Zero Punctuation: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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Those crazy fans of Goldeneye are absolutely silly to hold the game in such high regard today when it's not even the best FPS on the N64. Perfect Dark was and always will be the better of the two games. Nostalgia is a dangerous thing.
I'm afraid that I don't quite understand how they're "showing their cheat sheet" with this game. Ocarina of time was always available for you to play. If re-releasing counts, then wouldn't the special edition that came with Wind Waker be a cheat sheet?
Besides, I don't really get why people say that it is treading over the same ground over and over again. Sure the basic bones of the story are the same, but it's handled in a new and interesting way each time. Wind Waker touched on themes of realizing one's true potential and power while Twilight Princess had the light world/dark world dichotomy that was present in other Zelda games extend to the protagonist himself.
Every plot can be boiled down to simplistic terms. For example: A rich guy gets thrown into prison, but then fights his way out and realizes that he could use his affluence to help people instead of being a self-centered douche. He uses the money left over from his dad's business and his company's top secret projects to build a super suit with plenty of gadgets. He then goes ahead and fights crime. Along the way, he gets some help from his butler and a lady friend who he has a secret crush on. He eventually has to fight the main villian, who was actually his mentor the entire time. At the very end, we get a small clue about what is coming in the next movie.
Did I just describe Iron Man or Batman Begins?
TLDR, just because a series of games can be boiled down to basic plot details doesn't mean that it's just rehashing it if the games themselves are dealing with different issues, and Yahtzee's point that they're showing off their "cheat sheet" doesn't make any sense.
Besides, I don't really get why people say that it is treading over the same ground over and over again. Sure the basic bones of the story are the same, but it's handled in a new and interesting way each time. Wind Waker touched on themes of realizing one's true potential and power while Twilight Princess had the light world/dark world dichotomy that was present in other Zelda games extend to the protagonist himself.
Every plot can be boiled down to simplistic terms. For example: A rich guy gets thrown into prison, but then fights his way out and realizes that he could use his affluence to help people instead of being a self-centered douche. He uses the money left over from his dad's business and his company's top secret projects to build a super suit with plenty of gadgets. He then goes ahead and fights crime. Along the way, he gets some help from his butler and a lady friend who he has a secret crush on. He eventually has to fight the main villian, who was actually his mentor the entire time. At the very end, we get a small clue about what is coming in the next movie.
Did I just describe Iron Man or Batman Begins?
TLDR, just because a series of games can be boiled down to basic plot details doesn't mean that it's just rehashing it if the games themselves are dealing with different issues, and Yahtzee's point that they're showing off their "cheat sheet" doesn't make any sense.
Well, to elaborate on why I think the stories are more than superficial changes, I'm going to half to elaborate on the backstory and plot of most of the series. So...Abandon4093 said:
Warning: The following post contains a description of every console Zelda's plot, so it's spoiler-y and really long.
The Legend of Zelda featured a nonlinear open world with 8 dungeons. Ganon, wielder of the Triforce of Power, wants to complete his golden triangle collection, so Zelda split the Triforce of Wisdom into 8 pieces and hid them from Ganon in these dungeons. Link collects them, goes to Ganon's Lair, and kills him. No, seriously, Ganon is killed off in the first game.
The game introduces the three main characters, the setting, and two of the Triforce pieces.
Adventure of Link's backstory is pretty neat. Long ago, an unnamed prince of Hyrule was angry that he did not inherit the Triforce when the king died. An evil unnamed wizard told him that his sister, Princess Zelda, knew where the Triforce of Courage was hidden. When she told him nothing, the prince had the wizard cast her into a magical sleep. Afterwards, he repented, but only the Triforce can break the spell, so there's nothing he can do to help her. In her honor, he orders that every princess of Hyrule will be named "Zelda". Fortunately for the first Princess Zelda, the spell also kept her alive. Link goes to collect the Triforce to wake her up. Ganon's minions know a spell to bring him back, but they need Link's blood, so they're constantly trying to kill him. Ganon isn't actually in the game, he's just the game over screen. This is actually a sidescroller. It introduces the Zelda lineage (although Skyward Sword reveals it dates back longer than Hyrule itself. She's just not a princess in Skyloft) and the third Triforce piece.
A Link to the Past, the next "normal" game in the series, introduces the standard structure, sometimes called "The Legend". You get three mcguffins, obtain the Master Sword (in its first appearance), go do...[sub]stuff[/sub], and then fight Ganon. I don't really think this should count as a formula for two reasons. First of all, it was only used in three other games. Secondly, the part between getting the Master Sword and defeating Ganon is incredibly vague. How many post-Master Sword dungeons Link needs to clear, when Zelda is imprisoned, when she's rescued, and how much help she provides is inconsistent. Since "The Legend" is kind of vague at the end and only happens in four of the fourteen (soon to be fifteen) games, I don't really think it's strict enough to be a formula. It's more like...a guideline. Anyway, ALTTP also introduces the Sacred/Golden Land (which Ganon has corrupted into Dark World), another part of Hyrule's backstory (there was a civil war for the Triforce, the king had the sages/wise men seal off the Sacred Realm/Golden Land so no one could get it) and the concept of Ganon stealing the spotlight from another villain for the climax (which he does again in Oracles, Four Swords Adventure, and Twilight Princess).
