Zero Punctuation: Mass Effect Andromeda

[MrFalconfly]

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1) I think I've paid plenty of attention. What I haven't done is, develop an emotional attachment to the franchise. I don't see why, if people were fine with the facial animations of the previous games, it's suddenly an issue now.

2) If that was their goal, they failed pretty spectacularly. Yeah sure, let's start exploring this sprawling universe while RACING AGAINST A GENOCIDAL POST-BIOLOGICAL RACE OF KILLING-MACHINES. ME:A is actually better in this case because A: It's the Andromeda galaxy, meaning all bets are off and B: The stated mission of the Andromeda Initiative was to explore.

3) Honestly, we're talking about an entire galaxy. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect at least a few vacant planets, considering M31 (Andromeda Galaxy) is bigger than the Milky Way, and contains about 1 Trillion stars (about twice what is in the Milky Way). As for the Reapers. Why would they be in the Andromeda Galaxy? They were a Milky Way solution to a Milky Way problem.

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Yeah there is, because that isn't a downgrade. Granted, it may not be an upgrade as some people would expect, but it isn't a downgrade. Maintaining a standard isn't a downgrade.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Well, at least they fixed that up today.

And this is why I never buy games at launch.

Too bad they can't do the same with writing and game mechanics.

 

[4Aces]

They just keep lying.

Well if Todd Howard can continually do it without getting hit with false advertising lawsuits, why would a souless shoggoth like EA do any differently?

Too bad they can't do the same with writing and game mechanics.

They could if EA would let them. Ya, I cannot stop laughing either.

 

[hentropy]

1) I think I've paid plenty of attention. What I haven't done is, develop an emotional attachment to the franchise. I don't see why, if people were fine with the facial animations of the previous games, it's suddenly an issue now.

Because they're objectively worse. I don't throw that word around often, but the eyes in particular look (or looked) much less like human eyes than actual eyes, and there was no attempt at stylization. They just looked back. In the past, Bioware got the easy stuff right but fucked up the hard stuff, I'll be the first to admit. Now they are fucking up the basic stuff.

I do have an emotional attachment to the game, but it's not only long-time fans that are panning it, it's also neutral observers and industry professionals pointing out how bad it is compared to the trilogy. One of the dev leads has basically admitted the problem and they're now in the process of fixing it.

It seems like you're desperately going to bat for and defending a game series you've never played for other personal reasons I'm not going to guess.

2) If that was their goal, they failed pretty spectacularly. Yeah sure, let's start exploring this sprawling universe while RACING AGAINST A GENOCIDAL POST-BIOLOGICAL RACE OF KILLING-MACHINES. ME:A is actually better in this case because A: It's the Andromeda galaxy, meaning all bets are off and B: The stated mission of the Andromeda Initiative was to explore.

That's because the games were never, ever, not once, about physical exploration. It's about exploring the characters, the politics and intricacies of the races, the depth of the locations. Maybe your confusion is because of that? In ME1, you're going down on planets to investigate anomalies and pirate activity, not to chart the planet, which has already been found. In the process of that, you can explore the surrounding square mile and pick up a couple of metals, which is completely optional and, unless you're going full completionist, is not necessary at all.

The whole thrust of the first 2 games is that no one believes you about these ancient machines. The only evidence for them only exists in your head. ME1 admittedly falls into the old RPG trap of "here's this big urgent mission, but do as many sidequests as you like in the meantime!" In ME2 there is no ticking clock, it's all about building your team and getting ready for the mission. There's a couple of "big urgent" missions thrown in the middle, but you are forced to drop everything and do them as they become available. ME3 purposefully cuts down on the number of sidequests due to there being a galactic war on, and it never feels like you're fucking around and doing pointless stuff while there's urgent stuff to do.

