Zero Punctuation: DC Universe Online
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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Yeah. Also, a nice touch when ANALOGY was falling apart, but ANAL still held up.sshplur said:
Also, District of Columbia Universe Online?
Yahtzee Croshaw, you, sir, have given me the desire to call this game
"One of the Guys From Tag Team a.k.a. the 'Whoomp! There It Is' Guys Universe Online".
Lol yeah... CoH started off with a great narrative, in that it was very comic-like and worked, but it kind of got lost in its own world after a little while. What I noticed in DCUO, on the other hand, is that there seem to be running storylines that one would expect to see more of in future updates, which is kind of cool.Void(null) said:
And don't get me wrong. I love CoH. It wasn't just my first MMO, but also the only MMO I've been going back to for the last five years. But even so, the only things I ever did was clear dungeons and occasionally team up. I never found out what salvages are even supposed to do, never joined a super-group, never did anything than go somewhere and kill something. And I never capped a character, because by the time I'd reach level 40, I was bored and just made new ones.
People like me are the audience that DCUO can draw in, because of its simplicity and immediacy. It's not really that close to a traditional MMO... it's more akin to a 3rd person action game with a partying mechanic.
Lol wat? CoH copy? What game out there is truely original, in your opinion? I guarantee you someone can come along and say "oh that x game borrowed elements from y game.". It's a Superhero MMo, OF COURSE it's going to be reminiscent of CoH. There arent that many other Superhero MMo games OUT there.Headbiter said:
But even thats incorrect, it more closely resembles Marvel Ultimate Alliance/ X-men legends co-op RPGs. So yeah. Oh yeah, I guess we can say you don't like intro movies to be completely entertaining while providing you with your necessary exposition free of charge. The intro movie was awesome. But I guess you are going for your junior woodchuck "SUPER ELITEST" badge, where cool things only pass you by like Neo in a snowball fight
PS, the game didnt introduce Brainiac, he's been around since the 60's, and yes he is chock full of complete-bad-assery. Don't write the game off because you weren't well informed.
You reached this conclusion through actually playing the game, I assume?michael_sturtridge92 said:
That sir, is the easiest way to lose a duel and get teabagged. Sure It's good enough to do on a fetch quest, but anyone worth a smidge would be all in your pockets if you merely tried to mash out combos on them. The combat is deep. I guess you tried out PvE and found it shallow.TheEnglishman said:
Really? All of the voice actors from the animated series provide their talent for the iconic characters. Even the random NPC characters spout dialogue. Granted, like most RPG's I guess the game could have made you READ all of this, and I'm sure that would have opened up another can of worms. Oh yeah, and once again, The gameplay isn't rubbish. Your tactics were :-/ sorry.TheEnglishman said:
Once again, the combat is pretty deep.
Maybe Video Games aren't quite your cup of tea. Most action/adventure/rpg games have the same premise = "Save the day by hitting stuff a lot again"TheEnglishman said:
change hitting stuff to : hitting stuff with bullets = CoD, RDR, Gears of War etc
change hitting stuff to : hitting stuff with lasers = mass effect, Starcraft, Halo
change hitting stuff to : hitting dead stuff = any game with zombies
change hitting stuff to : hitting hookers = GTA
change hitting stuff to : hitting mushrooms and turtles = Super Mario
Maybe you'd like a good driving sim? Or a golf game. Or Civilization. I don't think you were the target market for DCUO.
You should so review another MMORPG next week, like Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates.
Something as old as that'd be a laugh.
Something as old as that'd be a laugh.
In the age of WoW you absolutely CANNOT ship an unfinished/unpolished/lackluster product or WoW will eat you. look at whats happening to FF14. its getting demolished because square tried to beat cataclysm's release date and ended up shooting themselves in the foot. I'm really sad to see another one bite the dust but if you want to compete with WoW its gonna take more effort.
First of all, we Super Elitists don't wear badges, nor do we write in Capslock, we're much too awesome for both. Also, we don't back up our own rage-speaks with something like "So yeah".Spookimitsu said:
Second,you know what? You're right, there are very, very, VERY few games out there which can be dubbed original, and even less who are accepted as such by everyone. You know what else? It's not really an excuse.
