yeah bioshock is also my #1 and #2 tomb raider. #3 is RE revelation since it has been released for pc. #4 sanctum 2. #5 mortal kombat since that has been released for pc as well.
Your liking of characters is going to be down to you. If you didn't like Elizabeth and Booker, I can't help you. Anyway, I'm not going to respond to all damned 40 minutes of that video, so let's grab the easiest one (in spoilers, just in case).Xangi said:Cool story bro. I would completely seriously honestly no-joke like to see some counterpoints to the video.Azahul said:hueg
Shit characters, illogical nonsense handwaves, bad logic, inconsistent logic, terrible PC-adjusted setting, thinking it's deeper than it is. Those are the main bits.Azahul said:With a couple of years of literary theory behind me, I honestly cannot tell what is broken in Bioshock's story.
Paragraph 1: Like I said in another post, opinion is subjective, mapping out story structure and character motivation is objective.Azahul said:With a couple of years of literary theory behind me, I honestly cannot tell what is broken in Bioshock's story. Not to mention the fact that there's a fairly large body of literary theory that states that objectivity is a myth and that all experiences are subjective, making it pretty hard to state "Nope. Not subjective," in one breath, and then "It's pretty obvious you've never read any literary theory" in the next. Care to expand on that?dakkster said:Nope. Not subjective. It's pretty obvious you've never read any literary theory. The writing is pure shit and it IS fundamentally broken if you care the least bit about story, characterization and writing.
I think Bioshock Infinite is a good game. It's okay. Game of the year? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Even if we strip out all of the bad writing and the illogical game design choices, it's a game where you have almost the same enemy over and over and over again and they are all bullet sponges. Then you have to ignore the fact that it's not explained anywhere how a normal human can take 20 bullets and still stand.
As for the gameplay, I'm honestly baffled by the bullet sponge argument. Bioshock Infinite is not a game aiming for realistic depictions of combat. You ride around on sky rails, fire lightning bolts out of your hand, and have a weird electromagnetic shield across your body. Why are you also expecting shooting aspect of the game to work like the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series? I can accept the argument that the game doesn't have very good difficulty scaling, but that's a fairly minor concern for a game not explicitly built to serve as a challenge to all skill levels.
Sim City 4 isn't on his list. That game launched in 2003.TheMemoman said:Bottom
5. Star Trek into Darkness
4. Sim City 4
3. Aliens Colonial Marines
2. Beyond Two Souls
1. Call Of Duty: Ghosts
SPECIAL: Zero Punctuation Life Time Achievement Award For Total Abhorrence:
Ride to Hell: Retribution
´Azahul said:Your liking of characters is going to be down to you. If you didn't like Elizabeth and Booker, I can't help you. Anyway, I'm not going to respond to all damned 40 minutes of that video, so let's grab the easiest one (in spoilers, just in case).
Or maybe it's called throwing the audience for a loop. That happens a lot in fiction. You've never read a story where the main villain does some thing that everyone said was impossible? Oh, and please don't resort to insulting me, it's disrespectful.dakkster said:Look, Shakespeare, I'll give you an example. If you present a narrative you need to set up the rules of the world in which the narrative takes place. If anything later on breaks those rules you have to explain how and why that happens, otherwise that's bad storytelling. Same with characters. You have to make the reader (or in this case player) understand why character X does action Y for reason Z. If character X then does A in spite of reason Z, that's bad storytelling.erttheking said:No it freaking isn't. The quality of story telling is subjective. There is no scale to determine the quality of a format in any book. Your complaints basically seem to be boiling down to "It doesn't do things the way other things do things" and while that might be a reason enough to dislike it, it doesn't give you a leg to stand on when you are claiming that it is objectively bad. You can't scientifically prove that Bioshock Infinite is a bad game.dakkster said:Opinion is subjective, yes. Mapping out story structure and character motivation is not. That's objective fact. You can't say that a game has great writing if the game's writing goes against every single established facet of good writing through thousands of years of storytelling.erttheking said:Uh, yeah. Be default, opinions are subjective. You cannot say that games are objectively bad. With the possible exception of games like Superman 64 where they just flat out don't work. You don't like it, that's fine, you have that right. You do not have the right to tell other people that they are wrong for disagreeing with you.dakkster said:Nope. Not subjective. It's pretty obvious you've never read any literary theory. The writing is pure shit and it IS fundamentally broken if you care the least bit about story, characterization and writing.Azahul said:The game is playable, and certainly more engaging and fun (for me) than a lot of First Person Shooters out there, so the quality of its game design sort of ends up in the area where opinions one way or the other are just going to be entirely subjective. Some people, evidently, liked what it did. Equally evident is that some people did not. Subjectivity man.dakkster said:I would expect a published writer, a game creator and paid game critic to see bad writing and bad game design coming miles away, which is the case with the lazy mess that is Bioshock Infinite.
Pretty much the same goes for the writing. It had some great characters, an engaging setting and story, and an ending that at least tried to do a lot more than the average video game narrative. Frankly, I think the accusation of "bad" writing there is pretty ludicrous. You can say it didn't appeal to you, but it wasn't fundamentally broken and so you can't expect everyone to conform to the same viewpoint on it.
