Trump Directs FEDs to End Racial Bias Training In Move to Further Inflame Racial Tensions.

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Trunkage

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Yeah so I am definitely against the government teaching its workers to underserve or mistreat black people too. For sure.


Basically, the government has to be neutral. Just because society leans one way it doesn't change what neutrality is simply because by being neutral the scales tilt a certain way. This is the big thing with equity vs equality. Equity means your government is totalitarian and puts its hand on the scales to make things fair. That's not its job. It's also incapable of achieving this end, which in turn will make it turn more authoritarian in order to oppress people just the right amount to have them produce the result it seeks.

It's basically using the wrong tool for the job to task government to solve racism. The right tool is empathy and kindness being promoted societally and culturally.
You get that NOT doing anything is totalitarian, right? Like, the ’Right to Work’ law just made where you can be fired for being gay. Yay, what a win for religious freedom. The ’equality’ you want is specifically to have certain people have their rights taken away.

The government ’being neutral’ is not actually the government being neutral. Otherwise things like copyright would never exist. These laws are clearly designed for one set of people to control everyone else. Or any rights, for that matter

Pretend neutrality all you want. It's not what happens. Government is about triaging rights. Whose right is more important than others.
 

Dreiko

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You get that NOT doing anything is totalitarian, right? Like, the ’Right to Work’ law just made where you can be fired for being gay. Yay, what a win for religious freedom. The ’equality’ you want is specifically to have certain people have their rights taken away.

The government ’being neutral’ is not actually the government being neutral. Otherwise things like copyright would never exist. These laws are clearly designed for one set of people to control everyone else. Or any rights, for that matter

Pretend neutrality all you want. It's not what happens. Government is about triaging rights. Whose right is more important than others.
Government's actions of course have effects and because these effects occur in reality they will be as diverse as every other facet of things that occur in reality, but government shouldn't set out with that diversity as its intent. It should try its best to be neutral, even while knowing the result won't be, because that's as close to it as we can get and anything else will be just that much worse for how you control people in order to get there. Doing nothing means that at least those people you'd control won't have to be controlled now and inequity is gonna be inequity either way anyways.
 

Trunkage

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Government's actions of course have effects and because these effects occur in reality they will be as diverse as every other facet of things that occur in reality, but government shouldn't set out with that diversity as its intent. It should try its best to be neutral, even while knowing the result won't be, because that's as close to it as we can get and anything else will be just that much worse for how you control people in order to get there. Doing nothing means that at least those people you'd control won't have to be controlled now and inequity is gonna be inequity either way anyways.
I agree that what it should be neutral. I think you just need to go back to 1776 and tell them that. A lot of issue we have today is because they specifically designed a government that wasn't neutral.

Like, I really like Jefferson Wall. I think that how neutrality should look. That just not how most of the Constitution was made.
 

Hawki

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Even after that, we're still all free to disagree with Anita Sarkeesian, and we're free to think of racism in other terms. At the point we're creating ideological boogeymen and launching anti-intellectual crusades against them, it's really just a variant of demanding that people shouldn't be allowed to say what we disagree with.
I've never said that anyone shouldn't be allowed to say something. But to borrow a phrase, "I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."

Sarkeesian is free to state that women cannot be sexist. The world is free to agree or disagree with her. I personally don't agree with her, because if we define sexism as "prejudice based on gender," then that claim doesn't hold up.

And I'm not automatically going to assume its bad because 'all diversity training is bad', like you
I dunno if I said "all diversity training is bad," but all I can say is that based on reading actual diversity training documents, plus what academic articles have been stating for years, I can either:

a) Listen to the academics

b) Don't listen

Usually, I choose a. For instance, I can't prove by myself that climate change is occurring, but since a lot of people who study climate for a living are saying that it is, and people on the ground have observed shifts in rainfall patterns, Arctic sea ice melt, land erosion, and everything else, I have to assume that it is. If you want to prove that it isn't happening, then you'd need to give me convincing data.

Of course, the difference is that diversity training hasn't affected me or anyone personally yet, but trust me, local government has plenty of ways to get me to spend hours on useless shit, with those people having triple digit salaries. Still, what happens in the United States affects the rest of the world.

I think if individual companies want to do this sort of thing that's fine but the federal government is supposed to represent everyone and that includes people who don't care for such training so you shouldn't be forcing them to support something they disagree with on the grounds that it's totalitarian and uses critical race theory which they disagree with.

Personally, I would enjoy such training because I like being exposed to things I see as dumb and I disagree with, I get a kick out of seeing people say dumb things. Though I do agree that spending all this money to entertain workers is probably not wise.
I don't think there's any scenario where it would be optional. If it was, there wouldn't be a problem. But these kinds of things are never optional.