Ocarina of Time, originally conceived as a prequel to A Link to the Past (but these days, who knows what order they go in?) was the first game to follow A Link to the Past's structure...get the spiritual stones, obtain the master sword. Basically, if it's still the prequel, then the ending explains how Ganon got into the Sacred Realm/Golden Land/Dark World. Zelda takes a semi-active role in this one (for the first time). It's the first game they show Ganon in his human form, and it introduces Hyrule's creation story and several other cultures (The Gerudo and Goron are new here...I think. The Zora aren't new, but this it the first time we got to see their city).
Majora's Mask is the direct sequel to Ocarina. The Triforce, Ganon, and the Master Sword are nowhere to be seen, and Zelda just gets a flashback cameo. Link is stuck in a time loop and has to stop a skull kid wearing an evil mask from pulling the moon into an Termina, an alternate universe equivalent of Hyrule. It's populated by Gorons, Zora, Gerudo, and Hylian Clones, but it is almost nothing like Hyrule culturally. (Well, the Gorons and Gerudo are similar to their Hyrule counterparts). Link accomplishes his goal by using magical masks that he gets from dead people to shapeshift into them. Yeah, this one is kind of creepy, and despite re-using almost everything from Ocarina, is the runner up for most unique game in the franchise from a gameplay perspective, and definitely the most unique in story.
The Wind Waker takes place in a happy post-apocalypse Hyrule. It begins by recapping the backstory of A Link to the Past and the events of Ocarina of Time (somewhat incorrectly...it's a legend in their world now, so it's been distorted a bit. It could have easily merged with some tales, and others could have been forgotten. This is why the timeline discussion is a little fuzzy...if the people in that world can't keep track of it, how can we?) Anyway, Ganon came back, and Link wasn't there, so the gods flood Hyrule to keep him away from the Triforce. A century-or-so later, Zelda, who's captain of a pirate ship and is actually named Tetra, takes a direct role in helping you throughout your quest to save Link's sister, and, afterwards, on you quest to kill Ganon. Ganon actually gets some much-needed development in this one, but his plan hasn't changed much. Like Ocarina, Ganon kidnaps Tetra near the end to obtain the Triforce of Wisdom. Unlike Ocarina, she is rescued before the battle with Ganon, picks up the light arrows, and helps you kill him. Again. Its story is similar to Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past, but it concludes that story arc. Old Hyrule, Ganon, the Master Sword, and the Triforce are gone, and it looks like it's for good this time, 'cause the handheld sequels (Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks) seem to be moving the story along.
I haven't played Four Swords Adventure, so I can't go into as much detail here. Basically, it's where the Four Sword arc from the handhelds melds with the Ganon-wants-to-conquer-Hyrule arc from the consoles. Also, it appears to be the backstory for Ganon (Maybe. It talks about him finding the Trident that he uses in older games) and Shadow Link. As far as I know, he's trying to conquer the good old fashioned way and the Triforce doesn't even make an appearance (which adds to the backstory possibility, if Ganon doesn't know about it yet). If I understand it correctly, Vaati (the villain from Minish Cap and the Four Swords) is killed off in this one. So this one gets rid of one villain and possibly explaining the roots of two others. Maybe.
[sub]Disclaimer: If any time line theorists are reading this, I repeat, I have not played this one. I got my summary from a quick read at tvtropes. I know this is a particularly debated game when it comes to its place in the timeline. I won't have a final conclusion until I play it myself; I'm only reporting what I read. [/sub]
Twilight Princess is basically the reason that the split-timeline theory exists. Well, actually, that's not quite right...the split timeline exists because Aonuma says so, but Twilight Princess is the only time it's needed. It's a post Ocarina of Time Zelda game that contradicts A Link to the Past's backstory (Ganon is sealed into the Twilight Realm instead of the Sacred Realm/Golden Land/Dark World) and, if it weren't for the split timeline, would do the same for Ocarina's ending (He's sealed away before he can conquer the kingdom, and, again, in a different dimension). It's the only game that is pretty much impossible to fit well into a single timeline. In addition to practically confirming that there's two timelines, it also expands on that war from A Link to the Past's backstory. A tribe tried to capture the Triforce using their dark magic. They were banished into the Twilight Realm for this. (They are speculated to be Gerudo, who are absent from the game). Their weapon, the Fused Shadow, is an important plot device for the game. Most of the plot deals with Zant, king of the Twilight Realm, invading and conquering Hyrule. Zelda (who's only still a princess because a demonic invasion is slightly more important than a coronation) isn't even kidnapped; she's under house arrest in her own damn castle, which is why she isn't quite as active as Tetra. Ganon becomes a footnote in the story about halfway through, and he isn't active until the final dungeon. He does have the exact same motivation as A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time here, but that was done on purpose. Twilight Princess is suppose to be like Ocarina of Time. Skyward Sword is apparently going to radically change the series again, just like Ocarina of Time did so many years ago, and both Nintendo and its fans wanted one more game like it before the next era began. Personally, I thought Zant's part of the story was more interesting, but I get their reasoning behind the finale. The Wind Waker was the conclusion of Ocarina's story arc in-universe (in the Adult timeline anyway
), but Twilight Princess was the conclusion in spirit.