"It's an Superhero MMOG, so CoH and DCUO are bound to be similar" was the argument, right? With all due respect, that's bullcrap. Just because two games share the same genre and setting, it doesn't mean they have to be identical. For instance, a Superhero-game where the definition of a Superhero isn't "Wears funny, colourful costum, keeps a secret identity and has some randomly selected abilities" but something where the possible power have certain restrictions or all stem from specific sources and since every person basically could be a superhero the "secret identity"-stuff is replaced by "secretive behaviour".
Or an MMOG where you don't have levels and skilltrees but instead you get either more powerful by improving your basic abilities through practical use or try to form/find new abilities by actual effort rather than by default? And the story of the Game isn't prescribed by the developers but they create several options and then start events in certain intervalls and thus let the players shape the future of the game?
See? Superhero MMO that ISN'T CoH, and I'm not even trying.
Admittedly DCUO's options in variation are limited since it's a license game, but if I were to give DC that benefit, I'd immediately have to snatch it away for doing now what they should have done YEARS ago...kinda the time when CoH came out?
Overall it's just the point Yathzee mentioned with his "Factions"-example: The "But the other ones do that tooooo"-excuse should have ceased being an argument around the time we grew 12.
Yes, because the "Gritty looking persons kill each other off in a gunmetal-grey ruin and in such a bland fashion I couldn't even care if I wanted"-scenario is just so-much-fun and so never-seen-before, there's JUST NO WAY I could be bored to my sleep with it.
And don't even get me started and that "exposition". Yahtzee stopped at that time-travel-stuff, I could rag on for hours about how that stuff makes no sense in the slightest.
But I honestly find it amusing, when people come with this "You just try to sound elitist, by dismissing our AWESOMENESS as boring"-argument, because, yes, I heard that one before.
And just as those other times it's funny to see how you "just defend" that "awesome" Designed-by-comittee-crap, while I, obviously am just so "snobbish" I "can't enjoy anything". It can't be that I actually have a specific kind of expectation to a cinematic, can it? That maybe, just maybe, after countless treadmill-trailers, where hundreds of effects attempt to obscure that nothing of interest is actually going on, I demand from nowaday' trailers to at least TRY to peak my interest in the game? For instance by...I don't know...showing me some sad, grey tross for 5 minutes and then say "Oh, yeah, all of that just now? Didn't happen, we just couldn't think of a cheaper excuse to bring the player into the setting."
Nah, that's just impossible.
Return to your seat and retake your English-lesson. Read after me: "[...] and then introduce [...]AS THE ULTIMATE VILLAIN." Behold: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/10/24/ Just in case: The punchline is in panel 2.
And thanks to the Interhighway I actually was aware who Braniac is and what he does about three minutes after I saw the trailer the first time. And here's the surprise: All of that couldn't even remotely make up that his name is BRAINIAC, a name that induces about as much fear and respect as WILLY WONKA or RONALD McDONALD.
And that was also the essence of my criticism in that sentence: If you spent 6 minutes of CGI for turning a number of the most prominent heroes and villains of the DC Universe into superpowered, gritty cousins of the punisher, regardless of their history and personality so far, then the least you should do is find an ultimate villain with a better name than Brainiac.
I honestly can't even imagine how a DC-fan would be willing to defend that turd.
But I can say, that for someone who stopped caring for comics the moment he realised that due to the lack of backbone with the writers of the comic-industry as a whole Uncle Ben will be the only character EVER to actually STAY dead, that ending was just fricking hillarious.
That is your problem right there. You're looking at this with a mindset so far removed from comic-book escapism, you shouldn't even bother. That is not the developers' fault. You're looking for fun in places you can't find it.
Money. Oh, and there is the fact that we are social animals. The idea of having a game that can link people regardless of distance is great. It provides a form of escapism while still allowing people to (theoretically) still form potentially meaningfull bond and realation ship that allows people to enjoy of not enjoy each other company based on a person personality and not physical factor.viking97 said:
But theyre doing a rather shitty job. While the game doesn have socail aspects I does get far to caught up in the simple battle part and eventully makes the whole socail aspect moot.
