Feds are reportedly abducting people in portland

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Houseman

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even saying that being a journalist is no defense from being targeted during an unlawful assembly (an obvious violation of the constitution).
I'm genuinely curious, does being a journalist give you special rights and privileges when it comes to things like this?

Also, is there some kind of distinction between a rando blogger with a camera, vs someone who works for the Wall Street Journal or something like that?
 

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I'm genuinely curious, does being a journalist give you special rights and privileges when it comes to things like this?

Also, is there some kind of distinction between a rando blogger with a camera, vs someone who works for the Wall Street Journal or something like that?
Difference is based on intent and actions, under typical constitutional rulings it’s legal if your intent is to cover the issue as news for the public and you don’t take actions contradictory to that while you are there. So yes, some live streamers would be press, assuming there isn’t sufficient evidence that they were there for reasons other than covering the event as news.
Edit- it should be noted that the individuals I’m talking about are known local reporters, including a journalism professor, so the common right-wing argument is in no way applicable.
 

Houseman

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Difference is based on intent and actions, under typical constitutional rulings it’s legal if your intent is to cover the issue as news for the public and you don’t take actions contradictory to that while you are there. So yes, some live streamers would be press, assuming there isn’t sufficient evidence that they were there for reasons other than covering the event as news.
Edit- it should be noted that the individuals I’m talking about are known local reporters, including a journalism professor, so the common right-wing argument is in no way applicable.
So, for instance, if officers tell a protest that they must disperse, then they are legally obligated to disperse like everyone else, right? In other words, that order applies to them just as much as it does everyone else in attendance, right?
 

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I'm genuinely curious, does being a journalist give you special rights and privileges when it comes to things like this?

Also, is there some kind of distinction between a rando blogger with a camera, vs someone who works for the Wall Street Journal or something like that?
As far as I’ve been told (take it with a grain of salt) that journalist are meant to not be actually in the protest. They need press credentials and clear markings that they are press. They are usually to the side.... but this makes them easier to identify And target
 

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So, for instance, if officers tell a protest that they must disperse, then they are legally obligated to disperse like everyone else, right? In other words, that order applies to them just as much as it does everyone else in attendance, right?
Only if they're a member of the protest. Being nearby documenting does not constitute taking part in the protest and is a constitutionally protected right.

edit:

Leonard French covers a recent federal judge's ruling on this topic regarding the Portland protests

 

Trunkage

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Remember when Antifa got in trouble for cutting cords on cameras and microphones of press a few years ago? Pepperidge farm remembers... that the police are doing it worse
 

Houseman

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Being nearby documenting does not constitute taking part in the protest and is a constitutionally protected right.
That sounds fishy...

So, imagine a mob of people on the street, and journalists are on the sidewalks with cameras, filming. The policemen are on one side of the street, and they tell people to disperse, but they don't, so they deploy tear gas or water cannons, and march forward and start fighting with people.

And the journalists are supposed to be off-limits, standing on the sidewalk during all that?

That seems unfeasible... It seems like such situations are way too chaotic to be able to distinguish press from protester, even with markings.

And then if protesters are just pretending to be press, they might be able to get behind the police if they don't have to disperse with the rest of them, which is probably undesirable for the police.
 

Trunkage

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That sounds fishy...

So, imagine a mob of people on the street, and journalists are on the sidewalks with cameras, filming. The policemen are on one side of the street, and they tell people to disperse, but they don't, so they deploy tear gas or water cannons, and march forward and start fighting with people.

And the journalists are supposed to be off-limits, standing on the sidewalk during all that?

That seems unfeasible... It seems like such situations are way too chaotic to be able to distinguish press from protester, even with markings.

And then if protesters are just pretending to be press, they might be able to get behind the police if they don't have to disperse with the rest of them, which is probably undesirable for the police.
I think they’re supposed to be 50 meters away from protests. I’d also doubt they’ll be able to break police lines as well so I’d imagine some expectations for the press to move
 

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THEN THEN, not to be undone, the Biden campaign proceeds to triple down on anti-populism and offers zero reason to vote for them, in fact, taking reasons AWAY.

It almost feels like their advisors are both trying their hardest to throw the election, and it's MIND BOGGLING.
Democratic National Committee delegates voted 105-60 against including marijuana legalization in the party platform on Monday.
...
DNC delegates also overwhelmingly opposed an amendment backing “Medicare for All,” the health care system pushed by Sanders allies.