Yes, The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess have similarities to Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past. However, both are conclusions of that story arc (one literally, one spiritually), and the differences are not just superficial. Both the obvious changes (flood and pirates, wolf and demon army) and the partners' subplots are much more than superficial changes, and each console game expands the universe--either by elaborating on the backstory (expect to see a lot of that in Skyward Sword), or by moving the story forward drastically, like Wind Waker.
I already discussed why I didn't think "the Legend" held up as a formula, but I'd like to elaborate on Ganon's part. I see the similarity in Ganon's plans as a character flaw, not a writing flaw. The Triforce isn't just part of Link, Zelda, and Ganon's backstories, it's the core of their characters. Link is courage incarnate. He doesn't care what's in his way, or even if it's his world that is in trouble, he will save the day. He will accept all calls to heroism. Zelda's wisdom allows her to be a good leader, whether it's knowing when to surrender to a demonic invasion in Twilight Princess, planning ahead to stop Ganon in the first game, or simply being a good captain in The Wind Waker. Likewise, Ganon is defined by his power. He plans like a warrior. He'll defeat Zelda and take the Triforce of Wisdom, then he'll defeat Link and take the Triforce of Courage. The details change, his approach changes a little, but that is the core of his plan because power is the core of his character. When you look at it from his perspective, they aren't bad plans either, especially considering he consistently comes closer to victory than any other recurring video game villain I can think of.
Where many see a cliched formula, I see a persistent villain and a constantly expanding continuity. So, yes, I can say it's more than superficial changes.
Also, I hope you enjoyed the read. I went into a lot more detail than I originally planned.
The game introduces the three main characters, the setting, and two of the Triforce pieces.
Adventure of Link's backstory is pretty neat. Long ago, an unnamed prince of Hyrule was angry that he did not inherit the Triforce when the king died. An evil unnamed wizard told him that his sister, Princess Zelda, knew where the Triforce of Courage was hidden. When she told him nothing, the prince had the wizard cast her into a magical sleep. Afterwards, he repented, but only the Triforce can break the spell, so there's nothing he can do to help her. In her honor, he orders that every princess of Hyrule will be named "Zelda". Fortunately for the first Princess Zelda, the spell also kept her alive. Link goes to collect the Triforce to wake her up. Ganon's minions know a spell to bring him back, but they need Link's blood, so they're constantly trying to kill him. Ganon isn't actually in the game, he's just the game over screen. This is actually a sidescroller. It introduces the Zelda lineage (although Skyward Sword reveals it dates back longer than Hyrule itself. She's just not a princess in Skyloft) and the third Triforce piece.
A Link to the Past, the next "normal" game in the series, introduces the standard structure, sometimes called "The Legend". You get three mcguffins, obtain the Master Sword (in its first appearance), go do...[sub]stuff[/sub], and then fight Ganon. I don't really think this should count as a formula for two reasons. First of all, it was only used in three other games. Secondly, the part between getting the Master Sword and defeating Ganon is incredibly vague. How many post-Master Sword dungeons Link needs to clear, when Zelda is imprisoned, when she's rescued, and how much help she provides is inconsistent. Since "The Legend" is kind of vague at the end and only happens in four of the fourteen (soon to be fifteen) games, I don't really think it's strict enough to be a formula. It's more like...a guideline. Anyway, ALTTP also introduces the Sacred/Golden Land (which Ganon has corrupted into Dark World), another part of Hyrule's backstory (there was a civil war for the Triforce, the king had the sages/wise men seal off the Sacred Realm/Golden Land so no one could get it) and the concept of Ganon stealing the spotlight from another villain for the climax (which he does again in Oracles, Four Swords Adventure, and Twilight Princess).
Ocarina of Time, originally conceived as a prequel to A Link to the Past (but these days, who knows what order they go in?) was the first game to follow A Link to the Past's structure...get the spiritual stones, obtain the master sword. Basically, if it's still the prequel, then the ending explains how Ganon got into the Sacred Realm/Golden Land/Dark World. Zelda takes a semi-active role in this one (for the first time). It's the first game they show Ganon in his human form, and it introduces Hyrule's creation story and several other cultures (The Gerudo and Goron are new here...I think. The Zora aren't new, but this it the first time we got to see their city).
Majora's Mask is the direct sequel to Ocarina. The Triforce, Ganon, and the Master Sword are nowhere to be seen, and Zelda just gets a flashback cameo. Link is stuck in a time loop and has to stop a skull kid wearing an evil mask from pulling the moon into an Termina, an alternate universe equivalent of Hyrule. It's populated by Gorons, Zora, Gerudo, and Hylian Clones, but it is almost nothing like Hyrule culturally. (Well, the Gorons and Gerudo are similar to their Hyrule counterparts). Link accomplishes his goal by using magical masks that he gets from dead people to shapeshift into them. Yeah, this one is kind of creepy, and despite re-using almost everything from Ocarina, is the runner up for most unique game in the franchise from a gameplay perspective, and definitely the most unique in story.
