Gena Davis institute on Gender in media tries to link violent games to mass shootings and police violence

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Silvanus

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So you're arguing they're unrealistically sexualised compared to what again as there's not real version to compare to lol.
What unrealistically compared to some other fiction?
No, you're the only one bringing up realism or insisting on making comparisons with real world counterparts.

Comparisons with real world counterparts are completely unnecessary. They don't need to be realistic. It's fiction. Funnily enough, something can be entirely fictional and still stupidly sexualised! Imagine!


Yes it does because your argument is so highly flawed. "How any martial artists do this stuff in bikini's" well most of the DOA girls don't do it either as their default look Imagine applying that standard to any other video game "Oh it's unrealistic photo journalist Frank West runs round a mall dressed as Mega Man"
And how does this relate to your bizarre question about women "never" wearing bikinis in real life? You know, a claim nobody ever made?

You just lurch from strawman to non-sequitur and back again. It's so incoherent.

Ok then so if you're not comparing them to reality does that mean the real life women in said roles are overly sexualised and should be toned down?
What? As far as I can see, women in the actual martial arts are much less likely to wear sexualised outfits. Outfits tend to be much more practical in general.

Though I hardly see the relevance of this; I don't understand why you're constantly comparing these fictional characters to real-world women.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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No, you're the only one bringing up realism or insisting on making comparisons with real world counterparts.

Comparisons with real world counterparts are completely unnecessary. They don't need to be realistic. It's fiction. Funnily enough, something can be entirely fictional and still stupidly sexualised! Imagine!
So they're stupidly sexualised despite being less sexualised than their real world counterparts?


And how does this relate to your bizarre question about women "never" wearing bikinis in real life? You know, a claim nobody ever made?

You just lurch from strawman to non-sequitur and back again. It's so incoherent.
Actually I put it as a question because it was so ridiculous I figured you'd realise how ridiculous it sounded that optional costumes where now the issue you had.
I mean what's next asking if a martial artist has ever played volleyball or gone swimming?


What? As far as I can see, women in the actual martial arts are much less likely to wear sexualised outfits. Outfits tend to be much more practical in general.

Though I hardly see the relevance of this; I don't understand why you're constantly comparing these fictional characters to real-world women.
Mostly because in proper competitions there are rules round dress code specifically because in some martial arts you need said elements to be present to perform the particular martial art.
E.G. strong collars on outfits and fairly thick baggy sleeves to grab onto to do throws.

Also UFC is mixed martial arts so I could just point to a lot of the women in said sport as examples of female martial artists and they fight in booty shorts and sports bras lol
 

Silvanus

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So they're stupidly sexualised despite being less sexualised than their real world counterparts?
But they're not less sexualised than their closest real world counterparts. They're significantly more so.


Actually I put it as a question because it was so ridiculous I figured you'd realise how ridiculous it sounded that optional costumes where now the issue you had.
I mean what's next asking if a martial artist has ever played volleyball or gone swimming?
I realised how ridiculous it sounded, yes. Oddly enough, if you come out with ridiculous strawman questions, it actually reflects more on you than it does on me.

Mostly because in proper competitions there are rules round dress code specifically because in some martial arts you need said elements to be present to perform the particular martial art.
E.G. strong collars on outfits and fairly thick baggy sleeves to grab onto to do throws.
Uh, yes. Don't really see the relevance of explaining why real world martial artists fight in practical outfits. Though I doubt that if those dress codes weren't in place, women would choose to fight in bikinis.

The reason they do in games it to titillate men.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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The problem is that these feminist elites, and groups are behind closed doors lobbying artists and video game companies to make forced artistic choices.
First they'll take away our polygon tiddies, then they'll cut off our balls and make us carry their purses! Save the polygon tiddies!

Because so far your argument now seems to have become arguing that alternative costumes (which male characters also have) are a problem. Which........ I mean really you're arguing realism when one of Zack's alternative costumes is....... well this.....

da427ca26498af54-600x338.jpg
Does that seem sexualized to you? I mean, I'm not here to judge....

