Pleasantly surprised that this video happened at all, I was already happy that hebpraised the game on a recent Let's Drown Out... video, but this was just the icing on the cake~
Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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For a long time I contemplated trying to email yahtzee (or some other contact method) just to say that, no matter how much anyone pressures you for it, do NOT review Dark Souls without finishing it first. That's basically what he did with his Demon's souls review, got about half way through 1-2 and gave up at the first metaphorical wall. Well what do you know, he finally breaks through that first wall and the game clicks. Maybe he should go back and try Demon's Souls again now that he finally gets it, not that I expect another review.
Yeah but I'm fairly sure you can't quit in the middle of combat. Or you can but you'll just get killed. If you're in a safe spot then it doesn't matter anyway as you can just stand there, do whatever it is you need to do IRL and come back.michael87cn said:
Yeah it's pretty stupid. That and the inventory management is clunkly as fuck, the UI in general is clunky to be honest. No comparison with equipped items in shops, dropping an item takes way too long, you can't tell what you're picking up before you do so, bottomless box is awkward. I mean I know you can quit out and not lose anything, but that's just tedious, I understand the choice of it not pausing when you go in your inventory, and I'm good with that, that's a concious design choice to help with the immersion but have a dedicated pause button at the very least, don't let the player do anything in there, but at least have it.chiggerwood said:
Oh stop being so obtuse. I like Dark Souls, in fact I'd say I love it, but you just sound like a complete ass. "Oh you don't know enough about the game, because you want a pause button, sneer sneer, look how shit you are" If you're never told this information in game, how are you supposed to find out about it other than sheer luck? And no, outside information doesn't count, it should all be there in the game, even if it's just a hint from an NPC that sounds correct in universe, you can't have your game rely on Wikis to function. Furthermore, while I don't mind the online stuff, it's not entirely optional, you'll need it if you want to summon npc helpers or fight Thorn Knight Kirk, who's guitly of Guide Dang It all on his own.Madmanonfire said:
Dude not being able to find the undead Burg, okay pretty silly on his part, but modern gamers are a bit soft with the constant arrows pointing them in the right direction. You'd be surprised how much of a skill being able to recognize sutble hints to the direction you're supposed to be going is(apparently). A lot of my casual gamer friends can't even pick up on the fact that in Tomb Raider games, all the ledges you can grab on to are a shade of white, hence the path to go is pretty fucking obvious.
Every game has a pause button. Every fucking game! The fact is, is that having to die or quit out of the fucking game in order to pause it is clunky and unncessary. If you look up you'll see my thoughts on the issue, but I felt the quote you
Furthermore the tutorial level isn't very good. I didn't struggle with it by any means, but to say it gave you any indication about anything useful beyond the controls is a flat out lie. I'm all for learning by doing, but you are told absoloutely fucking nothing about the game mechanics beyond your own trial and error. Trial and Error for how game mechanics work is just bad funnelling of information to the player.
Humanity, pretty important, but are you told this? No. You /may/ hapeen to notice that your loot find rate has increased with more Humanity, but that'd be pretty lucky, as I doubt you'll be looking at it. There's other stuff too, and I had to read a good few wikis in order to learn most of the game mechanics. That is not good design.
I'm forced to add my own voice to those of the people who didn't realise they had to go up the stairs from the Firelink Shrine at first, but then, my inital reaction wasn't 'ooh, where do I go next?' but rather' ooh, building, let's explore it!'. I ended up on a small cliff with 4 chests, and the only exit I could see opened out right above the skeleton enemies. After that I did go up the stairs, and this is the embarrassing part. I fought may way up there, stodd there, right next to the aqueduct entrance, and just straight up didn't notice it! I thought it was a dead end. Cue half an hour of trying to fight the skeletons, when i eventually look online and find out I was supposed to go up after all -_-
Also, having to talk to people more than once for anything useful keeps catching me out. I've never spoken to the NPC by the bonfire in Firelink more than once, so I missed that hint entirely. The priest there who lets you join a Covenant caught me out as well. I was wondering why everyone said you could join one by talking to him, when both times I'd spoken to him (2 different characters, I restarted fairly early after wasting my entire inventory of my first character on those darn skellies) he told me to go away.