The Wind Waker takes place in a happy post-apocalypse Hyrule. It begins by recapping the backstory of A Link to the Past and the events of Ocarina of Time (somewhat incorrectly...it's a legend in their world now, so it's been distorted a bit. It could have easily merged with some tales, and others could have been forgotten. This is why the timeline discussion is a little fuzzy...if the people in that world can't keep track of it, how can we?) Anyway, Ganon came back, and Link wasn't there, so the gods flood Hyrule to keep him away from the Triforce. A century-or-so later, Zelda, who's captain of a pirate ship and is actually named Tetra, takes a direct role in helping you throughout your quest to save Link's sister, and, afterwards, on you quest to kill Ganon. Ganon actually gets some much-needed development in this one, but his plan hasn't changed much. Like Ocarina, Ganon kidnaps Tetra near the end to obtain the Triforce of Wisdom. Unlike Ocarina, she is rescued before the battle with Ganon, picks up the light arrows, and helps you kill him. Again. Its story is similar to Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past, but it concludes that story arc. Old Hyrule, Ganon, the Master Sword, and the Triforce are gone, and it looks like it's for good this time, 'cause the handheld sequels (Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks) seem to be moving the story along.
I haven't played Four Swords Adventure, so I can't go into as much detail here. Basically, it's where the Four Sword arc from the handhelds melds with the Ganon-wants-to-conquer-Hyrule arc from the consoles. Also, it appears to be the backstory for Ganon (Maybe. It talks about him finding the Trident that he uses in older games) and Shadow Link. As far as I know, he's trying to conquer the good old fashioned way and the Triforce doesn't even make an appearance (which adds to the backstory possibility, if Ganon doesn't know about it yet). If I understand it correctly, Vaati (the villain from Minish Cap and the Four Swords) is killed off in this one. So this one gets rid of one villain and possibly explaining the roots of two others. Maybe.
[sub]Disclaimer: If any time line theorists are reading this, I repeat, I have not played this one. I got my summary from a quick read at tvtropes. I know this is a particularly debated game when it comes to its place in the timeline. I won't have a final conclusion until I play it myself; I'm only reporting what I read. [/sub]
Twilight Princess is basically the reason that the split-timeline theory exists. Well, actually, that's not quite right...the split timeline exists because Aonuma says so, but Twilight Princess is the only time it's needed. It's a post Ocarina of Time Zelda game that contradicts A Link to the Past's backstory (Ganon is sealed into the Twilight Realm instead of the Sacred Realm/Golden Land/Dark World) and, if it weren't for the split timeline, would do the same for Ocarina's ending (He's sealed away before he can conquer the kingdom, and, again, in a different dimension). It's the only game that is pretty much impossible to fit well into a single timeline. In addition to practically confirming that there's two timelines, it also expands on that war from A Link to the Past's backstory. A tribe tried to capture the Triforce using their dark magic. They were banished into the Twilight Realm for this. (They are speculated to be Gerudo, who are absent from the game). Their weapon, the Fused Shadow, is an important plot device for the game. Most of the plot deals with Zant, king of the Twilight Realm, invading and conquering Hyrule. Zelda (who's only still a princess because a demonic invasion is slightly more important than a coronation) isn't even kidnapped; she's under house arrest in her own damn castle, which is why she isn't quite as active as Tetra. Ganon becomes a footnote in the story about halfway through, and he isn't active until the final dungeon. He does have the exact same motivation as A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time here, but that was done on purpose. Twilight Princess is suppose to be like Ocarina of Time. Skyward Sword is apparently going to radically change the series again, just like Ocarina of Time did so many years ago, and both Nintendo and its fans wanted one more game like it before the next era began. Personally, I thought Zant's part of the story was more interesting, but I get their reasoning behind the finale. The Wind Waker was the conclusion of Ocarina's story arc in-universe (in the Adult timeline anyway
), but Twilight Princess was the conclusion in spirit. Yes, The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess have similarities to Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past. However, both are conclusions of that story arc (one literally, one spiritually), and the differences are not just superficial. Both the obvious changes (flood and pirates, wolf and demon army) and the partners' subplots are much more than superficial changes, and each console game expands the universe--either by elaborating on the backstory (expect to see a lot of that in Skyward Sword), or by moving the story forward drastically, like Wind Waker.
I already discussed why I didn't think "the Legend" held up as a formula, but I'd like to elaborate on Ganon's part. I see the similarity in Ganon's plans as a character flaw, not a writing flaw. The Triforce isn't just part of Link, Zelda, and Ganon's backstories, it's the core of their characters. Link is courage incarnate. He doesn't care what's in his way, or even if it's his world that is in trouble, he will save the day. He will accept all calls to heroism. Zelda's wisdom allows her to be a good leader, whether it's knowing when to surrender to a demonic invasion in Twilight Princess, planning ahead to stop Ganon in the first game, or simply being a good captain in The Wind Waker. Likewise, Ganon is defined by his power. He plans like a warrior. He'll defeat Zelda and take the Triforce of Wisdom, then he'll defeat Link and take the Triforce of Courage. The details change, his approach changes a little, but that is the core of his plan because power is the core of his character. When you look at it from his perspective, they aren't bad plans either, especially considering he consistently comes closer to victory than any other recurring video game villain I can think of.
Where many see a cliched formula, I see a persistent villain and a constantly expanding continuity. So, yes, I can say it's more than superficial changes.
Also, I hope you enjoyed the read. I went into a lot more detail than I originally planned.
Excellent Post. Ocarina of Time, and Perfect Dark, were both excellent games. I sadly never got a chance to play Goldeneye, which is why I keep hoping for a port. I just hope the team that does the port doesn't screw it up. The auto aim is crap in the Xbox 360 version of PD, and random number generators hold far to much control over whether your live or die on some levels, like the Carrington Institute Defense level. Whether 1 or 4 guards with super shields happen to spawn in a place you need to run through seems to be entirely random.Squilookle said:
But I digress. Those games on the N64, kicked ass. And the visuals were so colorful back then...even with bad graphics, they actually look better in many ways, just because of the colors.
