Zero Punctuation: Beyond: Two Souls

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

-snip-

That is kinda the thing, what Cage is doing isn't new, it's just more stuck-up. He's doing nothing more than making visual novels or adventure games but on an inflated budget. And there are COUNTLESS titles in those genres I'd recommend before his stuff. Katawa Shoujo, Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward, Ace Attorney, Monkey Island, The Walking Dead, The Wolf Among Us, Sam and Max, Gabriel Knight, Broken Sword, Hotel Dusk, Back to the Future, Beneath a Steel Sky, The Book of Unwritten Tales, Full Throttle, Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones, Zack and Wiki etc. Those games have FAR better characters and writing, so I just don't get this obsession so many journalists have with Cage. That's before getting into games in other GENRES that are far more competent at telling stories. Though I guess I can't STAY mad; more than likely his 15 minutes are up so he'll be doomed to obscurity just like all the other one-hit wonders who have plagued games in the past thirty years.

 

[Cybylt]

Infinity Ward making VOTOMS.

Wait, what? Where did that come from? I'm genuinely curious, really. (Unless you mean Titanfall, in which case I just got confused because I took the statement literally and apologize in advance.)

I just call Titanfall VOTOMS, because it kind of is.

Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters". You can totally tell by the character design of Ace Attorney that it's super realistic:

http://g3ar.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/PhoenixWrightMovie-G3AR.jpg


Such stunning realism. These are all real people we can all relate to. You're right; they're so much more believable than the characters of B:TS.

You can say you enjoy the plot of Ace Attorney more. You CAN'T say the Ace Attorney characters are more believable.... please.



On an unrelated note, it's funny to notice that while Americans keep hating on this game, Italian websites keep loving it:

http://multiplayer.it/notizie/124772-beyond-due-anime-beyond-due-anime-e-il-giudizio-del-popolo.html

To the point of making fun of all the haters.

I can't help but find this incredibly hypocritical. As well as incredibly dickish. You posit that people dislike it purely from a gameplay point of view and when someone comes along saying that they find the story and characterization lacking and show something they feel is better at it, your response it "BUT MUH GRAPHICS." You ignore and bash them in the same way you claim so many do for this game. You may as well be saying Jim's rather famous line, though without any hint of sarcasm or humor, "Polygons IS Emotions."

Graphical fidelity doesn't make the characters instantly more real or believable, in fact it only serves to highlight every mistake in action and emotion. Probably why there's little to no room for subtle expression in Quantum's games.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well, I'll give David Cage this: He's making a fine case for why "interactive movie experiences" aren't really games.
Suck out the gameplay from a "game", focus on the "cinematic" elements, and you're left with a shitty choose your own adventure book...with graphics...and no real choices.

 

[Saika Renegade]

-snip-

That is kinda the thing, what Cage is doing isn't new, it's just more stuck-up. He's doing nothing more than making visual novels or adventure games but on an inflated budget. And there are COUNTLESS titles in those genres I'd recommend before his stuff. Katawa Shoujo, Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward, Ace Attorney, Monkey Island, The Walking Dead, The Wolf Among Us, Sam and Max, Gabriel Knight, Broken Sword, Hotel Dusk, Back to the Future, Beneath a Steel Sky, The Book of Unwritten Tales, Full Throttle, Day of the Tentacle, Indiana Jones, Zack and Wiki etc. Those games have FAR better characters and writing, so I just don't get this obsession so many journalists have with Cage. That's before getting into games in other GENRES that are far more competent at telling stories. Though I guess I can't STAY mad; more than likely his 15 minutes are up so he'll be doomed to obscurity just like all the other one-hit wonders who have plagued games in the past thirty years.

