Mass Grave of Over 200 Children Found at Former Canadian Residential School

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Revnak

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You might do well to listen to the podcast in post #225 of this thread. They didn't "setup the entire system themselves". They set up their system, homes for orphans, hospital services, etc. Then the Irish government pushed all their social services off onto the Catholic Church. They used the orphanages to hold juvenile delinquents. They used effectively women's shelters as places of confinement. They arrested prostitutes and gave them to the nuns to deal with. The Catholic institutions did not confine people in Ireland, they did not stop people from leaving. The Irish authorities were the ones arresting people and taking them back, the Irish government abused the Catholic Church's charity. And then when you take all the prostitutes, homeless women, single mothers, etc and put them in the same facility, you get a dramatically higher rate of miscarriage and infant mortality there. It does require any abuse to reach that outcome given the circumstances. When the government is arresting women for being single mothers, and insists on hiding them away from society, adopting out the children was a solution that allowed mother and child out of the captivity the government insisted on.

And I'm sure someone is going to think "well if it wasn't for Catholic morals, they wouldn't have been so cruel to single mothers and prostitutes", and that line of thinking is ahistorical nonsense, ignorant of the fact that Christ being born of an unwed woman and being kind to prostitutes was a unique take relative to pre-Christian culture. Even hypersexualized ancient Greece shoved such women out of the public eye.
You think the Catholic Church, which profited from the “services” provided in Ireland, publicly supported politicians who wanted to maintain their stranglehold over those services, were the ones who offered in the first place, etc, had zero influence over deciding what kind of woman wound up there? After deciding to take the children from these unwed mothers, you want me to believe they did not want to be the ones punishing them, that these kinds of women were innocent in their eyes? THE NUNS BEAT THEM TO DEATH, TSTORM. THEY BEAT THEM TO DEATH AND THE CHURCH COVERED IT UP. DO YOU GENUINELY THINK THE CHURCH HAD ZERO INFLUENCE IN DETERMINING WHO IT WOULD BEAT TO DEATH?!?
 

Kwak

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You think the Catholic Church, which profited from the “services” provided in Ireland, ...
And from this...

In 1999, researchers Léo-Paul Lauzon and Martin Poirier issued a report arguing that both the Quebec provincial government and the Catholic Church made substantial profits by falsely certifying thousands of Quebec orphans as mentally ill during Duplessis' premiership. The authors made a conservative estimate that religious groups received $70 million in subsidies (measured in 1999 dollars) by claiming the children as "mentally deficient", while the government saved $37 million simply by having one of its orphanages redesignated from an educational institution to a psychiatric hospital.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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You think the Catholic Church, which profited from the “services” provided in Ireland, publicly supported politicians who wanted to maintain their stranglehold over those services, were the ones who offered in the first place, etc, had zero influence over deciding what kind of woman wound up there? After deciding to take the children from these unwed mothers, you want me to believe they did not want to be the ones punishing them, that these kinds of women were innocent in their eyes? THE NUNS BEAT THEM TO DEATH, TSTORM. THEY BEAT THEM TO DEATH AND THE CHURCH COVERED IT UP. DO YOU GENUINELY THINK THE CHURCH HAD ZERO INFLUENCE IN DETERMINING WHO IT WOULD BEAT TO DEATH?!?
I'm not sure that the nuns purposefully beat children to death (although it may have happened in a few edge cases). I think that the children just died from neglect, because the nuns cared more about "saving their souls" than they were about their actual physical well being. It didn't really matter to them if the children died so long as they learned about Jesus first. If they died after that point "oh well, it's god's will."
 
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Seanchaidh

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And from this...

In 1999, researchers Léo-Paul Lauzon and Martin Poirier issued a report arguing that both the Quebec provincial government and the Catholic Church made substantial profits by falsely certifying thousands of Quebec orphans as mentally ill during Duplessis' premiership. The authors made a conservative estimate that religious groups received $70 million in subsidies (measured in 1999 dollars) by claiming the children as "mentally deficient", while the government saved $37 million simply by having one of its orphanages redesignated from an educational institution to a psychiatric hospital.
This seems like the perfect opportunity for tstorm823 to blame capitalism.
 