See, I always thought the main difference between OoT and TP was that in TP they actually remembered to make it fun.
Because I never, ever thought OoT was fun.
I love the Zelda games. I've always loved the Zelda games. I still love the Zelda games. Skyward Sword is one of a grand total of two games coming out the rest of this year that I'm likely to bother and pick up while they're still full price. I just never could get into OoT.
LttP and WW are two of my favorite games of all time, but I just couldn't get into OoT. I didn't like it when it first came out. I didn't like it years latter when I forced myself to finish it. I didn't even like it when I realized WW was friggin' awesome and 3D Zelda games could totally be great so I gave it one more try. It seems pretty obvious at this point that if I didn't like it after all that, I sure as fuck won't like it with a tiny screen, annoying little buttons and a headache added to the mix.
Because I never, ever thought OoT was fun.
I love the Zelda games. I've always loved the Zelda games. I still love the Zelda games. Skyward Sword is one of a grand total of two games coming out the rest of this year that I'm likely to bother and pick up while they're still full price. I just never could get into OoT.
LttP and WW are two of my favorite games of all time, but I just couldn't get into OoT. I didn't like it when it first came out. I didn't like it years latter when I forced myself to finish it. I didn't even like it when I realized WW was friggin' awesome and 3D Zelda games could totally be great so I gave it one more try. It seems pretty obvious at this point that if I didn't like it after all that, I sure as fuck won't like it with a tiny screen, annoying little buttons and a headache added to the mix.
next zelda game i play link is being named fuck me then after that thief(cookie for if you know were it's referenced from)
even as a zelda fan i could honestly care less about the existence of this remake. It's a fine game but really it's overrated. it set the standard at it's time and it was the first 3d zelda but that was the past not the present. Also majoras mask and wind waker (to an extent), and even links awakening(that's right a 2d zelda can beat Ocarina of Time) is better but that's just option.
look at 4:43 and 5:14 at least
and this
well the cd-i game and it was not made by Nintendo but still link had a personality. the horror...
even as a zelda fan i could honestly care less about the existence of this remake. It's a fine game but really it's overrated. it set the standard at it's time and it was the first 3d zelda but that was the past not the present. Also majoras mask and wind waker (to an extent), and even links awakening(that's right a 2d zelda can beat Ocarina of Time) is better but that's just option.
like thiscassiebearRAWR said:
look at 4:43 and 5:14 at least
and this
well the cd-i game and it was not made by Nintendo but still link had a personality. the horror...
heh. Rapelay is one of the greatest games of all time now?
Im think going to hell for just recognising the cover.
Ahh well. i too never fully completed Oot in its entirety. i just got sick and tired of having to start at the treehouse EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I loaded the game outside of a dungeon.
Im think going to hell for just recognising the cover.
Ahh well. i too never fully completed Oot in its entirety. i just got sick and tired of having to start at the treehouse EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I loaded the game outside of a dungeon.
In my opinion Zelda OoT aged well
the targeting system i never used so i cant relate to that, but stuff like the fish to get eaten or entering through right doors to progress were truly not a problem. Especially the fish thing, because the NPCs were pretty much in your face that the whale likes fish.
About the "difficult" water temple, i also got through it in my first try without having to think too much, but i can imagine when you start changing the waterlvl one time false that you could end up running in circles.
One of the most importants parts you totally missed out and i can´t denied thats probably not your fault, but my and my friends favourite gimmick in OoT was Epona, simply because it was very unique and made a hell lot of fun.
the targeting system i never used so i cant relate to that, but stuff like the fish to get eaten or entering through right doors to progress were truly not a problem. Especially the fish thing, because the NPCs were pretty much in your face that the whale likes fish.
About the "difficult" water temple, i also got through it in my first try without having to think too much, but i can imagine when you start changing the waterlvl one time false that you could end up running in circles.
One of the most importants parts you totally missed out and i can´t denied thats probably not your fault, but my and my friends favourite gimmick in OoT was Epona, simply because it was very unique and made a hell lot of fun.
but there is no timeline.starwarsgeek said:Well, to elaborate on why I think the stories are more than superficial changes, I'm going to half to elaborate on the backstory and plot of most of the series. So...Abandon4093 said:
Warning: The following post contains a description of every console Zelda's plot, so it's spoiler-y and really long.
The Legend of Zelda featured a nonlinear open world with 8 dungeons. Ganon, wielder of the Triforce of Power, wants to complete his golden triangle collection, so Zelda split the Triforce of Wisdom into 8 pieces and hid them from Ganon in these dungeons. Link collects them, goes to Ganon's Lair, and kills him. No, seriously, Ganon is killed off in the first game.
The game introduces the three main characters, the setting, and two of the Triforce pieces.