Taking it to a new galaxy is like taking Star Wars to a new galaxy where there's no Jedi or Wookies and there's only a few fancy space ships and it's all about finding a new desert planet the future hero to be left on. You could ask what the point of moving the whole thing to Andromeda is and making it some kind of planet exploration story, but you don't have to, it was because they wrote themselves into a corner with the ending to the trilogy, and rather than taking the bull by the horns and making a true sequel that takes that into account (they did have 5 years and 40m, after all), they decided to do a soft reboot that lacked all the thrust and interest of the original, with a team of amateurs apparently slapping together huge parts of the game.

They just keep lying.

Well if Todd Howard can continually do it without getting hit with false advertising lawsuits, why would a souless shoggoth like EA do any differently?

Too bad they can't do the same with writing and game mechanics.

They could if EA would let them. Ya, I cannot stop laughing either.

As much as I'd like to blame EA, none of this is their fault. I don't have any inside info but a massive soulless shoggoth like EA probably wouldn't be micromanaging the facial animations and making them look like shit. They didn't make them write ME3's ending and make a sequel for it very difficult to do. I'm not sure whose decision it was to hand it over to Bioware Montreal, but something tells me it wasn't EA that forced their hand on it. And even if they did, it's up to Bioware to ensure that their Montreal branch is doing stuff right.

EA could have done proper quality control and made sure the game under their label didn't make a bunch of amateur mistakes, but that's the extent of their responsibility.

5 years and 40 million dollars... EA gave them everything they needed to make a decent game. All the shit is on Bioware's head. If anything EA might be a part-savior here, as they probably saw the lower-than-expected sales numbers and bad press and is forcing Bioware to start fixing it.

 

[esserin]

They just keep lying.

Well if Todd Howard can continually do it without getting hit with false advertising lawsuits, why would a souless shoggoth like EA do any differently?

Too bad they can't do the same with writing and game mechanics.

They could if EA would let them. Ya, I cannot stop laughing either.

As much as I'd like to blame EA, none of this is their fault. I don't have any inside info but a massive soulless shoggoth like EA probably wouldn't be micromanaging the facial animations and making them look like shit. They didn't make them write ME3's ending and make a sequel for it very difficult to do. I'm not sure whose decision it was to hand it over to Bioware Montreal, but something tells me it wasn't EA that forced their hand on it. And even if they did, it's up to Bioware to ensure that their Montreal branch is doing stuff right.

EA could have done proper quality control and made sure the game under their label didn't make a bunch of amateur mistakes, but that's the extent of their responsibility.

5 years and 40 million dollars... EA gave them everything they needed to make a decent game. All the shit is on Bioware's head. If anything EA might be a part-savior here, as they probably saw the lower-than-expected sales numbers and bad press and is forcing Bioware to start fixing it.

Actually, from what I've heard, EA is having bioware make a videogame like the division/destiny.

So, this seems similar to dragon age 2 except, instead of having almost no time to make the game, they have nobody experienced managing development.
They're are rumors coming out about bad management in bioware montreal. Apparently, the managers decided to outsource the human facial animations.

Which, if true, is just... monumentally stupid.

 

[hentropy]

[Actually, from what I've heard, EA is having bioware make a videogame like the division/destiny.

So, this seems similar to dragon age 2 except, instead of having almost no time to make the game, they have nobody experienced managing development.
They're are rumors coming out about bad management in bioware montreal. Apparently, the managers decided to outsource the human facial animations.

Which, if true, is just... monumentally stupid.

I don't like to put too much stock in rumors. I have heard them, I'm not going to try and guess what kind of game they're planning to make. But it's still Bioware: Montreal. EA was not the one would hired people who didn't know what the hell they were doing, and they likely didn't force them to outsource either. Management issues come down on the dev, not the publisher.

DA2 was actually a pretty good if not great game that just wasn't left in the oven long enough. Every major problem with the game can be traced back to it being rushed. Small world, one ending, battles consisting of just waves of enemies, all happened because it was rushed. This game wasn't rushed, it wasn't underfunded, the dev just didn't hire enough people who knew what they were doing or who understood what made the originals good games.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

If that's the scene I think it is (shot's too cropped to tell, likely to evoke a derogatory response. Also didn't use the default face) that's not a smile, that's pain. Specifically an expression someone would make when doing that sharp, hissing intake of breath through your teeth.