Now I'm getting into the game (just beaten those gargoyles, albeit with Solaire), I've got to agree it's pretty fun. The control scheme took some getting used to, and not being able to cancel attacks to roll out of the way keeps catching me out (I'm still not used to an XBox controller, why is the D-Pad where the left analogue stick should be?
), but now I'm getting a grasp on it, I;m enjoying it more
Also, having to talk to people more than once for anything useful keeps catching me out. I've never spoken to the NPC by the bonfire in Firelink more than once, so I missed that hint entirely. The priest there who lets you join a Covenant caught me out as well. I was wondering why everyone said you could join one by talking to him, when both times I'd spoken to him (2 different characters, I restarted fairly early after wasting my entire inventory of my first character on those darn skellies) he told me to go away.
Now I'm getting into the game (just beaten those gargoyles, albeit with Solaire), I've got to agree it's pretty fun. The control scheme took some getting used to, and not being able to cancel attacks to roll out of the way keeps catching me out (I'm still not used to an XBox controller, why is the D-Pad where the left analogue stick should be?
), but now I'm getting a grasp on it, I;m enjoying it more 
There's nothing wrong with beating the encounters, particularly on your first run, with Solaire. It actually increases enemy health by 50%, so, while you're getting boosted, so is your enemy. Never really a problem on NG, but if you take help into some of the NG+ enemies, it can really hurt you (4 Kings is bad NG+ unless your DPS is really strong).
Hell, I take Solaire with me to the last boss almost every time. I hate trying to simply pro-parry him down and, if you don't, he becomes a rather annoying and cheap fight. I should start a thread to talk about the difference between really excellently balanced enemies (Artorius, Manus, Quelaag) and enemies that are either cheap (Gwyn, non you parrying everything edition), broken (Bed of Chaos, duh), or just missed brilliance because of some bad design choice (no hit collision detection/friendly blocking between Ornstein and Smough, meaning Ornstein will constantly hit you THROUGH Smough, which is lame).
Also, the ability to not simply cancel out of an animation into a roll is actually a good thing, in my opinion. I think the instant "get out of jail" card in a lot of modern brawlers and action games really acts more as a detriment to the game. You never have to really understand your animation and commit to your attack, so there's very little strategy other than [mash mash mash DODGE! mash mash mash DODGE]. With DS you need to understand the enemy's openings and manage your animation timing and endurance. It's more strategic.
Hell, I take Solaire with me to the last boss almost every time. I hate trying to simply pro-parry him down and, if you don't, he becomes a rather annoying and cheap fight. I should start a thread to talk about the difference between really excellently balanced enemies (Artorius, Manus, Quelaag) and enemies that are either cheap (Gwyn, non you parrying everything edition), broken (Bed of Chaos, duh), or just missed brilliance because of some bad design choice (no hit collision detection/friendly blocking between Ornstein and Smough, meaning Ornstein will constantly hit you THROUGH Smough, which is lame).
Also, the ability to not simply cancel out of an animation into a roll is actually a good thing, in my opinion. I think the instant "get out of jail" card in a lot of modern brawlers and action games really acts more as a detriment to the game. You never have to really understand your animation and commit to your attack, so there's very little strategy other than [mash mash mash DODGE! mash mash mash DODGE]. With DS you need to understand the enemy's openings and manage your animation timing and endurance. It's more strategic.
If it makes you feel any better, I fully admit to viewing fans of this game as lesser people in my eyes.MrHide-Patten said:As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.
Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.
I hate this game so much, it's made me a fan hater, the very thing I tried to avoid being.
But it is a good pain.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/8649-Joy-Begets-AngerMachine Man 1992 said:If it makes you feel any better, I fully admit to viewing fans of this game as lesser people in my eyes.MrHide-Patten said:As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.
Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.
I hate this game so much, it's made me a fan hater, the very thing I tried to avoid being.
But it is a good pain.
Based on what you just said, I think it fits you just right.
I just know that I will never be good enough at games to enjoy Dark Souls. I am also totally okay with this. The game looks pretty and seems neat (which automatically gives it at least 2/5 on my "will I play it?" scale) but I feel like the frustration of this game would likely just drive me insane.