I like the idea of MMO's and try out as many trails/betas as I can, but none of them really do it for me.
Sorry about that, it wasn't rage through which The capslock was used. Only used for emphasis.Headbiter said:
I had doubted this needed an explanation, but hey, I've been wrong before.
And btw
Nice Burn against that snide little "So yeah" comment. What the heck was I thinking? There is no way I should have dared to cross ideas with you and feel like I could type something as relaxed and possibly snarky as "So Yeah" and I'll be darned if you didnt call me out on it!No really, I've never played much CoX (or CO at all), but upon entry, I would assume one Superhero MMo is going to have some similarities to another. I was merely Pointing out something that you may have missed, which was its similarity to another ARPG which gasp stars superheros, but you didnt say anything about those blatant similarities.
And sure it is an excuse if they are going for a particular target market.
And I know lots of players whose characters dont wear funny colorful costumes, or have secret identities. What are you on about? And for player-made superpowers? I'd have to say, I'm with you on that, but you gotta admit, that system would be abused as hell, and you would endup with predefined powers anyway, or cookie cutter builds (which are still possible). I'm with you on the need for personal back stories as opposed to "everyone got powers from time traveling super bug dust", at least just something ingame that you can post a little back story would be cool too.
But it seems as if some of these limitations are all in your head.
You know the one greatest mechanism of fiction is the ability for the audience to suspend disbelief. If you cannot do that for a VideoGame about COMICBOOK HEROES (once again, for emphasis, not rage... sigh I wish I didnt have to clarify these things)
anyways... if you cant suspend disbelief for comicbook videogames, then maybe you are in the wrong isle. Not trying to be a prick, but like I said, maybe a Flight Simulation or something would be more up your alley (yes that was me reattempting snarkiness, not very well done. Sorry).
You're argument about the artistic choice for the intro movie is a little skewed. I mean the were trying to illustrate...
the death of many of their favourite characters of fiction
Yes I too get watered out from the Hollywood Machine action movie trailers, and pretty girls doing karate against giant samurai suits with gatling guns on top of a dragon. I believe I understand your point here. But once again, in a short cinema about comic books, I better damn well see some explosions, and if someone is going to kick the bucket, they better damn well make it gritty.
I never said that you can't enjoy anything. I may have merely hinted at your need to relax, oh wise one.
Oh goodness! another zinger. Ooh you told me to sit down and go to school! Aww hell naw gurl! Ok check this out. Seeing as how THEY made the game (not us), in conjunction with the people who actually write the stories (wait for it)
They can introduce WHOEVER they want as the ultimate villain. It's their property. Of fiction. I dont know, maybe you would have a problem with that because you have an idea of another villain more worthy? And if so, isn't that your own hang up that you shouldnt try to convince everyone else of? I dont know what they went through in production, But I can guarantee you they did give it some thought, and didnt just choose Brainiac on a whim. Neither you or I wrot... oh wait. Scratch that, I just realized I dont know you. Ok I didn't write any of it, I dont know if you did or not. I believe Brainiac was specifically chosen because of his abilities, and his and history in the tomes of DC history. But who am I to say who the writers choose to be their next big thing? I'm presonally still holding out for an expansion where Darkseid comes down and wrecks all types of shit.
Another thing I will agree with you though. DC's methods of issuing names to its characters seems kinda...antiquated. Hence we have "Brainiac"
Ultimately, outside of the create your own powers thing (which I think someone is implementing in an upcoming console title), most other changes that you (Headbiter) suggest you may actually get to see, if the developers are working on expansions for this game. Which, I believe all the current subscribers are hoping for. I too would like to see bigger and badder villains, and the ability to customize my character more, in terms of providing a history, about me section, etc etc. Ok tired of typing
Eh, I like DCUO. Never played an MMO before save the first six levels of WoW which I still rate as one of my best decisions ever, (i.e. to stop playing.)