Also, do you know anyone who dresses like this for a fight?

 
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Avnger

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Now that is incredibly country dependend.

E.G, in Germany teachers need special university degrees in subject(teaching) which is a mix of the topic at hand and pedagogy. A regular university course will end with teaching qualifications for two subjects and some mandatory practice in schools.

Side entry with is possible but only when there is some huge demand for the subject, comes with a long extra qualification phase and only for people who already have a degree in or related to the subject. All those esceptions are decided on state level. So far that happens pretty much only for some STEM entries and the occasional rare language. Of course teachers can also later qualify for additional subjects as well.

So a gender studies BA or master can't do any career in education aside from aiming for university professor. Or they could start completely over with a second degree.


Of course our harsher teaching qualification requirements also come with higher pay and more social status.
That's entirely fair. I was approaching from a US perspective where education requires either a certification or an education degree that is masters level and above.
 

Avnger

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I, and likely the majority of people don't go to college to learn, we go to make ourselves more marketable for a job. If jobs didn't require a degree enrollment would plummet.
1. Citation needed

2. Take 30 seconds and consider why those jobs ask for a bachelors degree (even in fields where a trade school like alternative exists)
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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There's ex finance manager of Femfreq Kathrine Cross who suddenly became an expert video game developer according to Gamasutra who gave her a spot there normally just for professionals in the games industry to be part of there
So she's a professional in the games industry then. But what does that have to do with making games unsexy?
There's Heather Alexandra who mysteriously left Polygon I think it was and became Double Fine's Social Media Manager (no ill will towards her. she seems more some-one who fell for the narrative rather than a true believer).
There's <name> who believes ideology, which is sinister somehow, trust me
There's the writer for the KOTOR remake who was previously best known for being the person pushing the GTA V digital rape controversy in Australia.
Industry wise, I'm pretty sure she's best known as a writer for half a dozen video games, not an out of context interview years ago. But gamers hate seeing how the sausage gets made, so I see the confusion.
There's claims about a sort of successor group or groups to the Ada initiative still going on in some capacity.

It's not to render sex games unviable it's "To save the world" or "Change the culture to fix society" or some other bullshit.

Sex games being changed aren't the goal, they're a stepping stone
Conspiracy drivel
54FBD3D4-918D-4DA2-BC0E-2B01B2814F59.jpeg
 
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Gergar12

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1. Citation needed

2. Take 30 seconds and consider why those jobs ask for a bachelors degree (even in fields where a trade school like alternative exists)
You don't think that enrollment wouldn't plummet if employers didn't require a degree.
 
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Avnger

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You don't think that enrollment wouldn't plummet if employers didn't require a degree.
Still waiting for even a single citation for literally anything you've said in this thread.....

And again, why do you think those employers require degrees to being with (particularly in areas that have a trade school equivalent)?
 
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Gergar12

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Still waiting for even a single citation for literally anything you've said in this thread.....

And again, why do you think those employers require degrees to being with (particularly in areas that have a trade school equivalent)?
Your citation was basically the school's mouthpiece saying they are X.If I were a business for example I could argue that I don't sell poison when in fact I am selling tobacco products, and the de facto effect of it is your selling poison.


And again, why do you think those employers require degrees to being with (particularly in areas that have a trade school equivalent)?

Because employers are forced to due to a growing supply of college degrees flooding the market. It's supply and demand. The more of something there is, the less valuable it is unless it's matched by an equal or bigger demand. Basically credentialism.
 

Terminal Blue

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YEs and plenty of women with big boobs liked Tifa originally anyway the change doesn't really suddenly make her appeal to said demographic
Are you sure, because this really, REALLY doesn't look like getting over it. In fact, it kind of looks like being morbidly obsessed. How many women do you think are on the internet typing furiously about how putting Tifa being in a sports bra is ruining their experience?