Thus, I will avoid it, even though I suspect it is fun. One rake-face would likely be enough for a good controller spike. This would mean that I had no controllers left.
Thus, i will avoid. I certainly congratulate others who are more mature than me in the face of game-adversity!
Thus, I will avoid it, even though I suspect it is fun. One rake-face would likely be enough for a good controller spike. This would mean that I had no controllers left.
Thus, i will avoid. I certainly congratulate others who are more mature than me in the face of game-adversity!
I'm am SO on the edge of getting this game. I've put it off for years now, scared of the difficulty and obtuse mechanics.
Someone care to convince me? Or shall I forever be doomed to look longingly into the void of darkness, never able to muster the courage or fortitude to venture beyond the veil and risk my health and sanity for the greater good?
Someone care to convince me? Or shall I forever be doomed to look longingly into the void of darkness, never able to muster the courage or fortitude to venture beyond the veil and risk my health and sanity for the greater good?
Doesn't this game share all of the gripes Yahtzee had with Demon's Souls? (steep difficulty, dead/undead dichotomy, lack of pause, internet post-it notes etc...) it's even by the same developer, so how come Yahtzee loves this game for the same reason he hated the other? and if Yahtzee is now accustomed to the difficulty does that mean he'll give the other one another try?
I bought it on a steam sale for like 10 bucks if I remember, and I don't regret it. Normally I'm not one for very difficult games - hence waiting for a low price - but I found with this one a simple willingness to use a spoiler-free wiki or faq to get the basics down is enough to get you past the wall Yahtzee mentioned.Trishbot said:
The major issues are really just those of mechanics and approach. The game itself is pretty opaque about how invasions, kindling, hollowing/unhollowing, summoning NPCs/Co-op Players and status effects work, but a brief read of the basics from a faq and some previous knowledge from games in general is usually enough. My primary stumbling block in the game was that they never explicitly tell you what your stats will do for you in the long run - resulting in a few wasted hours as I realised I had made a build so bad the difficulty was artificially inflating. Boning up on what stats are good and what are useless is a really good thing to look at before starting. Personally I suggest looking at a couple spoiler free skill point builds just to get an idea of what kind of fighter uses which points.
So long as you keep in mind that a boss you can't beat in say two or three tries likely has an alternate approach or a weakness you don't know about, the game difficulty is actually pretty reasonable - given the aforementioned requisite knowledge. And as Yahtzee mentioned, if a boss really is too much to take then the best option is to just leave for another area and come back.
If you need convincing from a gameplay perspective, I can say that the levels are typically beautiful barring a single brief area that is ugly as hell. The pallets used vary greatly, though they tend to lead logically from one area to the next - so no worries about getting stuck in a grey brown colourscape for the duration of the game. The boss music is pretty fantastic and typically matches the feel of the fights very well. In some cases despite certain bosses taking me to school I still found their design and music so enjoyable I didn't really feel frustration until the fourth or fifth death - both the woods and anor londo area bosses had this effect on me.
Even the areas that are completely optional (there are at least three maybe more that I can think of off the top of my head) are well made for unique gameplay and beautiful design despite being completely miss-able and wholly unnecessary to beating the game.
Co-op/multiplay is interestingly implimented - although somewhat rife with smartass comments (the red messages on the ground Yahtzee mentioned). It can generally be very helpful to play online, and luckily now that the game is a bit older the incidence of ganking seems to be very low compared to what I saw people noting when the game was released. The hints can get you through the odd bits, and the summons can save you from too many replays of a given boss.
I guess my ultimate opinion of the game is that despite its opacity and - in some sections - near unfair difficulty, it is so well made that it is hard to really complain about it. Except for the Havok physics, but that's pretty much just hilarious.
And I fully own that, because the fact that people actually like this game is so antithetical to everything I thought I knew about the world, that I can't not hate it.Setch Dreskar said:http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/8649-Joy-Begets-AngerMachine Man 1992 said:If it makes you feel any better, I fully admit to viewing fans of this game as lesser people in my eyes.MrHide-Patten said:As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.
Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.
I hate this game so much, it's made me a fan hater, the very thing I tried to avoid being.
But it is a good pain.
Based on what you just said, I think it fits you just right.
