Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

[Ultrajoe]

...I...Are, you you honestly that thick or are you just dicking around? The point is that the very things you love about it are the problems with it. You may love them to death, just like some Narutards love Sasuke, but your love of all things shitty doesn't mean it's good. It's just what you like.

There's my point. You like what can objectively be called "bad" or "trying" or "annoying" or whatever. Why not just admit it? I don't care if you like those aspects, believe me, I understand what it's like to enjoy something with problems, but I do care that people have to tout the things they love as being awesome and beyond reproach. Being good and being enjoyable mustn't always go hand in hand.


Why can't you admit you like the crappy aspects. No, don't tell me you love it and blah blah blah and that makes it good. It makes it ENJOYABLE and specifically to you/others who enjoy the same thing. Why must your love be contingent on it being good? With the exception of a few vocal people, most here, even OTHER FANS can admit to seeing the problems with this game. They can see the issues and still love it.

Why is it that Indigo_Dingo, Jumplion, TerraMGP and miscellanious people not on this page that I can't be arsed to go find must defend to the death these things as being great but only if your one of those people that "get" it. You know, a hip, jazzy, super cool, neat, keen, and groovy cat. It's in the fridge, daddy-o! Are you hip to the jive? Can you dig what I'm layin' down? I knew that you could. Slide me some skin, soul brother!

just to poke a third party opinion.

Why does your; inability to comprehend/taste/playing style Automatically mean a game is bad.

why do you feel the need to attack to death those things as being bad?

im off now, this thread reminds me of why i stay away from featured content.

 

[swytchblayd]

I got the feeling that this review was more of a whine-fest than anything >.> Definitely not Yahtzee's best piece of work...

By the way, why the hell should we be re-introduced to Raiden? Even if he wears a ninja suit and can cut down Gears with a vibrating sword, his face still makes me want to just punch him in the face. And that voice... maybe its just the US version, but he makes me laugh in the worst way every time his mouth opens. In my opinion, any MGS game that has that retarded asschild in it will most certainly always have a certain bad taste in my mouth >.< If what everything's being said goes true, then I'll stick to MGS3:SE as my all-time favorite... there will never be another like the original Snake. Never.


Anyways, I'm not sure if this has been realized or not, but there's been a lot of dirty naming going on here I mean, come on... Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, Solidius Snake, Naked Snake, and now we have Old Snake... Hell, why not just rename Raiden 'Trouser Snake' and finally give him a title that suits his actual level of intelligence?

 

[Tempdude0]

Uh, never said the game was bad, just mediocre. If I did, I apologize, rectify said statement, and now clarify that I don't feel it was terrible. I feel the writing was bad though. I understand why some people like it. I stated I understand their enjoyment of it. I repeatedly stated I understand their enjoyment. I even went so far as to say I could relate. However, if I see people chuckling at monkeys throwing shit and the audience is comparing it favorably to D. H. Lawrence, I get miffed. They clearly aren't on the same level. One is D. H. fucking Lawrence and the other is monkeys flinging poo.

The same case is here, when a writer goes to egregious lengths to tell a story than that writing is bad...or at least mediocre. The good aspects of said story get lost in the sheer amount of information being thrown at the watcher/reader.

I attack these people because they nitpick what they'll respond to. If a person makes a statement and you're going to respond, attempt to work in most of what they've said, not a single sentence taken out of context. That's not debating and it boils down to an ego-wank. You can't ignore the context nor entire points for the sake of convenience if you're attempting to make a counter-point. Unless you're a politician, then it's par for the course.

As for staying away from featured comments, if I actually got a well reasoned response that took all points made into account and there was some attempt at an actual dialog I wouldn't make personal attacks. They don't add anything save to illustrate my lack of respect for people who keep taking pruning sheers to other peoples arguments.

You want a debate, fine and dandy, I love debates...But I'm not going to sit around and argue in a respectful tone with people who can't be bothered to respond to what people are ACTUALLY saying. It's pretty simple.



Oh, and Terra replied again. Goody...In order:

1) Do tell what the catchalls in Enders game are, I'm curious. Please, I'm not even being sarcastic this time. I'm honestly curious where you're picking this up.

2) I said nothing about assumptions, at least get what I'm saying straight. Well, you may be referring to my "suspension of disbelief" line, but then...thats what I said. Everything requires suspension of disbelief to a certain extent. It's when this suspension is stretched to the breaking point where things go sour.