It's been pretty consistently shown that female audiences, regardless of bra size, don't tend to like oversexualized female characters. At best, they tolerated them when they had no choice, but female audiences have choices and market influence now. Also, while this is anecdotal, in my experience, women with big boobs (especially skinny, conventionally attractive women with big boobs) tend to be particularly sensitive to objectification because they experience it on a daily basis.

Well debunked to the extent that people yelling about harmful effects of media have been shown to have no basis for their claims.
That entirely depends on what you consider to be "harmful".

You've misunderstood cultivation theory. Cultivation theory isn't the same thing as the "media brainwashing" alleged by right wing conspiracy theories and Christian moralists. A piece of media can't be responsible for a person's actions. It can't take away a person's self-control or fundamentally change who they are. It can't force them to do something they wouldn't otherwise do.

Cultivation theory is the idea that narrative can influence the way you think about the world, which is undeniably true. The classic example is that people who watch a lot of true crime shows, or even fictional crime dramas, tend to think that crime is more prevalent than it really is and to overestimate their risk of falling victim to it. Men who watch a lot of pornography tend to rate the attractiveness of their own sexual partners lower and report less satisfying sex lives. Developing parasocial relationships for fictional characters can make you more sympathetic to real people whose experiences resemble those characters. All of these effects are extremely well documented and easily demonstrable.

Throwing academics at me isn't terrible persuasive, even by the standards of appeals to authority. Being a "20 year veteran" doesn't mean anything in academia except that you're either a burned out wasted husk of a human being or a complete hack. Give me a full text citation or don't bother.

Properganda works is a tough one because that's a specially designed kind of media using a lot of advertising techniques and to quote a Coca Cola executive "If advertising worked half as well as some people claim, we wouldn't have to keep doing it so much".
The US military spends incredible, unfeasible amount of money subsidizing Hollywood films, both in raw finance and in the use of actual military equipment and personnel. The conditions attached to this is that the film's messaging has to be approved by the military. A film that paints the military in a bad light or doesn't align with what the military thinks are its own ethical standards doesn't get subsidies. This means that anti-war or anti-military films cost more to make, meaning fewer such films get made, meaning the public is overwhelmingly exposed to media which presents the military in a particular way.

And its insidious. All of the Iron Man films, for example, received military subsidies. There's no scene where Tony Stark says "hey guys, you should all sign up for the army and die for the glorious motherland." There doesn't need to be. The military are there in the background, they're presented as good honest people doing their best. No difficult questions are asked, and then we move on to a man dressing up in a big metal suit to punch bad guys.

That's the actual, real, dangerous form of propaganda. The stuff you see on North Korean state television is the equivalent of Infowars. It works on the people who already believe it, or who have to believe it because otherwise they'll be sent to a camp. To really influence people, all you have to do is to ensure that the media they consume overwhelmingly leads to one particular conclusion, even it it takes many different paths to get there (in fact, especially if it takes many different paths to get there, because that illusionary plurality is more persuasive).
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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And again, why do you think those employers require degrees to being with (particularly in areas that have a trade school equivalent)?

Because employers are forced to due to a growing supply of college degrees flooding the market. It's supply and demand. The more of something there is, the less valuable it is unless it's matched by an equal or bigger demand. Basically credentialism.
Supply doesn't drive demand.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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But they're not less sexualised than their closest real world counterparts. They're significantly more so.
Are they? Because I'm pretty sure I showed they're very much not more sexualised than their real world counterparts.

So if you wish to argue they are care to show me what women who are members of secret ninja clans look like in real life?
Or how about what magical Tengu what to magical Tengu women look like in real life?



I realised how ridiculous it sounded, yes. Oddly enough, if you come out with ridiculous strawman questions, it actually reflects more on you than it does on me.
Yet it was your question regarding martial artists and bikinis. As I pointed out UFC women's fighters class as martial artists and fight in basically sports bras and booty shorts. Do they not count?