Plus most of the fans are the kind of smug douchebags that make me wonder just how bad prison is, because a stay in the Big House would be worth shutting them up permanently. (an exaggeration, obviously)
But that is niether here nor there. I'm gonna slam me a six pack, put on some Three Dog Night, and try to forget this game even exists
Look guys, let's all be really honest with ourselves here. I loved Demon's Souls but Demon's Souls and Dark Souls have some VERY significant differences with Dark Souls being the more intuitive and accessible of the two by a very long shot.Sotanaht said:
1) Progression: Demon's Souls has a weird progression of 5 disconnected worlds. Intuition says go from your starting location in Boletaria, world "1-1" directly into "1-2." I'm sure a lot of us did this, and got facerolled by the dragon, then the archers/knights, the dogs, and then Tower Knight. It was frustrating as hell, and that's where Yahtzee quit. It is not intuitive to complete 1-1 and then know that the smart thing is to go to 2-1, and then maybe 4-1, then maybe try 2-2 or 3-1. It's all a bit of "test the waters" and decide with each location whether you are ready for it. While that's not a BAD thing, per se, it's not intuitive by any means, and can lead to frustration.
2) Difficulty: Demon's Souls was harder. Dark Souls has some really fun, challenging sections, but it is also a lot more progressive in regards to it's difficulty. A lot of the harder enemies you meet early can be completely bypassed. Black Knights, Havel, several of the Baldur Knights, the Berenike Knights, Hellkite; many of these are optional (some more than others) in the early game. However, I remember having to face down a lot of the nastier knights, the Fat Officials, those godawful Illithid/Mindflayer bastards in Latria, without much option to simply bypass. Also, while many of the Dark Souls bosses were challenging, I think the Demon's Souls ones, for the most part, were a bit more so. Flamelurker (until I just rolled around naked shooting him with homing soul arrows) and Maneater are, frankly, harder than anything I faced in Dark Souls. O&S is only really tough because they don't hit or collision detect each other properly. Bed of Chaos isn't hard... it's broken.
3) Punishment: Demon's Souls punishes the player a lot more. Half your health for soul mode? That's way worse than just being "hollowed." Soul level loss to various possible factors? Brutal. Every time you die (can't remember if you had to be in human form or not, I think you did...) you push the world tendency towards black, making the place more difficult? Pretty rough.
4) Obscurity: A lot of the reason that many Dark Souls players were comfortable with the attributes is because they were already fully aware of the way they worked from Demon's Souls. Show of hands, how many people started a Knight in Demon's Souls and then later discovered fastrolling when they took off their armor? I was one of the ones who did this and then realized "well crap, this makes things a lot easier." The Demon's Souls community fed information into the Dark Souls community, making the world of Dark Souls feel less obtuse/obscure, but in Demon's Souls, that information was less immediately available to the populace at large.
Don't get me wrong, I adore Demon's Souls, but I do think that expecting someone to like Demon's Souls purely based on whether they liked Dark Souls is a bit premature. I think there is a high likelihood, but we tend to brush over a lot of the improvements to intuitiveness and accessibility that went into Dark Souls, which Demon's Souls lacked.
I beat Ornstein and Smough on my first try. Ahahahahahaaaaaa. *smug* *smug*
Seriously though it's a real fun game.
I didn't find it or Demon's Souls that obtuse. Some people make it sound like you're dropped in a pitch black environment (heh) and then vaguely implied to go northwest without a compass.
I'm exaggerating but it does feel like they seemed to miss quite a lot of things it seems they shouldn't have.
But I do agree that it wouldn't dramatically hurt the game or anything if it had a little bit more direction at a few points and with some of it's systems.
It definitely is not for everyone, but it definitely is for me.
Seriously though it's a real fun game.
I didn't find it or Demon's Souls that obtuse. Some people make it sound like you're dropped in a pitch black environment (heh) and then vaguely implied to go northwest without a compass.
I'm exaggerating but it does feel like they seemed to miss quite a lot of things it seems they shouldn't have.
But I do agree that it wouldn't dramatically hurt the game or anything if it had a little bit more direction at a few points and with some of it's systems.
It definitely is not for everyone, but it definitely is for me.