Revnak

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I'm not sure that the nuns purposefully beat children to death (although it may have happened in a few edge cases). I think that the children just died from neglect, because they nuns cared more about "saving their souls" than they were about their actual physical well being. It didn't really matter to them if the children died so long as they learned about Jesus first. If they died after that point "oh well, it's god's will."
The podcast in question references specific cases of nuns sexually abusing kids and beating children to death.
 

tstorm823

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do you mean in Ireland only, because if not this is massively disputable.
I mean that stigma against unmarried pregnant women is more than 2000 years old in a multitude of cultures.
You think the Catholic Church, which profited from the “services” provided in Ireland....
Let's stop right there. What profit do you think there was in any of these places? There was money going into them, sure, but not enough to be profitable in any meaningful sense. These schools in Canada couldn't care for children properly on the funds they had and were eventually taken by the government. The Magdalene Laundries had people working, but that doesn't mean they were pulling in profits, that money went to subsistence.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Let's stop right there. What profit do you think there was in any of these places? There was money going into them, sure, but not enough to be profitable in any meaningful sense. These schools in Canada couldn't care for children properly on the funds they had and were eventually taken by the government. The Magdalene Laundries had people working, but that doesn't mean they were pulling in profits, that money went to subsistence.
The fact that they weren't properly caring for the children doesn't mean there weren't any profits. The responsible thing would be to use the money available to them for the physical well-being of the children. That doesn't mean that's what actually happened.
 

Revnak

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Let's stop right there. What profit do you think there was in any of these places? There was money going into them, sure, but not enough to be profitable in any meaningful sense. These schools in Canada couldn't care for children properly on the funds they had and were eventually taken by the government. The Magdalene Laundries had people working, but that doesn't mean they were pulling in profits, that money went to subsistence.
The ones in Ireland included a contract with Hasbro to make board games. They did not pay the women. The government also setup contracts for the services. But please, tell me more about the poverty of the Roman Catholic Church.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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(everyone arguing about the Catholic Church)
The Canadian government who is more responsible for this successfully deflecting blame on the Church:

Don't get me wrong the Catholic Church deserves the shit they're getting but the fact Canadian government is pushing all the blame onto someone else here is really fucked up. They ordered these schools, they knew what was going on, and fought lawsuits against these people seeking retribution until the graves were actually found forcing them to cough up the dough.



this is a Canadian sin first, a Catholic one second
 

tstorm823

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The fact that they weren't properly caring for the children doesn't mean there weren't any profits. The responsible thing would be to use the money available to them for the physical well-being of the children. That doesn't mean that's what actually happened.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that's not what actually happened. I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest the Catholic Church was taking funds out of the schools and homes they operated.
The ones in Ireland included a contract with Hasbro to make board games. They did not pay the women. The government also setup contracts for the services. But please, tell me more about the poverty of the Roman Catholic Church.
They didn't pay the women, but operating facilities full of people isn't free. You understand most people are paid for services they provide and then spend that money on food and shelter. Why do you somehow imagine those places, who had children to feed, were not using the money on necessities?
 

Revnak

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They didn't pay the women, but operating facilities full of people isn't free. You understand most people are paid for services they provide and then spend that money on food and shelter. Why do you somehow imagine those places, who had children to feed, were not using the money on necessities?
Because they also beat and raped said children, so it’s probably a safe assumption some of it was pocketed.
 

tstorm823

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Because they also beat and raped said children, so it’s probably a safe assumption some of it was pocketed.
So you're making guesses based on your emotions.
He's literally defending slavery you guys.
No, I'm not.
And here we have a defence of slavery on the basis of operating costs.
No, you don't. First, it's not slavery when you can leave. There's no such thing as voluntary slavery. Second, all I said was the claims they profited are baseless.
 

MrCalavera

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It appears that the number of people who think Canada is responsible is one more than the number who think the Catholic Church is responsible. That is why everyone is arguing about the Catholic Church.
More accurately: We have several people arguing that the Church and Canadian goverment share responsibility. And one person completely absolving the former.
 

Revnak

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So you're making guesses based on your emotions.
I’m more basing it on opulent stuff like this being the end result of all those slavery schools.
1625426536465.jpeg


No, you don't. First, it's not slavery when you can leave. There's no such thing as voluntary slavery. Second, all I said was the claims they profited are baseless.
The Tyler the Creator cyber bullying take but for enslaving Irish sex workers is awesome.
 
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Silvanus

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No, you don't. First, it's not slavery when you can leave. There's no such thing as voluntary slavery. Second, all I said was the claims they profited are baseless.
These kids couldn't leave; they were sent to the schools & orphanages by the state, and the institutions then proceeded to put them to unpaid work in the fields, whilst also meting out extreme physical punishments.
 
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Seanchaidh

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And here we have a defence of slavery on the basis of operating costs.
when you think capitalism is fine, you don't have to travel all that far to say the same for slavery. Witness reactions to strikes to see that in action.

So you're making guesses based on your emotions.
is assuming that a burglar may want to steal something a "guess based on emotions" or just a conclusion based on assuming that the burglar is both self-interested and (at least on some level) rational?