Zero Punctuation: The Last of Us

[A1]

[.

Wow this might actual be fun.

Firstly. it is bad etiquette to imply that the reason someone didn't like something is that the subject matter is beyond them.
The whole may people understand this, implied shame you're not one of them.
You don't know how i am could be a nuclear physicist or a games designer. i could work conflict resolution for the un. A professional writer, a doctor, aid work & army major.
could be more or less qualified then you so don't assume. (one of those is my real job BTW)

The fun part. I originality posted to say i found the review useful in my decision about buying the game. You asked me to justify you accuse me for not giving the game a fair trial. I explain why i didn't give the game a fair trial you tell me it's my right not to give give game a fair trial as long as i don't make statements judgments on it's quality. Forgetting it was you who asked me to make statements judging the games quality.
also like you're so holy i bet you make/laugh at twilight is shit jokes

And as for your closing statement that i found to be almost sexual it was deliciously ironic

beware the circle jerk. never go places where everyone agrees.
No i don't have to read/reply neither do you if you disagree then you can feel free to go somewhere else too.
Also surely its people who like the last of use who should go somewhere else as this is the comments from a video that doesn't like that game.
I came her to review the posted ZP can sometimes miss out details and clearly it's a much loved game. I wanted to know why . The results were useful, they reaffirmed my discussion.

Well that was fun.
Any other point you want to resolve just shout

Okay. There seems to be stuff to clear up. I don't know where most, if not all, of that stuff you just brought up is coming from.

I never implied that the subject matter was beyond you. It's possible that you might have felt like I was doing that but I wasn't and I didn't. I know that I don't know anything about you and I never implied or insinuated that I did. And I didn't assume anything. What I did was counter the arguments you made about humanity.

I never asked you to justify anything. I never accused you of not giving the game a fair trial. I only suggested that you might want to experience the game for yourself before making judgement calls about it. That was not an accusation. That was a suggestion and it was made after you had already established that you hadn't played the game.

I never asked you to make statements judging the games quality. In fact I never asked you to do anything.

You also seemed to indicate that what people were saying on these forums was bothering you. I made a suggestion based on that.

And while I don't speak for anyone else here I myself never said or implied that what anyone on these forums was saying was bothering me.


EDIT: And you seem to be making fun of at least one of the things I said. So you really don't seem to be in a position to accuse anyone of bad etiquette.

 

[Something Amyss]

Meh, I thought I was having a thoughtful conversation .. not just a rhetorical exercise with someone just shielding on cynisism ... you clearly didn't pay much attention to what I said..

I don't get why you feel the need to be disingenuous out of the box, but it makes me less interested in what you have to say.

I'm sorry that you see me criticising you for making up points on which to attack Yahztee as a defense of cynicism, but I'm beholden to honesty, and that wasn't honest. I don't enjoy Yahtzee's cynicism outside the context of it entertains me.

And again, nobody seems to mind his cynicism when it's a game they don't like. but whatever.

 

[Something Amyss]

you often tend to be here just to tell people how dumb and wrong they are being for having a certain opinion...

See? See right there? that's kind of my point. I'm not sure if you're lying or just incorrectly inferring, but that's simply not true. You are attacking a made-up point. You did this to Yahtzee, and you're doing it to me.
EDIT: and apparently, you know how wrong it is, since you've changed it since I clicked on the link.

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Meh, I thought I was having a thoughtful conversation .. not just a rhetorical exercise with someone just shielding on cynisism ... you clearly didn't pay much attention to what I said..

I don't get why you feel the need to be disingenuous out of the box, but it makes me less interested in what you have to say.

I'm sorry that you see me criticising you for making up points on which to attack Yahztee as a defense of cynicism, but I'm beholden to honesty, and that wasn't honest. I don't enjoy Yahtzee's cynicism outside the context of it entertains me.

And again, nobody seems to mind his cynicism when it's a game they don't like. but whatever.

you often tend to be here just to tell people how dumb and wrong they are being for having a certain opinion...

See? See right there? that's kind of my point. I'm not sure if you're lying or just incorrectly inferring, but that's simply not true. You are attacking a made-up point. You did this to Yahtzee, and you're doing it to me.
EDIT: and apparently, you know how wrong it is, since you've changed it since I clicked on the link.