Uh, yes. Don't really see the relevance of explaining why real world martial artists fight in practical outfits. Though I doubt that if those dress codes weren't in place, women would choose to fight in bikinis.

The reason they do in games it to titillate men.
And yet women in UFC happily fight in sports bras and booty shorts when the standard robe like martial arts dress codes aren't applied.

As for titillating men? Is there something wrong with that? You could argue sexy butler Jann Lee is a costume in DOA to excite women. Hell "Hot Ryu" went down pretty well in Street Fighter too.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Congratulations, you failed at college.
It's somehow worse than that: I literally failed out of engineering school and the stuff I picked up from the required general education classes has been invaluable, particularly the hardcore capitalist economics professor

Gergar12 somehow went to school as a trade and ran it like somebody speedrunning WoW.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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First they'll take away our polygon tiddies, then they'll cut off our balls and make us carry their purses! Save the polygon tiddies!


Does that seem sexualized to you? I mean, I'm not here to judge....

Also, do you know anyone who dresses like this for a fight?

No Zack's Alien costume isn't sexualised to me just pointing out the general unrealism of the costumes overall was he point of that example.

As for Ivy, no I don't know anyone who does but then I don't know people with Soul Edge corrupted blood running through their veins or that a whip sword weapon the likes of which she uses is even actually possible to make so it functions the way hers does in game.

Soulcalibur as a series has has demonic knights, shape shifters and reanimated ogres and characters so I don't think we're really working on the realms of our worlds logic.
 

Terminal Blue

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It's somehow worse than that: I literally failed out of engineering school and the stuff I picked up from the required general education classes has been invaluable, particularly the hardcore capitalist economics professor
My cousin actually had a very similar experience. She went to Cambridge (kind of like getting into an Ivy League school in the US, but more so) to do engineering, hated every moment of it, dropped out and is now doing fine in an entirely unrelated profession.

If you do the things you enjoy, which also tend to be the things you are good at, you'll perform better and be more competitive, plus you'll end up as a better, more well rounded human being with the flexibility to do something you didn't anticipate if you have to.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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1. Citation needed

2. Take 30 seconds and consider why those jobs ask for a bachelors degree (even in fields where a trade school like alternative exists)
On 2 I hate to say it but the reason for some is purely prestige "Our workers are all trained to degree level or above" gives a false sense of prestige.

How do I know?

My Uncle did the same job for nearly 30 years. He was told he would have to get a degree in the subject or retire. 30 years in the job. in 30 years no issue with him doing it but now the needed him to have a degree to do it. His last project before he retired was planning a hospital building. So he was being told he wasn't suitable for the job anymore but his bosses were fine for him to plan and design a hospital building layout before he retired due to being deemed not suitable for the job now.

Degrees can teach you but so can real life experience. Some places just ask for stuff to seem fancy. I job near me was asking for people with PhDs to apply. The job wasn't PhD level, other companies in he area paying roughly the same advertising similar jobs asked for A levels only (for US people that's End of High School subject results)
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So she's a professional in the games industry then. But what does that have to do with making games unsexy?
Advocacy and being given a platform to address people from and present certain perspectives and ideas.
Ideas they generally don't hold up well under scrutiny.

Similar to how Mary Whitehouse operated in the past.


Only her arguments were challenged on an equal platform in the end and shown to lose

Also Kathrine Cross is NOT a game industry professional. She's a feminist media analyst
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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There's <name> who believes ideology, which is sinister somehow, trust me
Well I mean there is google at your disposal but I'd direct you to her piece about how the games industry keeps having the same arguments over and over where among other things she argues people upset over the Mass Effect 3 ending were in the wrong and part of what's wrong with the industry is people just don't know their place and won't admit to being wrong when their betters tell them they're wrong.

Conspiracy drivel
Oh is it conspiracy when they actually have said it?


^Full panel for context

Video commenting on the panel and taking clips from it