I think Bioshock Infinite is a good game. It's okay. Game of the year? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Even if we strip out all of the bad writing and the illogical game design choices, it's a game where you have almost the same enemy over and over and over again and they are all bullet sponges. Then you have to ignore the fact that it's not explained anywhere how a normal human can take 20 bullets and still stand.
It's obvious you don't care about story OR you know exactly dick about literary analysis. You probably think Dan Brown is an amazing writer.
But again, even if we disregard every single bit of story or character in Bioshock Infinite and we ONLY look at the gameplay mechanics, it's mediocre.
Some of the most basic, fundamental pieces of literary theory argue that every single damned word in every language is a metaphor, their meanings subjective (I'm looking at you, Nietzsche), and you expect me to believe that there's an objective, defined set of rules governing what is a "good" example of story structure and character motivation? I don't know what kind of literary theory you've been studying, but it's clearly a lot less complicated than the one I was subjected to. The closest I can think of to what you describe is the idea one can write something that a large number of people will like, probably due to familiarity. That doesn't make it objectively good or bad, just easy to enjoy due to operating within a familiar frame of reference.dakkster said:Paragraph 1: Like I said in another post, opinion is subjective, mapping out story structure and character motivation is objective.
Have you noticed just how different Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite are? The first one contained a good few horror elements and was designed to make the player feel isolated and alone. Tough, insane enemies charging at you and soaking up bullets makes the player feel overwhelmed and afraid. In Bioshock Infinite, the enemies are just meant to be regular humans like Booker, but the tone of the adventure is one practically swashbuckling in nature. You're zipping around on skylines, running from a robotic dragon-thing, rescuing a princess from a tower. Tough enemies in this case serves a different purpose, it makes the game feel more like a fantasy quest than a realistic shooter. The choice in both cases serves a purpose. Again though, you may like, or you may not, as you so choose.dakkster said:Paragraph 2: Look at it this way: In Bioshock 1 you played against splicers. You were, as a player, given explanations as to why they were bullet sponge maniacs who ran right at you even if you were unloading a clip of a machine gun on them. You don't get a single explanation for the same behavior in Infinite. We are presented with these people as normal humans during the moments the shit doesn't hit the fan, so why should we suddenly accept that they are somehow superhuman? It's shoddy writing/design. Irrational Games COULD have told us why, but they didn't. Design choice = bad design.
For someone claiming to hold an objective stance on the subject, you're using a lot of loaded imagery there. Look, it's ok if you don't like the game, but you are going to need to accept that there are people out there that liked it, people that found its story and messages genuinely interesting, its characters compelling, and even people (shock horror) who felt it was a step up from the original game.dakkster said:Bioshock 1 is a better game than Infinite in almost every single way, except graphics and sound design, but that's only logical technical progression. Pretty much every other design aspect goes to Bioshock 1. The reason I make that comparison is because it's the same developer. It's not reasonable that a game released in 2013 that is WORSE than its predecessor released in 2007 gets GOTY awards. I don't give two shits about the rest of the game crop that year, but it doesn't justify giving GOTY titles to Bioshock Infinite. It's mediocre. It's okay. It's a 3 out of 5. It's like the Transformers movie. Shiny and cool at a first glance, but not very good if you give it more than five minutes of reflection.
And this is just nonsensical. A lot of things we've been talking about are subjective, but you're talking about some kind of objective standard by which you can study an individual's behaviour, choices, and motivation. I suspect that would come as a pretty nice surprise to the field of psychology.dakkster said:´Azahul said:Your liking of characters is going to be down to you. If you didn't like Elizabeth and Booker, I can't help you. Anyway, I'm not going to respond to all damned 40 minutes of that video, so let's grab the easiest one (in spoilers, just in case).
It's not about liking characters. It's about thinking about and analyzing their behavior, choices and motivation. That's not down to opinion. That's down to proper analysis that can be done without bias.
Funny how that never actually happened, though. Perhaps you could provide a link to even one instance of it?1337mokro said:It's backlash for the "unanimous" praise it was getting from every publication and reviewer for a while after it's release. Basically not liking it in the few weeks after it was released was paramount to high treason and you being an idiot for not getting "the smartest game ever made!!!!"
Well, that's a really mature way to handle things. Divide people into "sides" and then "spam" them with your opinion to be deliberately annoying, because you liked it so much when people (allegedly) did it to you.1337mokro said:It's our turn to spam you with our "correct" opinions about the game.
Gameplay quality is even MORE subjective than like/dislike of story and characters.dakkster said:But again, even if we disregard every single bit of story or character in Bioshock Infinite and we ONLY look at the gameplay mechanics, it's mediocre.
Technically, it's MGR, not MGS.Atmos Duality said:You know it's been a bad year when both a MGS game and Assassin's Creed game make it onto Yahtzee's list.
Promise?dakkster said:I'm sorry, but I just can't take anyone who calls Infinite's story/writing "excellent" seriously. Watch smudboy's videos. When you later realize that you can't refute his points, ask yourself why you still hold the game's story/writing in such high regard. That's all I'm going to say.