37765945_1073350769481792_709441680046030848_o.jpg
 
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Trunkage

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That sounds fishy...

So, imagine a mob of people on the street, and journalists are on the sidewalks with cameras, filming. The policemen are on one side of the street, and they tell people to disperse, but they don't, so they deploy tear gas or water cannons, and march forward and start fighting with people.

And the journalists are supposed to be off-limits, standing on the sidewalk during all that?

That seems unfeasible... It seems like such situations are way too chaotic to be able to distinguish press from protester, even with markings.

And then if protesters are just pretending to be press, they might be able to get behind the police if they don't have to disperse with the rest of them, which is probably undesirable for the police.
@Kyrian007 You have any experience in this, or one of your colleagues?
 

Kyrian007

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@Kyrian007 You have any experience in this, or one of your colleagues?
Gethsemani got it right earlier. Police do have practices to help protect us... but we do take responsibility when we cover events like protests or riots. And something he mentioned, the part about making sure we are identifiable as press, is something I'll admit we in general don't do very well. I'm not often called out for my credentials (I'm a studio/tech guy and newsroom editor) but in situations were I have to... all I have is a laminated card and a larger laminated lanyard with ID. For the most part we are out there in street cloths as well. On the other hand, the thing about protesters or criminals claiming they are the press... that doesn't happen. Cue all the "link report here" press haters out there, but on a larger scale it just doesn't happen. Reports of actual press getting harassed because police THINK they are lying are far more common than reports of people actually pretending to be the press.

I'm not sure if it is a widespread thing or not, but working with our police department and county sheriffs we have what are called 'staging areas.' They have a watch commander tell us where to set up. If we are in a staging area, we are off limits and have every right to be where we are filming whatever. It is pretty limited however, if we aren't in the designated staging area (which easily could be too far away for good video) or are in transit to or from a staging area... we're on our own. My news director got a face full of teargas during a protest... back in the 70's (so this isn't really just a recent problem.) In that incident he was not in a staging area, he was on his way there and was crossing through the protesters. He doesn't believe the use of tear gas was justified in that instance, but he also can't really claim police were attacking the press specifically. Of the recent protests in my city everything has been largely peaceful (a store window was broken, and a police helmet was damaged) so I really don't have any recent anecdotes outside of what I read from other news sources like anyone else.

Police attitude toward us in general though... varies greatly. For the most part we work together, in an effort to keep the public safe. In instances where that is the case everything is fine. That's stuff like traffic incidents, natural disasters, standoff situations, suspicious devices. But in instances where we are covering an investigation, or something like protests... they are in full obfuscate mode. A part of me can't blame them, they can get in an awful lot of trouble for saying the wrong thing and it is our job to ask questions that they would be pretty stupid to actually answer. Basically we ask a lot of "I know you are just going to shut us down with 'the investigation is ongoing'' questions. But when in cover their own ass mode they do tend to keep us from getting information the public would like to know.

As far as our Constitutional rights to cover events. It's actually a lot like freedom of speech, we have it but there are limits. We have the right to cover whatever, but no guarantee of safety in doing so (other than from government representatives themselves.) And if their actions inadvertently hinder or harm us, that's a matter for the courts (the government court system.) They set up their staging areas, we are free to leave those areas though. They just won't guarantee our safety outside of those areas. Also; we aren't free to break the law covering a story, and they can and will charge us with obstruction if we get in their way or put them in harm's way. And for the most part government's cooperation with the press isn't compulsory. Most legitimate news sources realize we will get far more information out of the police when we cooperate with them rather than just stick a camera and microphone in their face, causing them to shut down entirely. It's a delicate balance we (and they) have to walk. We have to work with them almost every day, but we also are what holds them accountable on the occasions when it is necessary.
 
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Revnak

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Gethsemani got it right earlier. Police do have practices to help protect us... but we do take responsibility when we cover events like protests or riots. And something he mentioned, the part about making sure we are identifiable as press, is something I'll admit we in general don't do very well. I'm not often called out for my credentials (I'm a studio/tech guy and newsroom editor) but in situations were I have to... all I have is a laminated card and a larger laminated lanyard with ID. For the most part we are out there in street cloths as well. On the other hand, the thing about protesters or criminals claiming they are the press... that doesn't happen. Cue all the "link report here" press haters out there, but on a larger scale it just doesn't happen. Reports of actual press getting harassed because police THINK they are lying are far more common than reports of people actually pretending to be the press.

