth says no but your eyes...". I've been with girls that straight up said they wanted nothing to do with me but I pulled my act together and eventually earned a silent "yes". Not silent in a chloroform way, mind you! Silent in a "we were making out" kinda way...

Some guys might not be able to read that very well... Some guys might just ignore the differences. Usually it ends with a ***** slap in some guys face but I wouldn't rule out a girl yelling "RAPE!!!" after he tried to kiss her...

Anyway 99% of the times a rape is a rape! It's wrong, and hang the guy! But in some cases the guy isn't the only one that was wrong. Specially (IMHO) if both were heavily intoxicated and the "rape" was just some random drunk-funk... There's is NEVER a clear black/white border in no issue. The line might be very thin but it ALWAYS has some shades of gray. And I think everyone is responsible for protecting themselves... If I get mugged the burglar isn't innocent and it wasn't "my fault" but probably if I exercised some discretion I wouldn't get mugged. You have the right to dress or act as you wish but you also have to exercise good judgment on all of your actions. If you're not willing to do that maybe you should move to a religious-extremist community where there's a strict dress code and rape victims are few... Like the Americans love to say... "Freedom isn't free". The price for not living in a police state and in a country where women have liberty to dress/act/think as they place is sometimes bad things happening to good people. The more you use your good judgment the less likely you are for being a victim. There's a Portuguese saying that goes a little like this: "If you walk on the rain you're bound to get wet".

On a last note: I *DO* KNOW THERE ARE TONS (99.9999999999%) OF RAPE VICTIMS WHO ARE SWEET AND INNOCENT GIRLS/BOYS/WOMEN/MAN WHICH DID NOTHING TO MOTIVATE THE HORRIBLE ORDEAL THEY WERE SUBJECTED TO!! This post obviously doesn't refer to them so please don't flame me on that particular regard.

Also, I would love if someone could answer this: If you rape a prostitute would it be sexual assault or burglary?

 

[Colin Bagley]

I think it is extremely sad that some people are defending these monsters. Statistics can go to hell. Rape is worse than murder because you live with that horror and it affects your normal everyday life. When you're dead you're dead - you're not haunted and suspicious.

Murder is obviously worse than rape.
A rape victim can still enjoy their favourite foods, listen to their favourite music, spend time with friends and family...

If Murder isn't so bad, because the victim no longer suffers, then you'd think that a Rapist who also kills the victim should get a lighter sentence, for ending the suffering, despite having committed an additional, worse, crime?

And that's saying nothing of the impact on the family.

 

[chadachada123]

Your 'observations' are claims that still need evidence.

No they don't. They don't need evidence anymore than the claim that "people that dress like thugs are disliked by much of society." It may not be true in your area, but it is in mine, and there is no way I could satisfy your INSANE burden of proof without personally interviewing every single person in my community.

Look, clearly you disagree. That you disagree with how society views male victims is depressing, but acceptable. Where I come from though, it's a serious issue. That you don't have it or don't recognize it in your area can be either good or bad, but is not something I'm making any claims about.

However, that you disagree on the standard of proof for A BASIC FREAKING OBSERVATION OF SOCIETY is insane, and I can't help with that. It's a required function to be able to observe what is a social norm and how society generally reacts to accusations. It's part of being human.

I doubt many people have taken note of how society treats mothers accused of harming their children, or men accused of not paying child support, but it's SERIOUSLY FUCKING OBVIOUS what society would say. At least my own society, which may or may not be different from yours.

The correct way to handle this is to say "man, it sounds like it sucks in your area, or doesn't get as much coverage in my area," not to say "NO YOU NEED EVIDENCE TO MAKE ANY CLAIM WHATSOEVER, YOU'RE ACTING LIKE YOUR WORDS HAVE 100% TRUTH etc etc."

Just...let it go, dude.

 

[Signa]

On the whole, I agree with you OP, but there are some mitigating factors that I refuse to ignore.

1) Men, when sexually aroused, aren't able to think logically, and are looking for instant gratification. There was a study done a while ago where men were exposed to arousing images, and then offered $20 after the test, or $50 6 months later. Compared to the group who were shown normal pictures or trees and nature or some shit, they chose the $20 now instead of the $50 later. As humans, we need to control our needs, because we are above the animals that way. But I'm not going to ignore that we are still animals in a sense, and these things happen as a result of something we all can't fight. Does that really relieve a rapist of responsibility? Absolutely not, but it does change things a tiny bit, depending on the circumstances. This doesn't apply to a serial rapist one bit, but I can at least sympathize with someone having a moment of weakness. It is after all what we men are told to do when a woman's sexual hormones are causing lapses in justifiable behavior.

2) A woman dressing provocatively is sending a message, and a very shallow and stupid one. It says "look at me!" while assuming the part of "but don't touch" is a given because of laws. There isn't some medical condition that makes girls need to dress to arouse men. They want the attention, and pretending they didn't doesn't change the fact that they were doing something kinda shallow. Now, in a perfect world, girls should be able to dress the way they want and suffer no ill effects for it, but trusting everyone around them isn't a luxury anyone who takes a moment to think about it will afford. It's like poking a bear as far as I'm concerned. You'd hope that the bear doesn't do anything about a measly poke, but if it does, people are going to ask why did you feel you had to poke it?

All that said, I'm far removed from the mind of a rapist, so I don't know how accurate these angles are, but I can't help but feel that rapists would just go around raping anything female if there wasn't something that the girls did to single themselves out as "rapable." And I don't think anyone just becomes a rapist on a whim. There has to be times leading up to rape for that man to say "I need help, because I can't control myself." If you're that guy, don't wait, because it's not just your life you're going to ruin if you take the wrong action.

EDIT:

Your 'observations' are claims that still need evidence.

No they don't. They don't need evidence anymore than the claim that "people that dress like thugs are disliked by much of society." It may not be true in your area, but it is in mine, and there is no way I could satisfy your INSANE burden of proof without personally interviewing every single person in my community.

Look, clearly you disagree. That you disagree with how society views male victims is depressing, but acceptable. Where I come from though, it's a serious issue. That you don't have it or don't recognize it in your area can be either good or bad, but is not something I'm making any claims about.

However, that you disagree on the standard of proof for A BASIC FREAKING OBSERVATION OF SOCIETY is insane, and I can't help with that. It's a required function to be able to observe what is a social norm and how society generally reacts to accusations. It's part of being human.

I doubt many people have taken note of how society treats mothers accused of harming their children, or men accused of not paying child support, but it's SERIOUSLY FUCKING OBVIOUS what society would say. At least my own society, which may or may not be different from yours.

The correct way to handle this is to say "man, it sounds like it sucks in your area, or doesn't get as much coverage in my area," not to say "NO YOU NEED EVIDENCE TO MAKE ANY CLAIM WHATSOEVER, YOU'RE ACTING LIKE YOUR WORDS HAVE 100% TRUTH etc etc."

Just...let it go, dude.

Ignore her on those claims. I said that 9/10 women in my area are undatable, and she jumped down my throat calling me a woman hater. After that conversation, I conferred with my brother on that estimate, and he agreed. He said the women around here are extremely selfish and unwilling to have a healthy relationship if they aren't completely in control of their partner's actions. But Ms. Gravesend here doesn't agree because the girls around her are fine.