If you read for 26 seconds instead, you would have read "or the last 4 digits of their social security number". No demographic is less likely to have a social security number.
Indiana Senate Bill 167: Holy crap, what a mess.
- Thread starter thebobmaster
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So, you don't have an actual argument, you just want to be mad and will continue to pull every half-assed whatsboutism you can find? You dropped California real damn fast once I pointed out the difference with what was going on, huh
And then 27 seconds to see that this is the less stringent option than the one the GOP *wants* to pass, while still fucking up official, sanctioned drop boxes for no reason, and then 28 seconds to realize you never actually defended the GOPs unsanctioned, unsupervised, unaccountable lock boxes in California
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I don't feel it's necessary to defend the boxes in California, as in your words "Hell, the state even backed off" when the Republicans started supervising their drop boxes. You, and the state of California, seemed unconcerned with them once they were supervised, which is where the comparison comes from, so what am I meant to be defending?
Ah yes, the social security number, which... isn't part of the Republican proposal.
This is putting aside that this whole reply is a distraction from the fact you misrepresented the bill by implying all it did was introduce box monitors.
CA allows ballot harvesting, allowing any party the voter chooses to turn in their mail in ballot:
Presumably, dropping it in a GOP dropbox or other location designated by a party for collecting ballots to be delivered is designating that party to deliver your ballot, or at least one could reasonably argue it? There's an argument to be made that the signage on the boxes needed altered to be more clear who exactly was running the boxes, but I can entirely see how these boxes could be otherwise argued to be entirely legitimate under CA law.
It's weird that we have all this concern over what GOP officials might do with a box full of signed and sealed ballots collected in places where the voters are going to lean GOP, but for some reason having people go door to door collecting ballots isn't a problem, and what happens before they are signed and sealed is definitely irrelevant.
I don't do "gotcha"s. If you felt got, that's a you thing.
Honestly, the bill doesn't matter. The forum user behaved exactly as predicted, and argued against that one aspect of the final bill, all and only because of who wanted it.
It absolutely matters. Mysterious said there were big differences between the situations. You were the only one who boiled it down to just the watchers, and then acted as if that was the only provision in order to make a deceptive argument.
That was in fact the argument, and is why the state dropped the cease and desist when the GOP corrected the issue.
The whole "unauthorized, unaccountable" thing keeps tripping people up and I don't know why. Soon as the GOP brought their version of ballot harvesting up to a minimum standard of conduct, both I and the State of California stopped having an issue with it.
Which is why it's weird tstorm brought it up to begin with: there were procedurally issues that needed addressing and it stopped being a problem as soon as they were addressed. Problem resolved
That's the point. On the most shallow level, they technically made voting more difficult, but it was to resolve a problem. And then everyone was ok with it, you included. But if a Republican led government tries to resolve the problem of drop boxes being unsupervised, you're not willing to even consider the comparison. You consider the Republicans in the wrong on both occasions.
Generally because they are wrong on both occasions. Republicans literally can't be trusted to run fair elections. Democrats just keep their cheating to primaries where there are no rules they have to follow.
...and simultaneously introduces a raft of other restrictive measures at the same time...
Which you believe because you think what they do is cheating... which you believe because you don't trust Republicans... which you believe because you think what they do is cheating...
There's no credible data to suggest voter ID is voter suppression, and yet everyone continues to carry water for that argument all and only because Republicans favor it. Regularly, when voter id comes up, you often have people from other countries actually say that it's crazy that the US doesn't require ID to vote, but then rationalize that it only works because they don't have cheaters like the Republicans... it's absolutely bonkers the knots people can tie themselves into to maintain the belief that one party in particular is evil.
I mean, we have in another thread Republicans from multiple states sending fake elector slates to the capitol in what is looking like a partywide conspiracy. They literally can't be trusted to run fair elections right now.
I mean, they have a history of cheating (e.g. gerrymandering), they overtly discussed cheating in 2020, and they are giving themselves the legal power to cheat post-2020. It's not clear to me why anyone should think they're NOT trying to cheat.
There's no credible data to suggest fraud exists on a significant scale, and yet the Republican Party is happy to use it as a justification for sweeping restrictions, and the last GOP candidate for President was happy to use it as justification to overturn entire states' electoral results.
This is, of course, entirely false. We have a plethora of data showing exactly that. Contrary to your apparent belief, refusing to acknowledge the evidence doesn't make it not exist.
We know that voter fraud, particularly the kind that would be stopped by voter id is essentially non-existent.
Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth
The president has continued to claim voter fraud was a problem in the 2016 election. A look at the facts makes clear fraud is rare, and does not happen on a scale even close to necessary to “rig” an election.