I was just pretending I was in sharp pain, and the expression still looks more like she blinked from a camera flash with a goofy-ass smile rather than a grimace. There should be a furrowing of the brow, the lips aren't pulled back that far, the eyelids should be tightly squeezed shut, visible creasing of the forehead from furrowing her brow.

I've also seen the scene in question, and it doesn't help that she makes that "grimace", holds it for about 3 seconds, then goes back to dead-faced, and then performs the same "grimace" again in a loop.

Well, at least they fixed that up today.

Spoiler

Well.. that's a little better. I don't know why top chick still has that oily/greasy look going on, but she looks a little more human at least. I don't really see too much of a difference with the bottom chick, though, aside from the eyes and lips.

 

[Miral]

I've put 70 hours into ME:A so far. Still haven't finished the main story (although I'm starting to get close). There's been the occasional bug and frequent graphics glitch and wonky animation, but you go into an Bioware game expecting those. I've greatly enjoyed my time so far in the game -- and I've mostly been playing it on "combat is laughably easy" difficulty.

Rushing the main story is never the right thing to do in Bioware games; the main story is usually the worst part of the game.

Also: the recent patch made most of the spaceflight animations optional. Generally I still want to do them the first time visiting somewhere, but for places you visit frequently (like the colony worlds) you can get there a bit quicker. Although the takeoff/landing animations are still unskippable at the moment.

 

[MrFalconfly]

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1) No, they aren't objectively worse.

They're objectively equal (same number of polygons, same textures, same dead as bugger eyes, and same rubbery skin).

What can cause people to think they're worse, is because they haven't improved.

2) Oh, so we've gone from lackadaisical to schizophrenic. Aside from fighting this force, you also need to explore the human condition and new races and cultures.

Sorry, but Andromeda still makes more sense.

New galaxy, and actual focus on exploring new places and new cultures.

 

[hentropy]

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1) No, they aren't objectively worse.

They're objectively equal (same number of polygons, same textures, same dead as bugger eyes, and same rubbery skin).

What can cause people to think they're worse, is because they haven't improved.

Are you being serious right now? You think "number of pixels" has anything to do with how natural a face looks and moves? They are objectively not the same eyes. They are objectively not the same textures (even DA:I had different textures). Again, you don't really have to take my word for it, when the Bioware team themselves basically said they were worse than the originals and went back and redid it.

The fact that they didn't show any improvement over the course of the series and regressed quite a bit for ME:A is an issue, of course.

It's okay. No one is going to point at you and laugh for being wrong about this, I'm not sure how many people even care at this point. I can't fathom why you're trying so desperately to defend a game or to disparage a trilogy when you've apparently never played any of them.

2) Oh, so we've gone from lackadaisical to schizophrenic. Aside from fighting this force, you also need to explore the human condition and new races and cultures.

Sorry, but Andromeda still makes more sense.

New galaxy, and actual focus on exploring new places and new cultures.

Again, you just don't know what you're talking about at this point, and you just seem to be plugging your ears and repeating ignorant arguments because you're desperately trying to defend Andromeda. You don't "need" to explore the "human condition." There's no quest line for "learn about the galaxy and its cultures." The skill of the writing is such that you never "need" to do anything but play the game, and you get a rich galaxy full of interesting cultures and people. ME2/3 handled this better than ME1 of course- there were a lot of long expositional conversations in ME1, but the voice acting, writing, and even design of the environments saved it.

Mass Effect was never really about exploration, as I said, but can it work with that? Well, it could, if the new species/galaxy/planets are actually done as good or better than the original. Instead they just kinda wanted to rehash the original trilogy in a half-assed way in a new galaxy with a couple of new races and a new big bad. It's like if you set Star Wars in a new galaxy, but instead of Jedi you have the "Zori" who do something similar to Jedi but not quite, and rather than laser swords they fight with laser boxing gloves.

If you want to do something new, then do something new, don't take the original strip out most of the things that made it interesting but copy all of the superficial aspects of it and pretend that it is new.