This isn't just diversity training, it's how organizations operate. For instance, at work, I have to do a quarterly work plan - everyone hates it, everyone agrees it's a waste of time, everyone begrudgingly uses the same weasel words ("I will reflect the values of the Council in my everyday activities") but it has to be done all the same. And the thing is, a lot of the time, we have to do it on our own time (ergo unpaid work) or do it on our shifts, which means actual productivity goes down. Everyone knows it's wasting our time, but we have to do it anyway, because people who don't actually work on the ground so to speak insist that it's required.

IThey need to do this as well as track and gauge effectiveness of implementation so they can identify problems as they arise and address them and remove those who repeatedly refuse to address their own issues being impacted by unconscious bias.
I know this isn't how the world works, but ideally, that's what an organization should be doing anyway. Of course, not sure how you actually track uncncious bias, but in theory, there's a system of accountability.

Capitalism, democracy, and Rights are faulty too. None of them remotely match reality. Should we get rid of them too?
Some people are seriously calling for those things, so that isn't entirely a hypothetical.

The question isn't getting rid of something as to whether it's perfect or not, it's whether it's cost effective or not. I certainly wouldn't mind losing capitalism if a better system replaced it (frankly, I think we really need to replace capitalism or alter it, but whatever it is, it wouldn't be communism or socialism) for instance. But again, the question is this:

"Is bias training cost-effective?"

Again, a lot of what I've read has indicated that it isn't, that it generates short-term gains at best, or backfire effect at worst. If I go into bias training, and come out of the training even more biased, then something's gone horribly wrong. This shouldn't be that difficult a question, because we make trade-offs all the time.
 

Agema

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Critical theory is entirely faulty reasoning. Is that better phrasing for you?
Critical theory was a response to modes of analysis that were themselves limited or flawed; as these intellectual frameworks missed things out or failed to come to satisfactory answers, it was necessary to create another approach.

This is to a degree a bit like the (somewhat unfairly) much maligned postmodernism. An example is the traditional idea of history, which for the USA is a bunch of white dudes popping over from Europe, doing heroic things to overcome trials and tribulations to build a great nation. It is obvious to us now that this isn't quite how Native Americans and black people see the USA, where land dispossession and slavery were more than regrettable and unfortunate bumps along the road to awesomeness. For that matter, it's not even history as was experienced by most of the white populace. But it's only clear to us because some people took new approaches.

This traditional view of history was a skewed one that represented certain people's ideas and perspectives, whilst excluding many others. Therefore, to better understand history, it would be necessary to view it from other perspectives and with other ideas. This is the source of the ongoing cultural battle about things like white guilt, because once other people were allowed to speak, we went from this heroic notion of white history to a much wider appreciation. Naturally, this meant a more murky, less glorious idea of what our white ancestors got up to, and the (descendants of) winners are evidently not happy when they don't get sole rights to write history any more. My sympathy for them is severely limited.

So when I say critical theory should not be dismissed, what I mean is that the reasons for hating critical theory aren't necessarily that it's wrong or invalid, but that it is not understood by people who want to criticise it, and that it comes out with things that people just don't want to hear because it messes with the tidy narrative they have had instilled in them by their upbringing and political leanings. It is one of many ways of looking at the world, in parallel with others, for us to intellectually chew on, because without alternative perspectives we miss a lot of stuff we could think about. So there will be critical theory "specialist" thinkers, and thinkers who will combine insights from critical theory with other perspectives to synthesise more holistic views. Destroying the former achieves nothing but to to destroy the latter too, making us intellectually poorer.

But the nature of politics is such that people are happy to destroy truth and ideas when they interfere with their political ambitions, and let's really not pretend that opposition to critical theory isn't intensely political. That's what all this talk about "cultural Marxism" is about. It's a political animosity, not an intellectual one.
 
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Agema

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I've never said that anyone shouldn't be allowed to say something. But to borrow a phrase, "I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
So who did stop you disagreeing with Anita Sarkeesian?
 

tstorm823

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Capitalism, democracy, and Rights are faulty too. None of them remotely match reality. Should we get rid of them too?
Those aren't remotely comparable things. Those are solutions to difficult problems. Critical theory is just obfuscation of difficult problems.
It manifestly isn't, though, so you're just wrong.
You mean it makes arguments for communism, so you support it.
This is to a degree a bit like the (somewhat unfairly) much maligned postmodernism. An example is the traditional idea of history, which for the USA is a bunch of white dudes popping over from Europe, doing heroic things to overcome trials and tribulations to build a great nation. It is obvious to us now that this isn't quite how Native Americans and black people see the USA, where land dispossession and slavery were more than regrettable and unfortunate bumps along the road to awesomeness. For that matter, it's not even history as was experienced by most of the white populace. But it's only clear to us because some people took new approaches.