Basically that's the core of the issue for me. I'll admit that I'm no journalist, nor am I specifically focused on Cage for any reason, even for his attitude (maybe it could do with improvement as well, but couldn't we all). I don't even necessarily ask that he do something novel each time--several games have shown that you can take their basic tropes and play with them intelligently while still using them outright (for instance, Bowser's Inside Story toys with the notion of the pure hero-versus-villain fantasy while still being a fantastical setting with a pure hero and obvious villain). I genuinely feel that Cage could actually have made something like BTS a much more engaging experience if he would sit down and find a way to evolve his writing beyond what it has been for his last couple of games. The man writes a good emotional grip (the finger scene in Heavy Rain was a hell of a thing), but I would like to see his writing breadth and its quality both grow, same as I would with any writer who uses only one or two of the tools in their literary kit.

I'm more irked that people seem to think that criticism of a subject automatically equates to hatred, anger, or wishing to see the subject of criticism wither and fail. I'm of the opinion that criticism is something for the subject's use, to better understand and -improve- their work, since I wouldn't mind seeing another strong narrative based experience with greater depth to it. If Cage can deliver it, I'll give his next effort a look and give writing credit where credit is due if he manages it. Until then, best to note the pitfalls so that more narratives don't end up suffering the same issues.

I just call Titanfall VOTOMS, because it kind of is.

Right, got it. I had a moment of hope there as a fan of twenty-year-old robot anime, and the heavily realistic sort besides. Titanfall looks interesting, though it does have a few more fantastical elements. Not complaining though, I've been hoping for some good on-the-ground robots and infantry fun--time to wait and see, I suppose. While I might have liked to have seen a campaign somewhere in there, I know that wasn't their target gameplay experience and don't begrudge them for it. A man can dream, after all.

 

[klaynexas3]

It wasn't that bad at first, but then it got to the birthday party and I just had to roll my eyes because of how stupid it was. Kids can be horrible little monsters yeah, but that was just silly. "Show us your super murder ghost powers!" followed shortly by "A book!? BUUUURN HEEEEER!".

I've seen kids get stabbed for less than that at my high school(one kid got stabbed in the lung because he put a poptart on another kid's head), and I've seen kids get just the regular bully treatment(basically what Ellen got) for even less. It definitely could have been shown in a better way, but teenagers are horrible people.

 

[Syzygy23]

Well, I'll give David Cage this: He's making a fine case for why "interactive movie experiences" aren't really games.
Suck out the gameplay from a "game", focus on the "cinematic" elements, and you're left with a shitty choose your own adventure book...with graphics...and no real choices.

This, right here. Listen to this man and/or woman! This is exaclty what is wrong with David Cage's design philosophy.

 

[Cybylt]

Excuse me, but where and when did I ever make a graphic comparison?

Heck, I've even decided to pick up an image from the Ace Attorney live action movie precisely to avoid any graphic comparison.

This is what is fun about the internet; everyone doesn't listen to what the other says but just interprets what they want to interpret.

"Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters"."

and

"Such stunning realism."

I'm sorry if I misunderstood but saying that heavily implies that the characters are unbelievable simply because of the aesthetic.

I may have jumped at it a bit too, but it is no less hyperbolic than your "If you don't like Beyond it's because you don't like stories and only want shooters and guys with shaved heads," argument. An argument you continued to use even when people were criticizing the story elements and using games they feel have better story focused play than Beyond as examples.

 

[ERaptor]

My first impression of David comes from Two best Friends' Playtrough of Heavy Rain and more importantly Indigo Prophecy. I played it myself afterwards because the game has really interesting concepts in the beginning. Its hillariously bad afterwards, the Story goes completely apesh*t. Heavy Rain was a bit less whacko, but had too much needless plot elements, strange scenes and _horrible_ characters. The guy also tends to overdo it in terms of hype and marketing his games. I find the Molyneux comparison really fitting.

Now, BTS isnt offensively bad to me. The Story is again so ridicolous that i will watch LP's purely to laugh at it. But the Game, much like stuff from Telltale, fall into a niche i cant really get into. I never buy Telltale stuff, i watch it. Its exactly the same with stuff from David Cage (Altough i watch Telltale because the Story is fantastic, and Cage because its hillariously over the top and from time to time outright retarded.). They arent games in my book, they are Movies where im required to press a button from time to time to go either left or right.