Adventure of Link's backstory is pretty neat. Long ago, an unnamed prince of Hyrule was angry that he did not inherit the Triforce when the king died. An evil unnamed wizard told him that his sister, Princess Zelda, knew where the Triforce of Courage was hidden. When she told him nothing, the prince had the wizard cast her into a magical sleep. Afterwards, he repented, but only the Triforce can break the spell, so there's nothing he can do to help her. In her honor, he orders that every princess of Hyrule will be named "Zelda". Fortunately for the first Princess Zelda, the spell also kept her alive. Link goes to collect the Triforce to wake her up. Ganon's minions know a spell to bring him back, but they need Link's blood, so they're constantly trying to kill him. Ganon isn't actually in the game, he's just the game over screen. This is actually a sidescroller. It introduces the Zelda lineage (although Skyward Sword reveals it dates back longer than Hyrule itself. She's just not a princess in Skyloft) and the third Triforce piece.
A Link to the Past, the next "normal" game in the series, introduces the standard structure, sometimes called "The Legend". You get three mcguffins, obtain the Master Sword (in its first appearance), go do...[sub]stuff[/sub], and then fight Ganon. I don't really think this should count as a formula for two reasons. First of all, it was only used in three other games. Secondly, the part between getting the Master Sword and defeating Ganon is incredibly vague. How many post-Master Sword dungeons Link needs to clear, when Zelda is imprisoned, when she's rescued, and how much help she provides is inconsistent. Since "The Legend" is kind of vague at the end and only happens in four of the fourteen (soon to be fifteen) games, I don't really think it's strict enough to be a formula. It's more like...a guideline. Anyway, ALTTP also introduces the Sacred/Golden Land (which Ganon hasn't corrupted into Dark World), another part of Hyrule's backstory (there was a civil war for the Triforce, the king had the sages/wise men seal off the Sacred Realm/Golden Land so no one could get it) and the concept of Ganon stealing the spotlight from another villain for the climax (which he does again in Oracles, Four Swords Adventure, and Twilight Princess).
Ocarina of Time, originally conceived as a prequel to A Link to the Past (but these days, who knows what order they go in?) was the first game to follow A Link to the Past's structure...get the spiritual stones, obtain the master sword. Basically, if it's still the prequel, then the ending explains how Ganon got into the Sacred Realm/Golden Land/Dark World. Zelda takes a semi-active role in this one (for the first time). It's the first game they show Ganon in his human form, and it introduces Hyrule's creation story and several other cultures (The Gerudo and Goron are new here...I think. The Zora aren't new, but this it the first time we got to see their city).
Majora's Mask is the direct sequel to Ocarina. The Triforce, Ganon, and the Master Sword are nowhere to be seen, and Zelda just gets a flashback cameo. Link is stuck in a time loop and has to stop a skull kid wearing an evil mask from pulling the moon into an Termina, an alternate universe equivalent of Hyrule. It's populated by Gorons, Zora, Gerudo, and Hylian Clones, but it is almost nothing like Hyrule culturally. (Well, the Gorons and Gerudo are similar to their Hyrule counterparts). Link accomplishes his goal by using magical masks that he gets from dead people to shapeshift into them. Yeah, this one is kind of creepy, and despite re-using almost everything from Ocarina, is the runner up for most unique game in the franchise from a gameplay perspective, and definitely the most unique in story.
The Wind Waker takes place in a happy post-apocalypse Hyrule. It begins by recapping the backstory of A Link to the Past and the events of Ocarina of Time (somewhat incorrectly...it's a legend in their world now, so it's been distorted a bit. It could have easily merged with some tales, and others could have been forgotten. This is why the timeline discussion is a little fuzzy...if the people in that world can't keep track of it, how can we?) Anyway, Ganon came back, and Link wasn't there, so the gods flood Hyrule to keep him away from the Triforce. A century-or-so later, Zelda, who's captain of a pirate ship and is actually named Tetra, takes a direct role in helping you throughout your quest to save Link's sister, and, afterwards, on you quest to kill Ganon. Ganon actually gets some much-needed development in this one, but his plan hasn't changed much. Like Ocarina, Ganon kidnaps Tetra near the end to obtain the Triforce of Wisdom. Unlike Ocarina, she is rescued before the battle with Ganon, picks up the light arrows, and helps you kill him. Again. Its story is similar to Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past, but it concludes that story arc. Old Hyrule, Ganon, the Master Sword, and the Triforce are gone, and it looks like it's for good this time, 'cause the handheld sequels (Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks) seem to be moving the story along.
I haven't played Four Swords Adventure, so I can't go into as much detail here. Basically, it's where the Four Sword arc from the handhelds melds with the Ganon-wants-to-conquer-Hyrule arc from the consoles. Also, it appears to be the backstory for Ganon (Maybe. It talks about him finding the Trident that he uses in older games) and Shadow Link. As far as I know, he's trying to conquer the good old fashioned way and the Triforce doesn't even make an appearance (which adds to the backstory possibility, if Ganon doesn't know about it yet). If I understand it correctly, Vaati (the villain from Minish Cap and the Four Swords) is killed off in this one. So this one gets rid of one villain and possibly explaining the roots of two others. Maybe.