Well, for one, that is what you are not getting, I am not attacking Yahtzee trying to make up fake points, I am providing enough context from his previous statements to back up that THIS critique in particular makes little sense and appears shallow in comparison to other episodes.
And about minding or not minding, there is a question of fairness and coherence, there have been episodes before when I've seen it happen and I do mind. Again he might not be subtle or extremely profound but I have always found the criticism he does DOES provide some form of insight, even under layers of twat jokes... This one, I'm left scratching my head.

I really wonder if there could have been anything this game could have done better to be seen in a kinder light, As I've repeatedly said, it seems that it includes MANY of the specifics that yahtzee often praises as good game design, but he seems to have overlooked them (even to the point of criticizing inaccurate information about the game). I'm sorry, but it appears to me that it's only natural to question what caused this contrast.

As I've said before, I'm not up in arms about it though, I don't expect him to change his mind or acknowledge the brilliance of the points that I am bringing up, but I am simply sharing why I believe his gauge of the game is quite off. In the same way that it is dumb that some people say "HEY YAHTZEE LOVEZ THIS GAME SO I WILL BUY IT" it is silly to believe that because he says so the game is worse, particularly in this case, where the opinions are so divided.

Moreover, additional to the expected ND contempt, it has become clear that yahtzee has been developing some form of console exclusive hatred. And I can't help but wonder if this is permeating into his views, becoming even more cynical and more like the archetype he used to ridicule about the "pc master race".

About how you act in the forum's, I have read many posts by you that are very critical but bring up little constructive criticism. Maybe it is because there is no way to really know -how- you said something, (It is very possible that I am being oversensitive too) but a lot of what you responded to me felt like you were simply dismissing the opinion based on specific details that were unimportant to the actual message (like pointing out spunkgargleweewee, which is undeniably a stupid term that I only mentioned as an explanation), not focusing on the fact that I was speaking about my experiences in the game as a whole in contrast to Yahtzee's rant. NOT picking point by point, but instead displaying components of it as a system that I felt contrasted heavily, and even contradicted, some of his views that seemed so absolute..

Additionally I have listed many components that I feel do make the game worse, there is no denying that there are many problems with TLoU even when you do judge it more positively. I am not trying to sugarcoat this as the best game ever, I am trying to discuss a more fair observation of the nuances of the game that anyone even mildly interested in it should know before taking this face value, since as i said before, unlike other episodes the balance of tough but fair here seem's off.

I would have loved a ruthlessly critical episode about TLOU making use of the profound points where this game has real issues, but instead it seemed like an uninspired rant nitpicking and downplaying all of it's structure. I don't REALLY doubt that Yahtzee played the game, but it is extremely disappointing for me that he put so very little thought into it. Of course this is infinitely subjective, and I know in the great scheme of things neither his opinion nor mine really make much of a difference. People saying it was a great review and that thanks to it they will not buy the game were never going to buy it, and people arguing how great it was still think it was great.
But it really is annoying for people to inform me that "well if you didn't like the game, you wouldn't have a problem with this episode bashing it", because that is completely beside my point. It has no importance and it isn't even true, I enjoy arguing about games, when I think they are good or bad. I have commented here when I feel the episode unjustly describes a game ( even jokingly ), or even defending specific aspects of games that I didn't even like that much as a whole.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to insult you in any way. I don't know if I did, maybe I inferred incorrectly. I do feel people tend to be incredibly dismissive online (because no-one really cares) but I apologize if I was.

I think it's enough of the last of us for a while though... I'm only thankful that he never reviewed Journey, because I'm sort of fearful of how that would have ended.

PS I did not change the post, it's still there.

 

[gridsleep]

So you have to watch out for that everything-proof shield?

I think those are the blokes who grew up and developed the code for God Mode. Which is how I think I would play this game. Were I to play it. Which I won't.

 

[Something Amyss]

I am not attacking Yahtzee trying to make up fake points

Again, not what I said. I said you were making up fake grounds to attack Yahtzee. Which you did. You attributed to him arguments not made in his video. That's dishonest. I addressed those, and I was suddenly defending cynicism or whatever.

PS I did not change the post, it's still there.

What it says now is not what it said in my inbox or what it said when I first loaded the page.

Anyhow, I'm probably not gonna respond anymore, I've seen you around the forums and you often tend to be here just to tell people how dumb and wrong they are being for having a certain opinion... I don't really find that interesting.

Which was untrue in the first place, became:

Anyhow, I'm probably not gonna respond anymore, I've seen you around the forums and you often tend to be here just to tell people how silly their opinions are... I don't really find that interesting.