I don't know much about the DC universe so I didn't really notice the shameless promotion of it's beloved, (I guess,) superheroes and villains, if it was there to be hurt I hurt it. And in doing that i did have quite a bit of fun. I know Yahtzee didn't like the combat much but with my only other MMO experience being WoW where the combat is click-to-engage-target 2... 2... 3... 2... 2... 4... 1... victory... I actually found the combo-based combat a lot more rewarding. When you were beating someone up it actually felt like you were beating them up.
Character customisation was... look it was okay, to be honest I was expecting more and given it's a superhero game and the oportunities are pretty much endless it did seem very light. I wanted a character of mine to look very cheep and home made and wanted to give him a crappy scarf-with-holes-in mask and a bandanna covering his mouth. I don't expect the designers to look into my head and see what I want but c'mon, that's pretty standard stuff isn't it? And yeah, there's the opportunity to pick up more stuff later and play around with your look but I don't really see why it wasn't expanded on in the creation scheme. Especially considering they included four fucking furry skins.
Negativity aside I do like DCUO - I just don't think it'll last, which is a shame really. There's obviously been a lot of effort put into it, it's fully voice acted from levels 1-30, (after that things get a little patchy but is still on the whole pretty good,) it looks good, the combat is fun, (for me,) and although it does exhibit the MMO "kill/gather x number of guys/items" there is a bit of shaking up to the formular which works very well. It also has the dual roles of performing for the DC fans and informing those ignorant about the considerably warped and fucked-up universe, which it does fairly well.
I suppose it depends how you approach it. I went into it with a cautious but pretty positive outlook and found myself pretty happy with it. However if you approach it with serious doubt then there's certainly a lot to scrutinise. I hope it gets the chance though, I mean WoW has been going for what, six-seven years now, and and the start it certainly had numerous issues which it's had time to sort out.
I don't know much about the DC universe so I didn't really notice the shameless promotion of it's beloved, (I guess,) superheroes and villains, if it was there to be hurt I hurt it. And in doing that i did have quite a bit of fun. I know Yahtzee didn't like the combat much but with my only other MMO experience being WoW where the combat is click-to-engage-target 2... 2... 3... 2... 2... 4... 1... victory... I actually found the combo-based combat a lot more rewarding. When you were beating someone up it actually felt like you were beating them up.
Character customisation was... look it was okay, to be honest I was expecting more and given it's a superhero game and the oportunities are pretty much endless it did seem very light. I wanted a character of mine to look very cheep and home made and wanted to give him a crappy scarf-with-holes-in mask and a bandanna covering his mouth. I don't expect the designers to look into my head and see what I want but c'mon, that's pretty standard stuff isn't it? And yeah, there's the opportunity to pick up more stuff later and play around with your look but I don't really see why it wasn't expanded on in the creation scheme. Especially considering they included four fucking furry skins.
Negativity aside I do like DCUO - I just don't think it'll last, which is a shame really. There's obviously been a lot of effort put into it, it's fully voice acted from levels 1-30, (after that things get a little patchy but is still on the whole pretty good,) it looks good, the combat is fun, (for me,) and although it does exhibit the MMO "kill/gather x number of guys/items" there is a bit of shaking up to the formular which works very well. It also has the dual roles of performing for the DC fans and informing those ignorant about the considerably warped and fucked-up universe, which it does fairly well.
I suppose it depends how you approach it. I went into it with a cautious but pretty positive outlook and found myself pretty happy with it. However if you approach it with serious doubt then there's certainly a lot to scrutinise. I hope it gets the chance though, I mean WoW has been going for what, six-seven years now, and and the start it certainly had numerous issues which it's had time to sort out.
No, actually. Does it matter? I'm just expressing my opinion. These types of games just aren't my thing. And I don't have the sheer amount of time to invest into full time gaming anymore anyway. I'll only buy something if I really think it's going to be a truly amazing game. As such, the new games I've bought in the last few years have been few and far between.Spookimitsu said:
True. Among other things about the assumption I dubbed your last answer a rage-post BECAUSE OF the Capslock. The general writing style, content and overused "I need to defend my franchise"-arguments earned you that. The Capslock is merely one of those petty little annoyances one can rag on about.Spookimitsu said:
Though admittedly the "emphasis"-explanation surprised. Usually I expect the words "sarcasm" or "irony" appear in those cop-outs, along the dramatic "I can't believe I have to explain that"-lament. Neither of those are very convincing, mind you, but at least it was unexpected.