[sub]Disclaimer: If any time line theorists are reading this, I repeat, I have not played this one. I got my summary from a quick read at tvtropes. I know this is a particularly debated game when it comes to its place in the timeline. I won't have a final conclusion until I play it myself; I'm only reporting what I read. [/sub]
Twilight Princess is basically the reason that the split-timeline theory exists. Well, actually, that's not quite right...the split timeline exists because Aonuma says so, but Twilight Princess is the only time it's needed. It's a post Ocarina of Time Zelda game that contradicts A Link to the Past's backstory (Ganon is sealed into the Twilight Realm instead of the Sacred Realm/Golden Realm/Dark World) and, if it weren't for the split timeline, would do the same for Ocarina's ending (He's sealed away before he can conquer the kingdom, and, again, in a different world). It's the only game that is pretty much impossible to fit well into a single timeline. In addition to practically confirming that there's two timelines, it also expands on that war from A Link to the Past's backstory. A tribe tried to capture the Triforce using their dark magic. They were banished into the Twilight Realm for this. Their weapon, the Fused Shadow, is an important plot device for the game. Most of the plot deals with Zant, king of the Twilight Realm, invading and conquering Hyrule. Zelda (who's only still a princess because a demonic invasion is slightly more important than a coronation) isn't even kidnapped; she's under house arrest in her own damn castle, which is why she isn't quite as active as Tetra. Ganon becomes a footnote in the story about halfway through, and he isn't active until the final dungeon. He does have the exact same motivation as A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time here, but that was done on purpose. Twilight Princess is suppose to be like Ocarina of Time. Skyward Sword is apparently going to radically change the series again, just like Ocarina of Time did so many years ago, and both Nintendo and its fans wanted one more game like it before the next era began. Personally, I thought Zant's part of the story was more interesting, but I get their reasoning behind the finale. The Wind Waker was the conclusion of Ocarina's story arc in-universe (in the Adult timeline anyway
Yes, The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess have similarities to Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past. However, both are conclusions of that story arc (one literally, one spiritually), and the differences are not just superficial. Both the obvious changes (flood and pirates, wolf and demon army) and the partners' subplots are much more than superficial changes, and each console game expands the universe--either by elaborating on the backstory (expect to see a lot of that in Skyward Sword), or by moving the story forward drastically, like Wind Waker.
I already discussed why I didn't think "the Legend" held up as a formula, but I'd like to elaborate on Ganon's part. I see the similarity in Ganon's plans as a character flaw, not a writing flaw. The Triforce isn't just part of Link, Zelda, and Ganon's backstories, it's the core of their characters. Link is courage incarnate. He doesn't care what's in his way, or even if it's his world that is in trouble, he will save the day. He will accept all calls to heroism. Zelda's wisdom allows her to be a good leader, whether it's knowing when to surrender to a demonic invasion in Twilight Princess, planning ahead to stop Ganon in the first game, or simply being a good captain in The Wind Waker. Likewise, Ganon is defined by his power. He plans like a warrior. He'll defeat Zelda and take the Triforce of Wisdom, then he'll defeat Link and take the Triforce of Courage. The details change, his approach changes a little, but that is the core of his plan because power is the core of his character. When you look at it from his perspective, they aren't bad plans either, especially considering he consistently comes closer to victory than any other recurring video game villain I can think of.
Where many see a cliched formula, I see a persistent villain and a constantly expanding continuity. So, yes, I can say it's more than superficial changes.
Also, I hope you enjoyed the read. I went into a lot more detail than I originally planned.
well i choose to believe that and i am zelda fan. i know Nintendo claims to have a secret timeline document and says there is a timeline but there bull shitting. there must be trolling the fans. i have no proff but timeline theorists don't have any proof that nintendo is not trolling. i wouldn't put it past nintendo since there bastards like that.
Golden eye is just bad. All i remember is sparkles when someone got shot and a silly gasping sound. Anyways the dev's certainty don't care about their fanboys opinions and have long since moved on. But herp derp some people think it the best still.
Anyway perfect dark was a much better n64 game if you aren't a moron and actually looked at the features. I mean it needed a bloody expansion Pack for the damn n64 just to run. It had tons of more interresting weapons and levels, game modes, unloackables etc. I think alot of the people who made that game was even the same people but Goldeneye morons still kling to their stale old MOLDY bread that had the grafics out of minecraft even for a n64.
Yeah just saw they had one of the same designers on both games. Who now works for codemasters so herp derp go buy their stuff then 007 fanbois.
Nintedo is just bad, there's a reason why playstation and xbox went far beyond them in the non casual/kiddy game depertment.. As in they don't sell their soul to gut children? of their pennies.
Anyway perfect dark was a much better n64 game if you aren't a moron and actually looked at the features. I mean it needed a bloody expansion Pack for the damn n64 just to run. It had tons of more interresting weapons and levels, game modes, unloackables etc. I think alot of the people who made that game was even the same people but Goldeneye morons still kling to their stale old MOLDY bread that had the grafics out of minecraft even for a n64.
Yeah just saw they had one of the same designers on both games. Who now works for codemasters so herp derp go buy their stuff then 007 fanbois.
Nintedo is just bad, there's a reason why playstation and xbox went far beyond them in the non casual/kiddy game depertment.. As in they don't sell their soul to gut children? of their pennies.
I fully admit I may be influenced by nostalgia, but I do think Ocarina of Time has more appeal than Twilight Princess. OoT's story is very basic, true, but it's told pretty consistently. I generally knew why I was going into dungeons/temples and what I was fighting for (yes, in part because the reasons were cliched and thus familiar), and it was all nicely worked out.