Which is still sort of untrue, but definitely a change. Saying you didn't change it is a flat-out lie. Do I need to screencap it for you? I still have the notification with the original version in my inbox; it's where I got the original version for this post.

 

[gjkbgt]

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christ did you read this before you posted it think yep that made all the points in a concise manner and wasn't a wasted of my time.
I'm guessing you hear this a lot but still, wow that's a long post

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

I am not attacking Yahtzee trying to make up fake points

Again, not what I said. I said you were making up fake grounds to attack Yahtzee. Which you did. You attributed to him arguments not made in his video. That's dishonest. I addressed those, and I was suddenly defending cynicism or whatever.

PS I did not change the post, it's still there.

What it says now is not what it said in my inbox or what it said when I first loaded the page.

Anyhow, I'm probably not gonna respond anymore, I've seen you around the forums and you often tend to be here just to tell people how dumb and wrong they are being for having a certain opinion... I don't really find that interesting.

Which was untrue in the first place, became:

Anyhow, I'm probably not gonna respond anymore, I've seen you around the forums and you often tend to be here just to tell people how silly their opinions are... I don't really find that interesting.

Which is still sort of untrue, but definitely a change. Saying you didn't change it is a flat-out lie. Do I need to screencap it for you? I still have the notification with the original version in my inbox; it's where I got the original version for this post.

Well, You see there? You are Ignoring the answers which addressed your concerns and picking apart my post and trying to invalidate the reasoning by focusing on points that have no importance towards the message (or anything). Speak about dishonesty.

As I mentioned, all you need is to extrapolate as a smart person (that's why i am not particularly drawing out the exact points, because I expect most people here would understand the analysis), and realize that when I picked those particular points to contrast yahtzee I was presenting them in a systemic approach that would display how his criticism doesn't hold ground throughout the complete game view.

If you don't believe me, play the game, or watch the video someone posted a few pages back clearly showing how his assessment on Ellie's AI uselessness in EVERY aspect of the game is fully debunked, and that is just one of the examples.

And then you call me a liar. I honestly didn't even remember I had made such a small adjustment in my post (probably with the direct purpose of being less insulting) but you managed to insult me anyway. I didn't even notice the difference until you posted them side by side.
I ask you, what do I gain by editing it so subtly and lying about it? Why would you assume I lied about it if it is out in the open? I wrote a whole post trying to soothe the situation because it appeared to me that the conversation could turn aggressive, but you even managed to rip that apart and take away only what was offensive to you (and insult back). It seems to me that you are WAY to defensive about this whole thing, and that is exactly what I wanted to divert.
But hey, whatever, call me a dishonest liar if it helps you invalidate my points without engaging in any thoughtful discussion.

.

christ did you read this before you posted it think yep that made all the points in a concise manner and wasn't a wasted of my time.
I'm guessing you hear this a lot but still, wow that's a long post

I'm sorry, I do tend to write a lot, particularly when I feel an interesting discussion can be made, I suppose it's a habit of mine. I'm sorry if it wastes your time or if you find it uninteresting. You are always free to stop reading at any point.

 

[Mert Matthews]

i don't usually get bothered by when Yahtzee tears apart a game but hes definitely not giving this game a fair video. Last of Us is a marvel of story telling, visual design, and combat. Each encounter is a struggle to survive and the game looks gorgeous. The characters don't get dehumanized as much as they become monsters like everyone they've killed, especially Joel. His actions at the end of the game make everyone who has died along the way meaningless. I strongly recommend everyone play this game and not let this video tarnish the games image. As an Xbox fan i wish this game was on my console.

Ehm... excuse me? Everything you mentioned have been done better. The game has a huge fundamental flaw and most people ignore it because it is so common which comes to your first point: The game is trying to be a movie, except the part at the very beginning which introduced the main character, everything was just like a movie in fact i got more enjoyment when watching the game instead of playing it which is not games are all about, in fact i couldn't finish the game because i was feeling i could instead watch a movie. Visual design: What? I mean yes the environment etc is kind of impressive but it is simply a tool for the atmosphere, honestly i think vampire bloodlines had better visuals because they were there to serve the atmosphere not to be pretty sky boxes. Combat: Combat? What combat? The combat was taken out of other games such as MGS, typical cover based shooting which is fine because they wanted to focus on the story. I think it was average choice in mechanics for combat meaning it doesn't worth a praise. You know, the game gives you the illusion of "Survival" etc but i have a question: Do you ever get hungry in the game? Ever forced to kill someone just to eat them? That would be survival.As it stands it is survival in by hollywood standards which brings us to our final point, dehumanisation or the character development: I liked the development they get but compared to fallout this is victorian era nobility. Each time i see the characters behave "inhumanely" I get reminded of how i killed dozens of raider groups just to see their heads explode and their friends flee with crippled legs before being set on fire. So i think the game is just trying to be a movie which is why it does not deserve a reward. I think the movie is average but as a game i think it is working in the wrong department