 

[MrFalconfly]

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1) Number of polygons, and number of pixels are just two parameters of facial animation quality. Seeing as I also mentioned "dead eyes", and "rubbery skin" (or facial movements, if you will), I say labelling me as "only focusing on number of pixels" is being a bit fucking disingenuous.

If I'm defending ME:A it's because I'd like to see just a bit of internal consistency, because right now, the whole gaming community seems not only impossible to please, but schizophrenic as fuck.

2) Oh great, so the old ME trilogy had a lackadaisical story with fuckall focus then?

No overarching goal, no reason to do anything (except possibly blue bewbs).

Sorry, but so far ME:A still has the better story (and actual fun gameplay, unlike the previous 3, which seemed to have shooter-mechanics shoved on as an afterthought).

 

[hentropy]

[labelling me as "only focusing on number of pixels" is being a bit fucking disingenuous.

If I'm defending ME:A it's because I'd like to see just a bit of internal consistency, because right now, the whole gaming community seems not only impossible to please, but schizophrenic as fuck.

You know what is also "fucking disingenuous"? Making sweeping, qualitative statements about a game you've never played, not because they're your actual opinions based on sinking hours into the game, but because you want to get mad because other people are getting mad. And now I'm getting mad because you're getting mad that other people are getting mad over a game you've never played and doesn't look like you have any interest in playing.

Sorry friend, people who sunk 120 hours into the original trilogy- several times over in many cases- are simply more qualified to assess the new game's quality in comparison to the originals than you are. Bioware fans have a long, storied tradition criticizing them, but they do it out a love and a hope that Bioware fixes it problems. And as we saw, sometimes they are willing to accept some of these criticisms and change things up, even if it's only after the game is released. There's nothing toxic or negative about the community in that case. I would say it's quite a good thing when a fanbase makes constructive criticism that the developer can act on. Obviously you have a bunch of idiots who do idiotic things with their outrage. But this isn't just some "schizophrenic" hating on a game for silly and inconsistent reasons. Even people who enjoy the game overall have admitted it is disappointing in aspects.

You know, I don't like say, the Call of Duty series, I don't know much about it other than advertising material. If a bunch of CoD fans whipped themselves up into a tizzy over one of their newer games, you know what my reaction would be? I would stay the fuck out of it, because me trying to debate the qualities of a game I've never played or even watched an extended LP of would be silly. Much more silly than the people who are just trying to improve the quality of their favorite series.

And you know what? Maybe I've been a bit hard on ME:A. I haven't actually played it myself. I don't wish to take from anyone elses enjoyment if they do like it. I'll probably play it at some point, after all the obvious problems with it are fixed. I would never say outright that it's a bad overall game because I have not played it, only trying to elaborate the reasons why the direction they went in and how it looks from the outside is rather disappointing.

2) Oh great, so the old ME trilogy had a lackadaisical story with fuckall focus then?

No overarching goal, no reason to do anything (except possibly blue bewbs).

Sorry, but so far ME:A still has the better story (and actual fun gameplay, unlike the previous 3, which seemed to have shooter-mechanics shoved on as an afterthought).

I'm not going to sit here and explain to you the plot of Mass Effect and how it never feels like you lose focus. All three games are around 40 hours or longer if you listen to the dialogue and don't skip scenes. That's about 120 hours worth of gameplay. Until you actually invest the time into playing or at least watching it be played for a significant amount of time, then your opinion is simply not informed.

Sorry, but you're a person who is trying to shame fellow gamers for petty personal reasons, freely admitting an ulterior motive that has nothing to do with game quality, trying to shit on games you know nothing about while apparently trying to prop up a game you also know nothing about.

 

[4Aces]

... after all the obvious problems with it are fixed.

So, never then? This is EAware we are talking about. All the Bio has left the building.

 

[Rochelle Ragnarok]

That was a fun review, gets me all smiling.

Regarding that.

I feel as if the Bioware fans are looking at the previous 3 games through rose-tinted goggles.

ME:A doesn't look any worse, nor any better than any of the other ME games, and the voice acting isn't a dip in quality either.