So yeah, i would be lying if i said Cage dropping out of the industry would have me weeping. On the other hand, if people like it, let them like it. At least he thinks outside of the Box gameplaywise and offers material i can get a good laugh out off. Besides, the niche isnt big enough that it influences anything, noone takes Games with actual _Gameplay_ away from you just because Cage wants to write "Videogame" on the backside of his interactive movie.

 

[00slash00]

Well I liked it. I liked all of David Cages games.

Here here! I finished it last night and absolutely loved it, as I've loved every David Cage game I've ever played. I will defend his games to the death

 

[Baddamobs]

Excuse me, but where and when did I ever make a graphic comparison?

Heck, I've even decided to pick up an image from the Ace Attorney live action movie precisely to avoid any graphic comparison.

This is what is fun about the internet; everyone doesn't listen to what the other says but just interprets what they want to interpret.

"Oh dear me, an anime cartoon thing now has "believable characters"."

and

"Such stunning realism."

I'm sorry if I misunderstood but saying that heavily implies that the characters are unbelievable simply because of the aesthetic.

Both of my comments there weren't referring to the aestethics. Unless by aestethic you only intended the crazy dumb anime hair and clothing, in that cases, visuals were definitely a part of what I meant.

Definitely not even the slightest concern about pixel count.

Err, may I raise another objection? (Hahaha, sorry, I couldn't resist.)But I have to say, liking/preferring whether a character was designed with a western 'realist' or an eastern 'anime' style, I find at least, has very little to do whether a character is believable or not. I, personally, find myself relating with characters that have less realistic designs just as well, if not BETTER, then some of the 'real' characters out there. For example, Naruto: what the HELL are those damned lines on his face? And Sakura has freakin' PINK hair! But I find that can be just as relatable as, say, Lee from the Walking Dead.
Not sure if that's a side effect of some of the more uncanny valley characters out there or just a preference...

 

[Baddamobs]

My first impression of David comes from Two best Friends' Playtrough of Heavy Rain and more importantly Indigo Prophecy. I played it myself afterwards because the game has really interesting concepts in the beginning. Its hillariously bad afterwards, the Story goes completely apesh*t. Heavy Rain was a bit less whacko, but had too much needless plot elements, strange scenes and _horrible_ characters. The guy also tends to overdo it in terms of hype and marketing his games. I find the Molyneux comparison really fitting.

Now, BTS isnt offensively bad to me. The Story is again so ridicolous that i will watch LP's purely to laugh at it. But the Game, much like stuff from Telltale, fall into a niche i cant really get into. I never buy Telltale stuff, i watch it. Its exactly the same with stuff from David Cage (Altough i watch Telltale because the Story is fantastic, and Cage because its hillariously over the top and from time to time outright retarded.). They arent games in my book, they are Movies where im required to press a button from time to time to go either left or right.

So yeah, i would be lying if i said Cage dropping out of the industry would have me weeping. On the other hand, if people like it, let them like it. At least he thinks outside of the Box gameplaywise and offers material i can get a good laugh out off. Besides, the niche isnt big enough that it influences anything, noone takes Games with actual _Gameplay_ away from you just because Cage wants to write "Videogame" on the backside of his interactive movie.

People, people, gather around and listen to the voice of reason in this thread!!

Just replying that this is pretty much my stance on this whole affair: I can sort of get why some people would like this kind of game, though just barely. I myself would never rush out to get a game that doesn't really have an amazing amount of gameplay in it, like the games David Cage makes, though I respect the man for at least doing what he wants to do in an industry that seems determined to do nothing but appeal to the lowest common denominator (praise be to the almighty From Software for trying to change that).

Basically: if you honestly like these kind of games, nothing from stopping you from playing them, but if you have criticisms against the game (and you happen to be Matt and Pat), then by all means, fire away.