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, You see there? You are Ignoring the answers which addressed your concerns and picking apart my post and trying to invalidate the reasoning by focusing on points that have no importance towards the message (or anything). Speak about dishonesty.

You lied. Don't talk to me about dishonesty. I stopped paying attention to your concerns as I said I would, because you approached me in a dishonest fashion. You misrepresented me, my motives, Yahtzee, potentially his motives, and then you flat out lied there.

Why should I pay attention to your concerns if you can't give me the basic courtesy of being truthful? I did EXACTLY what I said I would. That's not dishonest. Sorry.

If you want me to pay attention to "the message," don't wrap it up in lies and mistruths and then insist it's irrelevant. Your entire argument was dishonest. The fact that you're dishonest about the larger picture is most certainly relevant to that.

You could have even just admitted you edited your post, but no. Not even that. Not even that one documentable, verifiable thing.

In fact, the number of times I've had to explain to you that I'm not saying/doing what you claim I am makes me think this is intentional.

 

[Something Amyss]

Ehm... excuse me? Everything you mentioned have been done better.

Harry Potter Syndrome. Sure, everything has been done before and done better, but this is the one we will latch on to because ponies.

(Not that Harry Potter is a bad series; I find it highly entertaining, but it's not the original masterpiece people make it out to be. It's basically big because it hit with a bunch of people who don't normally read this sort of thing)

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Well, You see there? You are Ignoring the answers which addressed your concerns and picking apart my post and trying to invalidate the reasoning by focusing on points that have no importance towards the message (or anything). Speak about dishonesty.

You lied. Don't talk to me about dishonesty. I stopped paying attention to your concerns as I said I would, because you approached me in a dishonest fashion. You misrepresented me, my motives, Yahtzee, potentially his motives, and then you flat out lied there.

Why should I pay attention to your concerns if you can't give me the basic courtesy of being truthful? I did EXACTLY what I said I would. That's not dishonest. Sorry.

If you want me to pay attention to "the message," don't wrap it up in lies and mistruths and then insist it's irrelevant. Your entire argument was dishonest. The fact that you're dishonest about the larger picture is most certainly relevant to that.

You could have even just admitted you edited your post, but no. Not even that. Not even that one documentable, verifiable thing.

In fact, the number of times I've had to explain to you that I'm not saying/doing what you claim I am makes me think this is intentional.

And yet again, although I DID actually let you know that I DID edit the post to make it less aggressive, you insist that I lied... I made a mistake, I forgot about editing the comment in that section, and I apologized, I can't do more than that. I often edit posts mainly for typoes and errors, and I sometimes change the phrasing of things because they simply sounds wrong. I do it everywhere without any intention of deceiving you or anyone, only make it more coherent given that the medium allows it ( and in this case, making the comment less potentially insulting to you).

However, you are completely justifying my assertion, you are making this personal, eliminating the interesting discussion that could be had under the willfully insulting pretense of me not being honest, with out ever really delving into the points that were made here initially. You obviously threw out any intention of communicating, so I suppose there is no point on me trying.

 

[gjkbgt]

[.

Hay no prob man.
But being concise is an important part of communication.
I like that you have a lot to say but your writing literally pages of text.
An't nobody got time for dat
would like to read your comments ad discuss but literally don't have time.
if you want to make comments more accessible try add regal breaks.
make it so you can read any point independent of the others.
And remember there should only be at most three points anyone needs to take away from your comment
e.g. from mine: Not getting at you, comments should be more concise (& a little advice on who to do that)

 

[Something Amyss]

And yet again, although I DID actually let you know that I DID edit the post to make it less aggressive

You changed your story after I demonstrated I could prove it. Given both versions of the line were disingenuous to begin with, given your claims against me and Yahztee were both disingenuous, why should I believe you now?