3) ...You'd be ticked off at the writing if it was a book, but not a game? The book relating to D&D, the most fluff heavy thing I can think of in existance. That's confusing to the point I don't even WANT to know.

4) Do you read what I write or just catch a glimpse and go tangent mode?

That list would have been last post had I noticed your comments. Eh, c'est la vie. That said, the last one was pretty much entirely in response to Indigo_Dingo.

Oh, and trouser snake would have lent itself to way too many insufferable puns and penis jokes. Most people dislike the guy already, he doesn't need anything else terrible added to his character...Ha ha, thunder down under. There, that's a free one that could have been used if he had been called that...And now I need to wash.

 

[TerraMGP]

ok, lets just reply to these in kind.

1. Please tell me how you explain the tech in ANY Sci-Fi without ending up at a catchall. If nothing else you have the universal catchall of "well, its Science fiction". It may not always be clearly defined but honestly even in works like starwars 'the force' is only a fan-assumed catchall. My point is that unless you can explain ALL of the physics about it to a reasonable extent, then the assumption that things work is the catchall. Do you see what I am saying?

2. I'm asking why some works seem to create that much more suspension to you. At this point I would have to say its more of an objective thing than anything, how open your mind is willing to be and how well you know the subject matter. Thats more personal than a flaw with writing.

3. Because I pay for crunch with D&D books. If I am paying that kind of money for a game book I want the tools to write my OWN characters and campaigns and more crunch. Fluff in those cases beyond simple flavor text is really simply just filler in my mind.

4.Yes I do.

 

[entropy3ko]

Mailbag...showdown...sense...tingling....

Let's hope so

 

[Tempdude0]

Lost is...well, odd, though considering it's not supposed to take place in normal reality I give it a whole bunch of leeway. It goes so far that it's more of a fantasy series, and fantasy can always just fall back on "it's magic" which would be weak writing. As for "normal reality" The MGS series takes place in a reality that is similar to our own with the addition of super-science. All other aspects of reality are essentially held to. In addition to all that, Lost is still going, so until most of the questions are answered I can't say much about it aside from it being a head-trip. That, and I don't really follow it so I can't argue anything about it.

1) Uh, nooooo, because that's not what a catchall is. As far as the tech in Enders Game, it was all pretty much computers. Relatively advanced ones, but considering they were essentially playing a realtime strategy game in 3-D, I don't see where the "Sci-fi" in that aspect is considering we have things like that now..just not in full 3-D. Once again, point out the specific ones you obviously know about, because if you didn't have one in mind you wouldn't have made the statement...Or did you not know what you were talking about and just wanted to make a smart ass comment?

2) That's "subjective" you're looking for there chief, and the initial amount of suspension is created at the start of the series. Take Dick Tracy as an example. We can accept a few goofy people here and there, but no one superhuman ever showed up. A few with remarkable abilities perhaps, but no "leaping small buildings in a single bound" If someone did this, it would break the established tone of the series. It's not that difficult.

3) Eh, whatever. I said I didn't want to know and really, I meant it. Your explanation is sufficient, I suppose, but considering the D&D BOOKS (read, not rulebooks) are meant to be fluff and should be held in the same regard as the storytelling in MGS 4 I'm still somewhat lost.

5) I doubt it, what with you not actually responding to my first question and just going off on a barely related tangent.

 

[TerraMGP]

I find it interesting that you give some things leeway and refuse that leeway to other things for the same reason. MGS is taking place in a fictional modern day. As I said before this whole thing is subjective and the whole idea of a catchall is for the most part flawed. Even the use of 'the force' as a catchall is flawed. I am trying to explain that what you are talking about, at least in terms of science fiction and the science itself, the catchall that it is fiction. Everything is more about this whole idea of what your willing to accept or not. Enders game has the same catchall as every work of science fiction, the simple fact that you have to accept the BS as plausible enough to ignore the flaws in. That is something personal more than a matter of writing. Yes their can be glaringly bad writing where some cop out explanation is used for everything, but that is not Starwars, at least not the extended Starwars, that is not the MGS series, if anything with series like that the problem is the opposite and involves the individuals issues with complexity, not cop-outs.

Just accept it, this problem you have is more YOUR problem with what you are willing to accept rather than a problem with the writing itself. Things are explained and done in a rather good way as long as your willing to accept some flaws as any Sci-fi work will have.

 

[Arntor]

I got the feeling that this review was more of a whine-fest than anything >.> Definitely not Yahtzee's best piece of work...