I just listened to his entire first video. As I said, it's clear he did not pay attention to the narrative. You cannot complain about writing if you don't bother to listen to it or read it. One of his big complaints is "why doesn't Elizabeth just do x" with her tears. It's explicitly stated in the game. Elizabeth does not choose or control her tears. She accesses existing ones. If the tear she wants isn't there, she can't take it. You also get a first person perspective of her opening tears that seem to appear promising and then immediately turn threatening/violent. Perhaps old Elizabeth from the later stage of the game can control the tears she wants, but the Elizabeth you play the game of specifically cannot, and says so.dakkster said:Nope. Not subjective. It's pretty obvious you've never read any literary theory. The writing is pure shit and it IS fundamentally broken if you care the least bit about story, characterization and writing.Azahul said:The game is playable, and certainly more engaging and fun (for me) than a lot of First Person Shooters out there, so the quality of its game design sort of ends up in the area where opinions one way or the other are just going to be entirely subjective. Some people, evidently, liked what it did. Equally evident is that some people did not. Subjectivity man.dakkster said:I would expect a published writer, a game creator and paid game critic to see bad writing and bad game design coming miles away, which is the case with the lazy mess that is Bioshock Infinite.
Pretty much the same goes for the writing. It had some great characters, an engaging setting and story, and an ending that at least tried to do a lot more than the average video game narrative. Frankly, I think the accusation of "bad" writing there is pretty ludicrous. You can say it didn't appeal to you, but it wasn't fundamentally broken and so you can't expect everyone to conform to the same viewpoint on it.
I think Bioshock Infinite is a good game. It's okay. Game of the year? Not a snowball's chance in hell. Even if we strip out all of the bad writing and the illogical game design choices, it's a game where you have almost the same enemy over and over and over again and they are all bullet sponges. Then you have to ignore the fact that it's not explained anywhere how a normal human can take 20 bullets and still stand.
Edit: If you're annoyed by people saying that it's bad writing, I invite you to look at the smudboy videos I linked to in my previous post. Everything you need to realize how awful the writing is in the game is in those videos.
No. No they do not. Also his analysis of Lutece and the timelines concerned is using THE GAME'S OWN LOGIC and therefore is most certainly NOT a moot point. However, even if it was, the grandfather paradox ruins the ending anyway, and EVEN IF THAT WAS SOLVED the concept of infinite realities completely nullifies the ability to permakill anyone ever. That's called shit writing. The entire thing is structured to LOOK like it works on the outside but ultimately was sabotaged in order to send a shitty message.Azahul said:The ridiculous copout handwaves fix the story
Urgh. I've seen a couple, but there's only so much I can take of someone alternating between missing the point and messages the game is trying to send, or just flat out ignoring what the game establishes about how its world works. Because, you know, paying attention to the rules of the game's universe would mean you can't make videos about plot holes. After a point (fairly early on), watching any more just becomes masochistic.dakkster said:I'm sorry, but I just can't take anyone who calls Infinite's story/writing "excellent" seriously. Watch smudboy's videos. When you later realize that you can't refute his points, ask yourself why you still hold the game's story/writing in such high regard. That's all I'm going to say.
Nice. "Objectively" poor. Objective based on what, exactly? I mean, you must have facts and hard data that objectifies how good a character must be to the reader?Xangi said:No. No they do not. Also his analysis of Lutece and the timelines concerned is using THE GAME'S OWN LOGIC and therefore is most certainly NOT a moot point. However, even if it was, the grandfather paradox ruins the ending anyway, and EVEN IF THAT WAS SOLVED the concept of infinite realities completely nullifies the ability to permakill anyone ever. That's called shit writing. The entire thing is structured to LOOK like it works on the outside but ultimately was sabotaged in order to send a shitty message.Azahul said:The ridiculous copout handwaves fix the story
Also, the characters are both objectively poor and to most who have actually read good literature, highly uninteresting.
The constants and variables idea is woven right through the game, from start to finish. It explicitly makes it clear that certain combinations of events do not occur. His entire scenario about swapping the Luteces around and having universes where Comstock and Booker live is fundamentally not possible according to the game's laws, and the game's own logic. His scenario does not work according to the game's logic, whatever you may think, but rather to the logic he himself is trying to impose on the game. There's a seriously large amount of misunderstanding around the way Bioshock Infinite's multiverse works, and a lot of people imposing their own ideas on it in total contradiction to what the game actually says.Xangi said:No. No they do not. Also his analysis of Lutece and the timelines concerned is using THE GAME'S OWN LOGIC and therefore is most certainly NOT a moot point. However, even if it was, the grandfather paradox ruins the ending anyway, and EVEN IF THAT WAS SOLVED the concept of infinite realities completely nullifies the ability to permakill anyone ever. That's called shit writing. The entire thing is structured to LOOK like it works on the outside but ultimately was sabotaged in order to send a shitty message.Azahul said:The ridiculous copout handwaves fix the story
Also, the characters are both objectively poor and to most who have actually read good literature, highly uninteresting.