What to say, I like to put my eye for detail and my experience to use. And I dare to say that this "little comment" shows anything but relaxation.And btw
Well, if you wish I could start talking about that and many more aspects that reek to me of terrible decision-making. Yes, I too never got much into the whole Superhero-MMOG-Scene, simply because even CoH was too much of those spandex-heroes for me. But this is really a point where I completely disagree with your argumentation, that a similar....foundation for the setting's background equals an almost identical game.
Like I said, from a game designers perspective they just did way too little too late to stand out. And as I will point out later in another context, for me, the time it was okay to accept all and any bullshit is over. I'm not accepting such shallow excuses like "Well, the other guys did this as well" anymore and in retrospect, the entire gaming community should never have.
And as I stated before, I'm aware, that DC in particular is limited (partly by default, partly by self-caused impotence)in terms of treading new ground, but that only shows the lack of foresight and timing on their part and would even moreso ask for something special, which would make one WANT to play the actual game.
And no, "Batman's in it" doesn't count as such.
Yes, standardized cop-out Nr. chooseanumber. The infamous "suspense of disbelief". Time for a little trip.
I don't know what the original one went like or where it came from, but there's a saying that roughly goes along the lines of "Too much of anything is bad for you".
With that in mind, let me tell you a little about a famous DC-character I actually know nigh to nothing about: The Green lantern, aka that funny guy that somehow completely went past me without me noticing.
So far I figured out that Green Lantern isn't just one guy, but many guys, the green lantern corps. Wether they are some sort of lineage or if there are several green lanterns at a time, I don't know. They get their powers from a ring. Where does that ring come from, why does it give those power and how did this corps got it? I don't know. The rings power manifests in the ability to create anything the wielder can imagine in the form of "green energy". How exactly does that work, why, under which conditions? Not a clue.
I COULD ask hundreds of question, actually question the whole thing. But I don't I don't want to. Because it gives me a fictional framework, I can follow. If people use magic, I don't necessarily ask how exactly the scientific process of casting spells works. That's your suspense of disbelief. There's a youtube-video where Robert McKee talk about creative limitation. Fits here perfectly and if you have any interest in storytelling of any sort at all, I'd advise to watch at least that vid.
Now let's return to said trailer. Honestly, I don't even want to pick it apart bit by bit unless someone actually demands it, since it'd be a lot of text. The point is ultimately, that within this game and the trailer in particular we are no longer just asked to suspend our disbelief, they just toss so much stuff at us in a short time that is just so inexplicably nonsensical, it's more like "Ah, hell, do whatever you want, I stopped paying attention."
And that's were we cross from the paradise of immersing into a supernatural world into the downtrotten slum of lazy writing.
Oh and actually that flightsimulator-burn? First and only of your attempts in this matter so far I found interesting.
Actually, the DEATHS of those heroes were the only thing they didn't make gritty.
Green Arrow? Lies there, as a part of the landscape, for a few seconds.
Gigantess? Appears and drops dead.
Metallo? Gets cut into pieces by a probably batshit bonkers Wonderwoman...and shows as much reaction to his mutilation as a toaster would.
Flash, Harley Quinn, Green Lantern, Cyborg and that witch. Somehow disappear unseen after completely uninteresting appearances. (with Flash being the biggest joke of them all)
Batman & Deathstroke? Disappear in an explosion in the background(!)
Wonderwoman? We see her pain-ridden face for about 0.8 seconds. Hey, at least something.
Black Adam? See my first post in this thread.
And finally Superman? Spear through chest, done, camera positioned in such a genius way that superman's face is buried in the lower right corner.
They're just making the setting and characterization gritty. Not to create drama or an atmosphere of tension, for that there just happens too much in a very short time. There's no weight to those heroes' death, they just make their appearances for the fans and then get tossed off-screen, like items on a checklist. It's just this typical scenario: Surveys probably showed that teens nowadays like "cool", gritty, punisher-like settings, so let's turn it into that. It's not really that I tried to apply my "high standards" on this trailer, it's rather that it's quality is so unbelievably low, it's basically nonexistant.