Dunno, I feel the faces/heads were a bit better in 2 and 3, at least as a whole. both Anderson and Hackett looked amazing, while most of the characters in Andromeda look rather plain, not really sure I'd be able to tell an important non-crew NPC from pretty much any other non-crew NPC.

I don't.

The facial animations in the entire ME trilogy was just as wooden as it is said to be in ME:A. Eyes vacant, and face as stiff as plastic.

like this one from ME:3

And I've yet to see any characters in ME:A (including the much commented about, Director Addison) whose voice acting was as wooden, and phoned in, as Alistair's from DA:O.

No they were not. One picture of Shepard does not discount all of the facial expressions he has in game. I just finished up another OT run and there is no way the faces in the OT are as badly done as ME:A. Someone even posted a comparison between Ash in ME1 and Addison in MEA. There is a big difference.

Spoiler

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[MrFalconfly]

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Not that big a difference really.

The only difference in this equation is the fact that I have no emotional commitment with the previous ME games, meaning I have no reason to actually think they look better.

If anything, the non-fans are your best bet in deciding whether ME:A has suffered a graphical downgrade or not. And most non-fans don't really see it, because they don't have rosy goggles filtering their view of the previous games.

 

[Rochelle Ragnarok]

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Not that big a difference really.

The only difference in this equation is the fact that I have no emotional commitment with the previous ME games, meaning I have no reason to actually think they look better.

If anything, the non-fans are your best bet in deciding whether ME:A has suffered a graphical downgrade or not. And most non-fans don't really see it, because they don't have rosy goggles filtering their view of the previous games.

GTFO. I wish I had read more of your posts before posting my reply because apparently you've never even played the games before. I sank 100+ hours in the OT and 97 hours into MEA. I know more of what I'm talking about than someone who hasn't played the games at all. Your opinion is like saying a person who never practiced law makes a better lawyer than the person who sank years of their lives into law school. Which one would you rather have explain the law to you?

Besides, Bioware acknowledged the problem and is working to fix it with several patches. So your entire point is moot anyway when the company your trying to defend disagrees with you.

 

[MrFalconfly]

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Different bloody concept.

Perceived graphical quality OBVIOUSLY isn't equivalent with Law.

Bloody hell, one would think that'd be obvious.

 

[Rochelle Ragnarok]

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Different bloody concept.

Perceived graphical quality OBVIOUSLY isn't equivalent with Law.

Bloody hell, one would think that'd be obvious.

Your opinion is that a person with less experience is more qualified than one with more experience. Don't blame me for your poor logic.

 

[MrFalconfly]

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Different bloody concept.

Perceived graphical quality OBVIOUSLY isn't equivalent with Law.

Bloody hell, one would think that'd be obvious.

Your opinion is that a person with less experience is more qualified than one with more experience. Don't blame me for your poor logic.

Sure, if that's how you read my response, then I can see how the comparison might make sense.

However that wasn't what I said.

I said a person with less emotional investment is more qualified, than one who is emotionally invested.

 

[Cade4stor]

First of all, I have recently replayed the trilogy, and aside from that ONE MOMENT in the pic, as well as Mirandas face (since the actress had a goofy smile on her face for the whole motion capture), the face work was excellent, especially considering the good examples we have to compare it against are games made AFTER.

Second, both the video and some of the commenters here don't seem to realize, Andromeda was made by an almost entirely new team, who only did assistance work on previous Bioware games. ME:A was made by Bioware in name only.

Jonathan Cooper seems to think the face thing stems from programming issues. Whether it is that, or outsourcing it, or just because its made by a developer who never made an actual videogame before "Bioware Montreal", it doesn't change the previous games, and it doesn't prevent the issues from being fixed in patches.

The ultimate lesson here, is just listen to John Bain, and DON'T PRE-ORDER GAMES. I always wait until a bundle/collection is on a Black Friday or december sale, that has all the patches and most or all of the dlc, a year or two after launch. For RPGs and strategy at least.

As for non-face issues, I can't comment without playing myself.