This traditional view of history was a skewed one that represented certain people's ideas and perspectives, whilst excluding many others. Therefore, to better understand history, it would be necessary to view it from other perspectives and with other ideas. This is the source of the ongoing cultural battle about things like white guilt, because once other people were allowed to speak, we went from this heroic notion of white history to a much wider appreciation. Naturally, this meant a more murky, less glorious idea of what our white ancestors got up to, and the (descendants of) winners are evidently not happy when they don't get sole rights to write history any more. My sympathy for them is severely limited.
History as told is admittedly full of lies and untruths. That much is true. "History as written by the victors" is not a good truth measurement. But you know what else isn't a good truth measurement? "History as written by the defeated." (I'm just going for an antonym to "victors", I'm aware there's a bunch of baggage in that sentence depending on specific phrasing, please don't get stuck on that.) Frankly, it's deliberate lies to separate the world into oppressor and oppressed for Seanchaidh to get excited by, but ignoring intent and just going into it being wrong, that's why it's wrong. If you begin with the perspective that the "winners" in history are inherently bad actors responsible for all ails, you're not even aiming for the truth. You can take a minority perspective on history, or race, or politics using perfectly traditional modes of analysis, and sometimes that will line up with critical theory by accident, but "those with power can do no good" isn't any more respectable than "those with power can do no wrong." The analysis is wrong on purpose.
So when I say critical theory should not be dismissed, what I mean is that the reasons for hating critical theory aren't necessarily that it's wrong or invalid, but that it is not understood by people who want to criticise it, and that it comes out with things that people just don't want to hear because it messes with the tidy narrative they have had instilled in them by their upbringing and political leanings. It is one of many ways of looking at the world, in parallel with others, for us to intellectually chew on, because without alternative perspectives we miss a lot of stuff we could think about. So there will be critical theory "specialist" thinkers, and thinkers who will combine insights from critical theory with other perspectives to synthesise more holistic views. Destroying the former achieves nothing but to to destroy the latter too, making us intellectually poorer.

But the nature of politics is such that people are happy to destroy truth and ideas when they interfere with their political ambitions, and let's really not pretend that opposition to critical theory isn't intensely political. That's what all this talk about "cultural Marxism" is about. It's a political animosity, not an intellectual one.
It comes up with fiction, Agema. You're praising people for considering fiction. And you know what, it's not necessarily bad to consider fiction, so I'll give you that, but you ought to consider what you're saying about politics with regards to critical theory. Did you not see the part where people employing critical race theory dismissed rational thinking as "internalized whiteness"? Critical theory exists to make up narratives that contradict traditional narratives. You can't synthesize something meaningful from smushing deliberate opposites together, you just end up in a world of no truth where nothing makes sense or matters. And while you're getting swayed into that perspective, those employing critical theory exclusively are dismissing any of the methods that actually seek truth.
 

Seanchaidh

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You mean it makes arguments for communism, so you support it.
It doesn't, so far as I'm aware. And yet!

Also, that is extremely not an argument.

Did you not see the part where people employing critical race theory dismissed rational thinking as "internalized whiteness"?
Somehow I don't think you've understood the point those people were making, irrespective of its relation to CRT. Granted, academics of all stripes could do a lot better at speaking plainly. As far as I remember (but only vaguely) the point being made was about rationality considered more as a brand than a quality of thought. And scientific racism is a pretty big example of rationality as superficial brand. And that shit continues today with the likes of Charles Murray and Sam Harris who cloak some fairly egregious dogshit in just that scientific tone without any scientific rigor.
 
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09philj

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The evidence that it actually did anything to tackle people's prejudices was dubious at best, but for some reason I've got this crazy hunch that desiring a robust, evidence based approach to reducing systemic and subconscious racial prejudice in public services was not at the forefront of Trump's mind when he announced this. In fact, I don't think he's interested in doing anything about racism in the US at all.
 

Hawki

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So who did stop you disagreeing with Anita Sarkeesian?
No-one. I don't even know why you brought that up, I disagreed with her in the next paragraph. But the point of the statement is that CRT and its associated philosophies often operate under the idea of 'authority from identity.' That inherent traits make you more qualified to speak on an issue than others.
It doesn't, so far as I'm aware. And yet!
A philosophy that sorts people into oppressor and oppressed? Gee, if only there was a name for that...

To be clear, I don't think CRT leads to communism, or inherently leads to anything, but it's eerilly similar to Marxism, to the point that I recall reading how Marxists criticized CRT because it put more focus on race than class issues.
 

dreng3

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Those aren't remotely comparable things. Those are solutions to difficult problems. Critical theory is just obfuscation of difficult problems.