By the way, why the hell should we be re-introduced to Raiden? Even if he wears a ninja suit and can cut down Gears with a vibrating sword, his face still makes me want to just punch him in the face. And that voice... maybe its just the US version, but he makes me laugh in the worst way every time his mouth opens. In my opinion, any MGS game that has that retarded asschild in it will most certainly always have a certain bad taste in my mouth >.< If what everything's being said goes true, then I'll stick to MGS3:SE as my all-time favorite... there will never be another like the original Snake. Never.


Anyways, I'm not sure if this has been realized or not, but there's been a lot of dirty naming going on here I mean, come on... Solid Snake, Liquid Snake, Solidius Snake, Naked Snake, and now we have Old Snake... Hell, why not just rename Raiden 'Trouser Snake' and finally give him a title that suits his actual level of intelligence?

How about Impotent Snake?

 

[Tempdude0]

And staying in the numbered format goes out the window. Weeeeee!

I even explained why one has more leeway, look at the post you claimed to read. I even laid it out all simple like...You know what, I'm not even going to bother going into a lengthy post, I'm just going to call you an idiot and be done with it.

You can't be bothered to respond to my points, you misunderstand what a catchall is but swing it around like it's your dancing partner, flaws in writing are not covered under suspension of disbelief, another term you seem to not understand, and to top it all off you keep referring to the EXPANDED universe, that's the term, and yet you know nothing of it or you would see how often "force, lol" is used.

Here, I'll even give you an example of that one, something you've yet to do. The Ylasmir, a strange and wonderful weasel looking creature that can block the force...because it can. No explanation is given, it just works. That's "Force, lol" and fall under the catchall. Get it?

The thing that really kills me is that all you would have to do is google some of these terms to get them and you can't even be bothered to do that. Dumb AND lazy, a potent combination.

Oh, and I can sound like a pretentious twat as well, watch:

Just accept it, this problem you have is more YOUR problem with what you are willing to accept. Things are explained and done in a rather mediocre way as long as your willing to accept some flaws as any Sci-fi work will have.


As for Impotent Snake, same problems. "The man is never up to the job." "He keeps folding like a wet blanket." "What a softy." "Hey look, he's fallen and can't get up."...Aw, I feel even worse now. Shower, I need a shower!

 

[Arntor]

Lightning Snake may work because I figured impotency has already been covered by "Old Snake". It's a subtle nod to premature ejaculation without drawing too much attention. 'Course, there are probably better words with the emphasis on speed, but I can't be arsed to find them right now.


I just like beating this dead horse.

 

[Tempdude0]

No, I actually like that one. It only lends itself to a few puns and works fairly well for what he was. "Always enthusiastic, but burns out too fast." "He can never go the distance." "It's the same every time, he gets going then two minutes later BAM!, he's on the floor and out cold."

And I'll take this dead horse beating over the "discussion" with whatsherface up there, though both are tantamount to the same thing...Well, at least this is entertaining.

 

[Tempdude0]

Ah crap, double post...Anyone know how to delete these things?

 

[TerraMGP]

Your right, I know nothing, I am not going into a SW D20 game set in the NJO era tomorrow, I just don't understand you, its not that your totally wrong and don't understand what I am trying to say. I am responding your just ignoring me, and I don't understand what the point of arguing is if your going to ignore me. You insult me just as much, you have been just as pretentious if not MORESO from the very beginning and your text walls frankly move around in circles. The Force is not a catchall in the expanded universe, its simply expanded upon. If you can't understand the difference then its no wonder you get confused so easily.

But lets get back to the core of the issue ok? Point out these freaking flaws in the writing ok? Point to where it is in the series that you think that actual flaws rest. Is it in the complexity? is it in the 'fluff?' what is it? Frankly from the looks of it your splitting hairs. Heck your making my point for me "It doesn't explain why the Ylasmir block the force' well ok fine, Ill grant you that if you grant me that the MGS series spends quite a bit of time making SURE you understand how things are supposed to work. So with starwars your complaint is that you don't get enough fluff, with MGS its that you get too much. That sounds more like a personal issue with your ability to accept what is presented to you because its too much or too little rather than any inherent problem with the writing. You have decided that 'this much information is acceptable, too much more and its overkill too much less and its just a catchall cop out'.

I find it funny that your trying to peg the whole pretentious thing on me, and even funnier that your trying to tell a SW fangirl she knows nothing about the expanded universe. But it doesn't matter. You just come here to post some confused psudo-intellectual drivel and make yourself feel like a big man anyways.