I'm not sure if it is a widespread thing or not, but working with our police department and county sheriffs we have what are called 'staging areas.' They have a watch commander tell us where to set up. If we are in a staging area, we are off limits and have every right to be where we are filming whatever. It is pretty limited however, if we aren't in the designated staging area (which easily could be too far away for good video) or are in transit to or from a staging area... we're on our own. My news director got a face full of teargas during a protest... back in the 70's (so this isn't really just a recent problem.) In that incident he was not in a staging area, he was on his way there and was crossing through the protesters. He doesn't believe the use of tear gas was justified in that instance, but he also can't really claim police were attacking the press specifically. Of the recent protests in my city everything has been largely peaceful (a store window was broken, and a police helmet was damaged) so I really don't have any recent anecdotes outside of what I read from other news sources like anyone else.

Police attitude toward us in general though... varies greatly. For the most part we work together, in an effort to keep the public safe. In instances where that is the case everything is fine. That's stuff like traffic incidents, natural disasters, standoff situations, suspicious devices. But in instances where we are covering an investigation, or something like protests... they are in full obfuscate mode. A part of me can't blame them, they can get in an awful lot of trouble for saying the wrong thing and it is our job to ask questions that they would be pretty stupid to actually answer. Basically we ask a lot of "I know you are just going to shut us down with 'the investigation is ongoing'' questions. But when in cover their own ass mode they do tend to keep us from getting information the public would like to know.

As far as our Constitutional rights to cover events. It's actually a lot like freedom of speech, we have it but there are limits. We have the right to cover whatever, but no guarantee of safety in doing so (other than from government representatives themselves.) And if their actions inadvertently hinder or harm us, that's a matter for the courts (the government court system.) They set up their staging areas, we are free to leave those areas though. They just won't guarantee our safety outside of those areas. Also; we aren't free to break the law covering a story, and they can and will charge us with obstruction if we get in their way or put them in harm's way. And for the most part government's cooperation with the press isn't compulsory. Most legitimate news sources realize we will get far more information out of the police when we cooperate with them rather than just stick a camera and microphone in their face, causing them to shut down entirely. It's a delicate balance we (and they) have to walk. We have to work with them almost every day, but we also are what holds them accountable on the occasions when it is necessary.
Yeah, this all seems pretty similar to what I’ve read from the Portland local press. In their case they’ve kinda gone all in on the shoving cameras in police faces, so they’re unlikely to hold good relationships with them in the future, but most of them weren’t exactly covering police conduct in the past so they don’t much care. The police cannot say “you can’t be here” but the press can’t obstruct law enforcement. It’s a really delicate line but the Portland police have done such things as arresting a journalist for identifying a police officer on stream (notable thing, most of the journalists covering this, even those attached to larger outlets, are doing phone streams). They then hit him with federal charges for assaulting an officer, either as typical resisting arrest shit or based on the premise that identifying him was a legitimate threat (Portland Police have stopped using identifiable badge numbers or names on this logic). There have of course been many, many, many other arrests of journalists.
 

Seanchaidh

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Reports of actual press getting harassed because police THINK they are lying are far more common than reports of people actually pretending to be the press.
Press freedom is an individual right anyway, and any behavior it allows a member of the press should also be allowed to literally anyone else.

Because you're not special. You're just not. And everyone has a right to be heard, not just lanyard nerds.
 

Revnak

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Press freedom is an individual right anyway, and any behavior it allows a member of the press should also be allowed to literally anyone else.

Because you're not special. You're just not. And everyone has a right to be heard, not just lanyard nerds.
Well, in terms of literally how it works, it is an individual right so long as you are acting as press. It’s not like there was some separate legal category for journalists when the constitution was written. Freedom of the press is freedom to do news things. So long as you’re doing news things and not non-news things, they aren’t allowed to force you out of some public location.
 

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Gethsemani got it right earlier. Police do have practices to help protect us... but we do take responsibility when we cover events like protests or riots. And something he mentioned, the part about making sure we are identifiable as press, is something I'll admit we in general don't do very well. I'm not often called out for my credentials (I'm a studio/tech guy and newsroom editor) but in situations were I have to... all I have is a laminated card and a larger laminated lanyard with ID. For the most part we are out there in street cloths as well. On the other hand, the thing about protesters or criminals claiming they are the press... that doesn't happen. Cue all the "link report here" press haters out there, but on a larger scale it just doesn't happen. Reports of actual press getting harassed because police THINK they are lying are far more common than reports of people actually pretending to be the press.