Twilight princess seems to set its bar higher, but half the time jumps lower than OoT. There's just so little coherence to the narrative. Half the dungeons felt like filler, no matter how nice the gameplay was I could not understand why I was doing them except "I'm playing a Zelda game and thus I need to clear dungeons". The house of the Yeti was the worst example, where a house owned by some snow monsters is infested with enemies (why? Never explained), you get send around at random through the house because the owners forgot where they left the MacGuffin, and the end boss is one of the yeti's spontaneously turned evil by the MacGuffin... which is then never brought up again.
The story outside the dungeon had the same problems. The kids are a prime example here. You start out with a pretty clear mission of finding them. Then... you do. And... then one gets kidnapped and one learns to be brave... and your GF loses her memory and you get pointed in the right direction for fixing it when you're in an arbitrary point in the story... then she gets her memory back, but it doesn't change anything... Really, the kids story line is in limbo after the first 25% of the game but petters on till the 75% mark, at which point we just forget about them. Just like the 4 heroes who sound interesting, but only really serve as map markers for your next dungeon, for no good reason. The only characters I really liked were Midna and the barlady.
It's a shame, because the game occasionally gets your hopes up. The cutscene where the water spirit shows you in a VERY personal way what happened when people turned on one another to steal the power of the triforce creeped me out in an awesome way. But it's only the one cutscene, nothing much comes of it. The gameplay is still nice, but storywise I expected more from this game and the game regularly teases you that you will get more eventually. But you never really do. And just why we need to call it legend of ZELDA at that point is beyond me, since Zelda has actually less impact on the story such as it is than the barlady (who needs a bigger part BTW).
Twilight princess seems to set its bar higher, but half the time jumps lower than OoT. There's just so little coherence to the narrative. Half the dungeons felt like filler, no matter how nice the gameplay was I could not understand why I was doing them except "I'm playing a Zelda game and thus I need to clear dungeons". The house of the Yeti was the worst example, where a house owned by some snow monsters is infested with enemies (why? Never explained), you get send around at random through the house because the owners forgot where they left the MacGuffin, and the end boss is one of the yeti's spontaneously turned evil by the MacGuffin... which is then never brought up again.
The story outside the dungeon had the same problems. The kids are a prime example here. You start out with a pretty clear mission of finding them. Then... you do. And... then one gets kidnapped and one learns to be brave... and your GF loses her memory and you get pointed in the right direction for fixing it when you're in an arbitrary point in the story... then she gets her memory back, but it doesn't change anything... Really, the kids story line is in limbo after the first 25% of the game but petters on till the 75% mark, at which point we just forget about them. Just like the 4 heroes who sound interesting, but only really serve as map markers for your next dungeon, for no good reason. The only characters I really liked were Midna and the barlady.
It's a shame, because the game occasionally gets your hopes up. The cutscene where the water spirit shows you in a VERY personal way what happened when people turned on one another to steal the power of the triforce creeped me out in an awesome way. But it's only the one cutscene, nothing much comes of it. The gameplay is still nice, but storywise I expected more from this game and the game regularly teases you that you will get more eventually. But you never really do. And just why we need to call it legend of ZELDA at that point is beyond me, since Zelda has actually less impact on the story such as it is than the barlady (who needs a bigger part BTW).
While there's not enough information to put together the exact order, the games themselves do have a continuity.Reincarnatedwolfgod said:
Ganon dies in The Legend of Zelda. His minions are trying to resurrect him in Zelda II: Adventure of Link.
Link's Awakening features bosses that were formed from Link's memories. They are bosses from a previous game (A Link to the Past, if I remember correctly).
It was stated in interviews that Ocarina of Time is a prequel to A Link to the Past (which, itself, was stated to be a prequel to the first game).
Majora's Mask is very obviously a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time. Among other subtle hints, he still has the ocarina.
The Wind Waker begins with by repeating ALTTP's backstory, followed by a recap of OoT. On the islands, it is a custom for boys to cosplay as the Hero of Time for their twelfth birthday. About halfway through the game, you go the sunken Hyrule castle, where there are stain glass windows of the sages from OoT. The statues of the goddesses are apparently actually statues of their oracles from the Oracle games on the GBC. The sapling that springs up after the Forest Temple is now a full grown Great Deku Tree.
Four Swords Adventure is the sequel to the multiplayer mode on the GBA version of ALLTP. Same sword, and the villain, Vaati, returns. It explains where Ganon found his Trident that he uses in most of his appearances (or possibly some innocent Gerudo named after the previous king stumbled upon his old weapon which had a spell that allowed Ganon to possess him. Or something).
The Minish Cap is Vaati's backstory, and the opening could be foreshadowing for Skyward Sword.
In interviews, Aonuma said Twilight Princess is a child-timeline sequel to Ocarina of Time. The first room of the Temple of Time is identical to the Ocarina version.
Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to The Wind Waker. Spirit Tracks, in turn, is a sequel to PH, just many years later. Many characters are decedents of WW/PH characters, and one of Tetra's crew is still alive.
Skyward Sword will involve the creation of the Master Sword, so it predates every game that it appears in. Probably the first game in the continuity so far.
Aonuma confirmed a split-timeline, and he's been in charge since Majora's Mask (the first game after Ocarina). The games support this. There's just not enough evidence to put them all in an undeniably correct order, which puts Nintendo in a sweet spot 'cause they can allude to the continuity, but they're free to tinker with it if needed without getting a huge forum backlash.
If Nintendo is pretending to have continuity, not only are they lying for no reason, but they're doing a fine job of making the games support the lies.