What really kills me is that whole phrase about accepting mediocre explanations for science fiction when your accusing me of being pretentious. You have no idea what your saying anymore, its just a thin veil to try and cover up the fact that you don't like the writing and you don't get it so it must be bad.

 

[GojiraX]

The second I played this game, I thought "If Yahtzee ever reviews this he's just going to piss all over it." So I'm truly shocked that he called the characters well-rounded.

As for the story being poor, if by "poor" he means "verbose to a tiresome degree" then huzzah. If he means "boring dull nonsense" then pfeh. Looking past the endless explanations and loose story threads being spun together, at least the core of every scene kept me interested in what was happening and maintained that there was a purpose to the whole thing.

 

[Arntor]

"It's the same every time, he gets going then two minutes later BAM! He's on the floor and out cold."

I love this one because I can imagine this in-game as two guards are having idle conversation with each other after they've been alerted about an intruder.

Some female NPC
"He came really quickly through the gates and then disappeared!"

 

[Tempdude0]

Uh, I talk about what you've said point by point as they come up through reading your overly long diatribes. I fail to see the "ignoring" in that. Oh, so you're going to grant me something that was already established, how big of you. Do go on...Though the force wasn't expanded upon, it was used as a deus ex machina catchall in certain series.

...You seem to be misunderstanding "fluff" fluff is extra information not related to core concepts integral to a series. It serves to flesh out characters and the world around them. It frequently is in no way related to plot of the game/book, but is there as an attempt to make the reader/game-player forget that their reading about/dealing with fictional characters. Otakons love of anime is fluff, Snakes military training is not. Medics odd tendancy to know about movies is fluff, Volgin being a pervert is not, wich is surprising. You throw around terms that I don't believe you fully understand.

So fangirl, give me solid example from the universe you so love. I did it and I'm only a fan in a few cases. References people, references. Saying something doesn't make it so. Use actual examples in your argument and I won't think so little of you.

Yeah, pseudo-intellectual is a great term. It means you don't get what I'm saying. It means that my language, rather unrefined because I don't feel like talking in a formal matter, is beyond your comprehension. This is YOUR problem, not mine. I may be overly verbose at times just like the Metal Gear Series, but I never claimed to be succinct. In fact, I've referred to all my responces as "rants" which by definition are long winded.

...And once again, I get the writing. It's just not good. It's not punchy, it's not insightful, it's not the pinnacle of writing...I referenced the writer of "Lady Chatterley's Lover" what more do you want in regards to my level of comprehension? Do you want to know I read War and Peace? What will convince her highness of my ability to "get" the writing, aside from having to LIKE it?

Also, keep in mind my comprehension is such that I can keep pace with even the most nonsensical thing you've said, and the biggest indicator that I know what I'm talking about and that you don't is that I've yet to fall back on terms like "pseudo-intellectual" or to ignore the parts of your argument I can't actually answer. There aren't any I can't, but that's not the point. I get your arguments, they just lack substance, much like the game you love so much.

Furthermore, I stated earlier that I loved, LOVED Metal Gear Solid 3. Now, even assuming that as a baseline for what I can understand, your ravings don't even compare to Kojimas writing. He may be a talkative bastard and I may not like all his works, but you hold no candle to him even on his worst days.

And once again you fail to address my points. I'm even setting them up in easy to respond format and you STILL can't do it. I even gave you an itemized list for gods sakes.




To Indigo_Dingo, wasn't the the character in escape from New York? Oh, and I apologize for earlier hostilities. I'm more irked at Terra than you. You managed to keep a more level head throughout the conversation. I still don't think you get what I was talking about, but I'm going to let that slide because you've been, if nothing else, rather polite.

As for the "fiction" aspect, of course all fiction is set apart from reality. It's the extent to which they're set apart that's the issue. If set too close, Supermen should not be showing up and if set too far nothing need be explained realistically because of so alien a world. In the case of things like MGS, CSI, and Law and Order, we must make allowances for the sake of plot and entertainment. This only extends so far. As an example, aliens shouldn't be showing up in the MGS series. I guess if it was done well enough I could run with it, but that's be one hell of a feat of writing. In CSI, none of the group should suddenly be able to go "punisher" on crooks without ramifications. This is what I was ranting about earlier.




As to Arntor, I like that line...Personally, I was going for the scenes where he gets "killed" in each game, like with the narrator doing a voice over, but I enjoy your example.

 

[shatnershaman]

OMFG! People don't like it when someone insults what they like! What next?! Needing food to live!