In that context, let's do a little experiment: Watch the current Star Wars: the old republic-cinematic. Then watch the DCOU-trailer again. Now watch both of them again, but under the condition that you "blend out" every information that you didn't gather through the video you just saw. That's right, don't make those guys' jobs easy by filling the gaps of the video with the knowledge you gathered by chance through your childhood (under the assumption it lays behind you of course). Just watch it as someone who looks for a new MMOG to play.
And now tell YOURSELF, did you just learn ANYTHING valuable about the game or the story, if so WHAT is it and would you be willing to ACCEPT what you were shown?
And about my behaviour towards the lemmings cheering for it, you're damn right about that. Because if I can't ask for better-quality entertainment with absolut conviction, I couldn't, in good conscience, expect the same from the industry and the rest of the community. It's one of those life-experience things:
Ever since a certain shooter-franchise came to be there was this dialogue:
Smart player: "Wow, [product x] is awful. It really is just mediocre at best. The flaws are so obvious, I could actually proove the poor quality scientifically."
Fratboy John: "Nah, dude, it's awesome!"
Smart Player: "What? What's awesome about it?"
Fratboy John: "Well, it's big fun."
Smart Player: "What's fun about it? Here, I can show you ten games, which are cheaper in prize and better than [project x] in any way. [Brings actual arguments].
Fratboy John: "Whatever. You just grumpy."
And Smart Player thought 'Ah well, if he enjoys blinky lights, why not let him?'.
The result: Any critique on unambitious or mediocre games got pushed aside as just being grumpy, Fratboy John multiplied by the millions and the industry spurts out one boring turd after another but sells it by the trillions because "it's fun".
And Smart Player's acceptance of that mindset left him stranded with about one exciting release every few years.
With that in mind, I think I'll stick to my attitude toward's people whose strongest and most complex argument is "it's fun."
One of these days, someone has to explain to me, why someone who utters critisizm about something
Hey, you faceplanted yourself full speed with an attempt to burn me through the use of one of my own statements. Even lightened that faceplant up by doing it within a PS. And it would've been avoilable REALLY easily....by not reading and writing under he influence of high levels of adrenaline. Like, if you were....relaxed.
If you didn't see that one coming from a mile ago, I'd guess you're blind.
Okay, seriously? Did you just actually bring up the lamest and...voidest cop-out in the history of...well...everything?
OF COURSE it's their property and OF COURSE they may do with it what they want. Stephanie Meyer is also allowed to write whatever she wants.
Me too, by the way. I can fill up my shit in little plastic bags. I can then try to sell my shit. I could even coerce people into paying 90 $ for my shit in plastic bags, because I put pictures of Superman and Wonderwoman on those bags. And there could be people going to internet forums, writing "Oh my god, Headbiter's shit is so amazing and cool and I'm so happy I gave him 90 $ for his shit and I'm so looking forward to shit 2".
And I could do all of this, because it's my shit and I can do with my shit whatever I want.
But at the end of the day it would still be nothing but shit. And the people who paid for it are ultimately nothing but some weird, easily satisfied guys with no standards who just paid a crapload of money for shit in bags...with pictures of Superman and Wonderwoman on it.
Considering that thing that's called pattern recognition, I'd wager you're in for a big disappointment.
"Lo I have been struck" HAHAHA
I remember the repetitive combat dialogue was especially bad in Spider-Man Shattered Dimensions
I remember the repetitive combat dialogue was especially bad in Spider-Man Shattered Dimensions
I remember seeing the Star Wars trailer...so epic, so crips, so enticing...then I found out it was an MMO and realized that nothing in the trailer would be translated to gameplay exactly bahaha...sighhgphjr14 said:
I was just being picky. I had figured seeing as how you concluded as opposed to assumed or surmised, that you actually played the game, and saw for a fact that it was boring and repetitive.michael_sturtridge92 said:
I will admit, there are repetitive parts in it, if you are forced to grind out missions over and over again to accumulate points for different tiered sets of armour. Heres for hoping that this months content update will fill that void. The makers promised monthly content updates, and this will be the first we'll get to see.