 

[EvilRoy]

Seems to me all the hate comes from not understanding that this game was always designed to be a visual novel. The game's got QTE gameplay not because it's a failure: but because it was intended to work like this.
Nobody complains that Japanese visual novels mostly consist of pressing a button and reading text on a screen. And yet, there's a bazillion visual novels that keep being made.

Understand this: B:TS is not meant as a gameplay challenge. Just like certain videogames only ever focus on gameplay and don't have any plot at all, B:TS does the exact opposite. Is a videogame not a videogame if it only has gameplay? And is a videogame not a videogame if it only has story?

So, stuff like B:TS that only ever focuses on telling a story is not your thing. That's fine. You don't have to like it. You think a videogame must have gameplay. It's fine, and a perfectly reasonable opinion.

But hating on the game and spitting out insults like "I don't want to see any other game like this / Cage shouldn't ever be allowed to make videogames" is disrespectful of anyone who knows exactly what B:TS was meant to be (a story - a visual novel with a high budget), and likes it this way.
It's not like the market is full of these things. We get one of those every two years. Can I enjoy those, or does it bother you so much?

That's all fair enough, but it does pretty clearly show that the ads and demo you saw were pretty seriously different from the ones I saw. In the promotional stuff I saw there was absolutely no indication, implication, or otherwise that would have lead me to believe that this was supposed to be a QTE visual novel. The demo may have been plodding at the start, but you were blowing things up before it was over.

If they didn't want to be criticized for their 'visual novel' style gameplay, they shouldn't have tried to sell it as an action adventure game.

 

[Darken12]

The mild interest I had to see these so-called hunky boys is buried under several kilometres of "NOPE" towards the gameplay and storytelling.

 

[MaddKossack115]

Well "Beyond: Two Souls" is definitely going to be one of those "love it or hate it" kind of games, and based on Yahtzee's description, I'd probably be one of the guys who would end up hating it. And what kills me is that, not only did the gameplay have potential beyond QTEs for everything but a tutorial and a level shot for "gameplay trailers", but also that the story had potential for an interesting narrative around Jodie Holmes (Ellen Page's character, who does a good job of an admittedly type-casted roll) and her coming to grips with her powers (think of it as "Carrie - The Game").

The reason I mention this is that, as Yahtzee pointed out, the story is a mish-mash of scenes that look ripped out of completely different movies, with the arch-villain of the whole mess being the especially incongruous "CIA jackals". Look Cage, I know America's foreign policy of "Democratize or We'll Shoot You" isn't the most endearing in the world, and rightly should be criticized in a medium where the blockbuster, Triple-A "spunkgargleweewee" FPSs support this cock-and-bull "Shock And Awe" shtick hook, line and sinker, but it should NOT be in a game that's trying to be a somewhat serious Urban Fantasy story of a girl struggling with a Lovecraftian imaginary friend.

At the very least, the CIA shouldn't be so fucking clueless that they honestly expect mistreating and abusing people with supernatural superpowers wouldn't end with the "subjects" using their powers to tear themselves out of their prisons, or that they would have better motivations for trying to awaken Eldritch Abominations that have the potential to wipe the whole world out beyond "We do this for 'MURICA! FUCK YEAH!!! (Except without a single trace of irony in their jingoistic machismo)"

 

[Bat Vader]

I'll just say that all the hate you Americans have towards Beyond is disheartening.

Because I really like Beyond: Two Souls.

And you know what's really sad? If a fps or a third person shooter or even a fighting game is released, and it turns out it doesn't sell enough, well that's a disappointment, but it doesn't matter in the end. Even if that software house won't make any more games, well, there's plenty of other software houses making fps or tps or fighters!

Now, if Quantic Dream doesn't sell enough, I won't be able to play any more games like Beyond: Two Souls or Heavy Rain. Because only Quantic Dream ever makes those. In all my life, I've played only TWO videogames of that specific kind, both made by those developers.

So, f**k you, 'Murican haters. F**k you all.

I'm an American and I like Beyond: Two Souls. I am pretty sure there are other people in the world that hate or dislike Beyond: Two Souls besides Americans.