Americans are more likely to be struck by lightning than commit election fraud
Not only is there no credible evidence of widespread fraud in 2020, but fraud has been remarkably low in elections conducted in this century.
www.businessinsider.com
We also know that voter id laws have a suppression effect.
:watermark(cdn.texastribune.org/media/watermarks/2015.png,-0,30,0)/static.texastribune.org/media/images/2014/10/15/GallegoHurd-CD23.jpg)
Study: Law Discouraged More Than Those Without Voter ID
Texas’ strict voter identification requirements kept many would-be voters in a Latino-majority congressional district from going to the polls last November — including many who had proper IDs — a new survey shows.
www.texastribune.org
Voter Identification Laws and the Suppression of Minority Votes | The Journal of Politics: Vol 79, No 2
The proliferation of increasingly strict voter identification laws around the country has raised concerns about voter suppression. Although there are many reasons to suspect that these laws could harm groups like racial minorities and the poor, existing studies have been limited, with most...
www.journals.uchicago.edu
When combined, these two facts show that the GOP are supporting and enacting voter id laws that suppress certain voters without solving any actual problems. That leaves us with the question of why it's being done, whether it be ignorance of very basic and well-researched facts or malice against the voters they are choosing to suppress.
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The problem wasn't "drop boxes being unsupervised" the problem was "unauthorized partisan third party drop boxes pretending to be official dropboxes being unsupervised"
You know, like how I don't have a problem with USPS mail boxes but fake USPS mail boxes set up by *whoever* would be a fucking issue. Are you capable of seeing the difference there, Mr Semantics Are Important?
Any other apples-to-donuts comparisons you'd like to make?
Confidence in elections is important. Both parties regularly claim foul play and demand recounts, security and accountability are important regardless of the prevalence of fraud. Now, I'll readily admit to you that there is a shallow political play here: Republicans pass election security, which believe it or not the vast majority of people have no problem with and don't think is racist, knowing Democrats will try to obstruct and allow Republicans to campaign on how Democrats want less secure elections. That's the political play here, election security is a winning issue and Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot fighting it, and don't realize its bad for them because they live in a bubble of their own making.
Gerrymandering predates the Republican Party, and as the opposite of gerrymandering is also gerrymandering, it was unavoidable. Not to say Republicans haven't done some bad gerrymandering, but acting like it's a Republican thing is just wrong. Who discussed cheating in 2020 is an important specification, because you're not remotely talking about the people making local county decisions about polling places, and your claims of giving themselves the legal power to cheat are just 100% based on insinuation.
How do you know something isn't happening while opposing the thing that would allow it to be found?
This one is my favorite. The rest is just advocates being advocates, and even among people advocating against voter ID, there's strong evidence it doesn't suppress voting. But man, this Texas Tribune article is a riot! So what is it? A survey, where they asked people who didn't vote why they didn't vote, and asked why they didn't. 13% said it was at least in part because they thought they lacked the proper ID, where only 3% actually lacked the proper ID. So, at minimum, 10% of the polling sample falsely believed they didn't have the right ID to vote. Hey, Texas Tribune, would you mind saying this next part for me?Study: Law Discouraged More Than Those Without Voter ID
Texas’ strict voter identification requirements kept many would-be voters in a Latino-majority congressional district from going to the polls last November — including many who had proper IDs — a new survey shows.
" The voter ID law depressed turnout in the 2014 election, but it did so primarily through confusion, not through actually keeping people without IDs from voting... Democrats and other outspoken opponents of the law may have also contributed to the problem, seeing their criticism boomerang into confusion for would-be voters, Jones added."
So, the voter ID law didn't suppress voting... the lies and criticism of the law did. Let's look at the inverted situation, maybe make this more palatable for all of you: Georgia. Georgia had a runoff election after the general. Donald Trump claimed the whole election was a sham, his rhetoric discouraged his supporters from voting in the runoff, and Democrats won the senate. Right? It's not that Democrats depressed the vote by cheating, it was Trump's lies that did it. Everyone agree with that? So in Texas, the voter ID law didn't suppress the vote, in fact turnout is increasing over time. But among those who didn't vote, many didn't vote because Democrats told them the Republicans wouldn't let them vote. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't know how many (if any) are going to get this reference, but it really feels like they could add this as a verse in Lily The Pink.
What are your thoughts on the door-to-door ballot collection then? That's unofficial, done by unaccountable third parties? Republicans oppose it, Democrats are for it, you gonna find a way to rationalize siding with the Democrats again? (You probably are.)
Quit using things like "facts" and "evidence" and "proof"! That's not fair! Just accept Tstorm's arguments as gospel truth!