You can say what you want, but it's hard to have an interesting discussion with someone who makes strawman criticisms. You yourself already tried to pull out, saying you were disinterested and then accused me of sticking up for cynicism, which was a lie in itself. You already claimed this was uninteresting AND you tried to make up an argument as an excuse to back out. Where would the interesting points be from that? Please, enlighten me. And try and do it without lying yet again.

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

And yet again, although I DID actually let you know that I DID edit the post to make it less aggressive

You changed your story after I demonstrated I could prove it. Given both versions of the line were disingenuous to begin with, given your claims against me and Yahztee were both disingenuous, why should I believe you now?

You can say what you want, but it's hard to have an interesting discussion with someone who makes strawman criticisms. You yourself already tried to pull out, saying you were disinterested and then accused me of sticking up for cynicism, which was a lie in itself. You already claimed this was uninteresting AND you tried to make up an argument as an excuse to back out. Where would the interesting points be from that? Please, enlighten me. And try and do it without lying yet again.

You know, It's enough. You are clearly trying to get me to insult you back but I simply won't. I directly accused you of nitpicking the post and discrediting it without really facing any of the actual criticism to yahtzee's analysis. And you did, and you are doing it again. It is exactly the reason why I was not keen on continuing the discussion with you, because you are yourself selecting incomplete ideas liberally to disprove my points ABOUT THE CRITICISM OF THIS GAME, NOT YOU, NOT YAHTZEE.

You are ridiculously clinging to the idea that I LIED! OH! the pain I've caused with that TERRRIBLE LIE! At most I changed the phrasing of an idea to your benefit without altering the content in the slightest. I'm not about to get pulled into a childish discussion of if you should believe me or not, I sincerely don't give a damn about your approval.

It seems painfully obvious that the people that have actually played the game are really finding that this episode's commentary is weak and incoherent with HIS previous work. And you are clearly not providing any sort of constructive observations either.

I will not humor your melodramatic trolling any further.

 

[Something Amyss]

You know, It's enough. You are clearly trying to get me to insult you back but I simply won't.

You already did. Remember, I still have the message in my inbox. Were that my goal, I would have got my way already. And Nothing came of it. Huh. Looks like you're falsely ascribing motivations to me.

For the record, that's how we got into this mess. I addressed your criticisms of Yahtzee, many of which were flat-out false, as you accused me of being a Yahtzee apologist as a cop-out. You haven'tgiven me a single reason to take your argument on merit, because your argument is based on false premises. You attribute things to Yahtzee that he didn't say and likely didn't even imply. You attribute to me things I didn't say, mean and DEFINITELY didn't imply.

You can call this nitpicking all you want, but even that's a lie. I've explained to you exactly what the issue is, and you're pretending it's something else. If you don't want to reply, fine. This was going nowhere from the minute you decided to accuse me of motivations I didn't have.

And to further my point:

You are ridiculously clinging to the idea that I LIED! OH! the pain I've caused with that TERRRIBLE LIE!

That's what we call a strawman.

 

[Vicioussama]

Couldn't agree more about the AI not triggering any of the enemies and can just run around and be seen. It definitely breaks gameplay and immersion. Though, ya, having them be a cause for alarm would piss off so many gamers. Definitely might have been better if you could tell them to sit quiet at a place, but that would also kinda make even having them pointless as every area would be "tell the person to sit in a corner safe, go kill all the people, sneak them by." They'd have to do more to really make it worth bringing them around for some added challenge or something.

I don't agree with the smoke bomb bits. You can find many uses for them, especially on higher difficulties. Oh, about the higher difficulties, AI doesn't seem any different. At least between hard and survivor. I didn't try normal or easy. I never choose anything but the hardest difficulty possible in the first play through just for the challenge.

 

[A1]

@ gjkbgt

I realize that this is at least somewhat belated and possibly redundant but it's just to help make sure that the point I made with my edit to my last post gets across.

In the last post you made in response to one of mine you seemed to be needlessly making fun of at least one or two of the things I said. So you really don't seem to be in any position to be accusing anyone of bad etiquette.

 

[Undeadpool]

So people are sick to death of happy endings where everyone and everything gets resolved and you're the big, strong, strapping Hero of the People defending goodness and rightness...so a game comes along that's LITERALLY the exact opposite from beginning to end, and now THAT'S too much of a cliche/downer...and people wonder why no one even TRIES on the internet.