I'm not sure if it is a widespread thing or not, but working with our police department and county sheriffs we have what are called 'staging areas.' They have a watch commander tell us where to set up. If we are in a staging area, we are off limits and have every right to be where we are filming whatever. It is pretty limited however, if we aren't in the designated staging area (which easily could be too far away for good video) or are in transit to or from a staging area... we're on our own. My news director got a face full of teargas during a protest... back in the 70's (so this isn't really just a recent problem.) In that incident he was not in a staging area, he was on his way there and was crossing through the protesters. He doesn't believe the use of tear gas was justified in that instance, but he also can't really claim police were attacking the press specifically. Of the recent protests in my city everything has been largely peaceful (a store window was broken, and a police helmet was damaged) so I really don't have any recent anecdotes outside of what I read from other news sources like anyone else.

Police attitude toward us in general though... varies greatly. For the most part we work together, in an effort to keep the public safe. In instances where that is the case everything is fine. That's stuff like traffic incidents, natural disasters, standoff situations, suspicious devices. But in instances where we are covering an investigation, or something like protests... they are in full obfuscate mode. A part of me can't blame them, they can get in an awful lot of trouble for saying the wrong thing and it is our job to ask questions that they would be pretty stupid to actually answer. Basically we ask a lot of "I know you are just going to shut us down with 'the investigation is ongoing'' questions. But when in cover their own ass mode they do tend to keep us from getting information the public would like to know.

As far as our Constitutional rights to cover events. It's actually a lot like freedom of speech, we have it but there are limits. We have the right to cover whatever, but no guarantee of safety in doing so (other than from government representatives themselves.) And if their actions inadvertently hinder or harm us, that's a matter for the courts (the government court system.) They set up their staging areas, we are free to leave those areas though. They just won't guarantee our safety outside of those areas. Also; we aren't free to break the law covering a story, and they can and will charge us with obstruction if we get in their way or put them in harm's way. And for the most part government's cooperation with the press isn't compulsory. Most legitimate news sources realize we will get far more information out of the police when we cooperate with them rather than just stick a camera and microphone in their face, causing them to shut down entirely. It's a delicate balance we (and they) have to walk. We have to work with them almost every day, but we also are what holds them accountable on the occasions when it is necessary.
Clearly the solution is that all reporters must wear a trench coat and have 5-o-clock shadow.
 

tstorm823

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A part of me can't blame them, they can get in an awful lot of trouble for saying the wrong thing and it is our job to ask questions that they would be pretty stupid to actually answer.
Are you sure your job isn't to get pictures of Spiderman?
 

Kyrian007

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Press freedom is an individual right anyway, and any behavior it allows a member of the press should also be allowed to literally anyone else.

Because you're not special. You're just not. And everyone has a right to be heard, not just lanyard nerds.
Nope, not quite correct. Press freedom, yes that's an individual right... but not everyone has the right to be heard. You can talk, that's your right. But no one HAS to listen to you. What makes us special, people want to listen to us. We're just better at being heard than you.
 
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Chimpzy

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Clearly the solution is that all reporters must wear a trench coat and have 5-o-clock shadow.
That can be easily confused with private eyes tho, so that'll need some workshopping.

What if they all wear a trilby or fedora hat? No, that's still very sleuth. What if they're all alcoholics who hang out in dive bars all the time ... no, that won't work either. Can't do glasses either, cuz they might be mistaken for Clark Kent/Superman and just assumed to be bulletproof. Maybe equip them with one of those old timey camera's with the giant flash on top?
 

Kyrian007

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That can be easily confused with private eyes tho, so that'll need some workshopping.

What if they all wear a trilby or fedora hat? No, that's still very sleuth. What if they're all alcoholics who hang out in dive bars all the time ... no, that won't work either. Can't do glasses either, cuz they might be mistaken for Clark Kent/Superman and just assumed to be bulletproof. Maybe equip them with one of those old timey camera's with the giant flash on top?
I actually have asked our promotions department for branded fedoras. They shoot me down every time. All they ever approve is baseball caps and polo shirts. The guys at our R&B station have $300 leather jackets and all we get are caps and polo shirts.
Are you sure your job isn't to get pictures of Spiderman?
Only Spiderman's job is to get pictures of Spiderman. I just get those from Getty.