History as told is admittedly full of lies and untruths. That much is true. "History as written by the victors" is not a good truth measurement. But you know what else isn't a good truth measurement? "History as written by the defeated." (I'm just going for an antonym to "victors", I'm aware there's a bunch of baggage in that sentence depending on specific phrasing, please don't get stuck on that.) Frankly, it's deliberate lies to separate the world into oppressor and oppressed for Seanchaidh to get excited by, but ignoring intent and just going into it being wrong, that's why it's wrong. If you begin with the perspective that the "winners" in history are inherently bad actors responsible for all ails, you're not even aiming for the truth. You can take a minority perspective on history, or race, or politics using perfectly traditional modes of analysis, and sometimes that will line up with critical theory by accident, but "those with power can do no good" isn't any more respectable than "those with power can do no wrong." The analysis is wrong on purpose.

Some would argue that being critical of an established system is the very first step toward solutions, in which case CRT is an important tool.

I also think that you're skipping over an important part in your depiction of CRT as claiming that "those with power can do no good". The issue is rather that those with power are relying on a system that is structured in such as way as to disenfranchise, discriminate, and exclude some people who could gain power. This lays the foundation for a series of speculations on whether or not that is true, whether their deriving power from a discriminatory system inherently make them complicit, whether or not we can provide incentives for those with power to change, and a slew of other questions that we should ask.

While CRT might not be the best approach to issues of systemic racial inequality the mere act of having people consider it, of letting someone see the world from a different point of view, even if they reject it later on, is a positive.
As humans we need a lot of different input and we need to challenge our preconceptions in order to move forwards and improve. CRT is one method of doing so.
 

Agema

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Frankly, it's deliberate lies to separate the world into oppressor and oppressed
Why?

Although actually, don't bother because that's a caricature rather than reality. Let's be more precise: critical theory is about identifying and analysing oppressive structures in society that limit people's freedoms in order to propose improvements. What's wrong with that?

It comes up with fiction, Agema...

Critical theory exists to make up narratives that contradict traditional narratives.
Ah, so there we have it. It's all narratives, it's just you assume your narratives are true and other people's aren't.

No-one. I don't even know why you brought that up, I disagreed with her in the next paragraph.
Well she doesn't have real authority then.

But the point of the statement is that CRT and its associated philosophies often operate under the idea of 'authority from identity.' That inherent traits make you more qualified to speak on an issue than others.
Okay, that's a more interesting notion. But isn't it sensible to consider that when we want to discuss real people's lives, the perspective of the people living them should occupy a distinct and important place in our understanding - or, if you like, have a form of authority?

The flipside of what you're talking about is people being told what their lives are about by others. Isn't that what "mansplaining" is? Although mansplaining is really more a form of humour, there are serious problems. For instance, a social sciences study generating quantitative data is actually likely to destroy or change certain information (through things like criteria chosen by the researchers and methods of analysis) which can portray a misleading picture of what the subjects believe. But that study then has authority: authority which can even be turned against the subjects to tell them what they believe contrary to their own opinions.

We can be absolutely sure that most denizens of this forum would do so in the blink of an eye, because they have faith in the authority of studies (including in an extreme form scientism). And this faith might be why a critical theorist could argue that science and rational thinking can be a form of oppression. And it even has a real history of being used to justify oppression, such as the grim history of racial IQ studies and so on.

I would obviously not argue that there's an improvement through making identity or personal subjective experience the be all and end all either, but I have no objections to it existing parallel with others.
 

Seanchaidh

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I would obviously not argue that there's an improvement through making identity or personal subjective experience the be all and end all either, but I have no objections to it existing parallel with others.
How prominent even is standpoint epistemology in CRT? I don't know, but I'm reasonably certain that the people disparaging CRT don't know either.
 

SupahEwok

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Ah, so there we have it. It's all narratives, it's just you assume your narratives are true and other people's aren't.
Sounds like lies. Dirty, dirty lies.
/s
No, I'm still not over it.
 

Houseman

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An example of what might be removed, for your consideration:


There's even a video if you think that this is photoshopped:

 

Houseman

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This is conservatism in a single image.

See how easy it is?
I'm not criticizing critical race theory or making any sweeping statements about it. I'm just showing an example of the kind of thing that Trump might want to get rid of.
If you have issues with the commentary provided by the guy who made the tweet, take it up with him.
 

Agema

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I'm just showing an example of the kind of thing that Trump might want to get rid of.
If you have issues with the commentary provided by the guy who made the tweet, take it up with him.
It's your responsibility to ensure the usefulness of your sources. If you use ones that suck to make your point, that's on you.