The Trump Who Stole Christmas. Trump tanks Stimulus Talks, No COVID-19 Relief= Millions Lose Access to Food, Shelter and Medicine

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Houseman

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Republicans certainly had a hand in that. By doing things like fighting against a minimum wage increase, and removing housing assistance for lower income people,
I would think that every administration has been having a hand in that, since wages have stayed stagnant while housing costs have been steadily rising since 1970



If republicans had in hand in it, so did democrats.
Or maybe neither of them are at fault, and it's just people preying on each-other.
 

SupahEwok

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Agnostic forum members, when Atheist Forum Members go on a rant about how dumb Religion and how anyone who believes in Religion is stupid, do you start to believe in Religion a little bit more and think that Religious Forum Members are smarter than previously thought?
Yes.
 

Trunkage

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General mocking, accusing him of lying, threatening to put him on your ignore list (page 4)
You've done at least the first two in the last week. Seems to be standard fair on this site

Edit: Compared to other places, other than positive Covid test thread, we do minimal mocking of the president. That thread went too far
 
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Trunkage

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I would think that every administration has been having a hand in that, since wages have stayed stagnant while housing costs have been steadily rising since 1970



If republicans had in hand in it, so did democrats.
Or maybe neither of them are at fault, and it's just people preying on each-other.
There are many reasons. Trickle down economics is a major one, mainly because it doesn't actually trickle down. It mainly trickled up, who then spent heaps of money on housing, making real estate inflated. It isn't profitable to make a basic home, so you gotta deluxe it out, making it way more expensive. Definitely Dems are at fault with Glass Steagall. But even good programs like FDIC has some fault as it gave some people confidence to make risky bets and it failed because it didn't maintain its maximum payout. I'm pretty sure the 30 year loan structure was a FDR thing with institutions like Fanny Mae. This didn't match the needs of the people and encouraged risky financial instruments. General population growth doesn't help, along with urban planning problems. Even things like dismantling of the psych wards is at fault. They were an absolute blight and killed and tortured many unnecessarily but dumping them on the streets doesn't help either. In true American fashion, they remove problematic programs without putting in something in to replace it, making everything worse. Looking at you De Joy

And just general Capitalism that exploits weaknesses in the law for profit
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I would think that every administration has been having a hand in that, since wages have stayed stagnant while housing costs have been steadily rising since 1970



If republicans had in hand in it, so did democrats.
Or maybe neither of them are at fault, and it's just people preying on each-other.
Ugh, mother fucker I hate the stupid drafts, I had a half formed thought about this then decided I didn't want to bother. Although interestingly while it goes up, you tend to see it even out with democrats and you tend to see spikes with republicans.
 

Kwak

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It's being suggested that the mega-steroids the dingbat in chief is on are having an effect on his judgement, probably due to his manic twitter activity over the last 24 hours.
 

Cheetodust

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I looked briefly but didn't find anything.

I did, however, find a separate graph where average wages fell during Obama, and rose during Trump.

The point is that this graph has been going in this direction since 1970. I thought this was old news. Costs go up, wages remain static. This isn't a Trump or an Obama problem.

"I lost my job and pay too much in rent and didn't get a stimulus check that could have meant that I could afford rent therefore Trump himself made me homeless!" Is a silly thing to say, is all.
Average wages mean literally nothing. Ireland has quite high average earnings. Unfortunately we also have the 5th highest concentration of billionaires in the world and our median earnings are way down. The only people who use average are neolibs and conservatives trying to disguise the fact that the rich have all our money.
 
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Houseman

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Average wages mean literally nothing. Ireland has quite high average earnings. Unfortunately we also have the 5th highest concentration of billionaires in the world and our median earnings are way down. The only people who use average are neolibs and conservatives trying to disguise the fact that the rich have all our money.

Okay, here's median instead of average.



I don't see any difference here.

I really thought that this was common knowledge.
 

stroopwafel

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I would think that every administration has been having a hand in that, since wages have stayed stagnant while housing costs have been steadily rising since 1970



If republicans had in hand in it, so did democrats.
Or maybe neither of them are at fault, and it's just people preying on each-other.
It's the exact same where I live as well. It can only be partially explained by supply & demand. The only commonality between U.S. and Dutch public spending is debt. Same for most other developed countries. The central banks buy and sell that debt as securities, print more money into the economy and suppress interest rates to make loans cheaper. This 'extra' money should be reimbursed but ofcourse it never will because countries will only make more debt. Banks saddle people with astronomic mortgages and this drives up housing prices even further. This shit accumulates as inflation but no longer for currency but excessive housing prices that in no way reflect actual value. That is why it seems like governments can spend like a crazy person, the central banks even encourage this with negative interest rates, but the ghost of inflation just manifest in a different way.

It's a fucking joke. Governments no longer run the show, the capital markets do. Those are ultimately the ones who will urge on 'reforms' ie cuts in public spending. And guess who will carry the burden of that? There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
 
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Casual Shinji

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It's being suggested that the mega-steroids the dingbat in chief is on are having an effect on his judgement, probably due to his manic twitter activity over the last 24 hours.
That's an insult to mega-steroids. You're making mega-steroids cry.
 

Agema

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It's the exact same where I live as well. It can only be partially explained by supply & demand. The only commonality between U.S. and Dutch public spending is debt. Same for most other developed countries. The central banks buy and sell that debt as securities, print more money into the economy and suppress interest rates to make loans cheaper. This 'extra' money should be reimbursed but ofcourse it never will because countries will only make more debt. Banks saddle people with astronomic mortgages and this drives up housing prices even further. This shit accumulates as inflation but no longer for currency but excessive housing prices that in no way reflect actual value. That is why it seems like governments can spend like a crazy person, the central banks even encourage this with negative interest rates, but the ghost of inflation just manifest in a different way.
Sort of. But with astronomical mortgages comes astronomically valuable property assets. For every $500,000 dollars to buy a house comes $500,000 worth of house. If someone needs, they can sell their house and their debt goes with it. The big danger, of course, is a decrease in housing value and negative equity.

Interest rates do matter here: due to the above, what matters is not the absolute price and consequent debt but the ability to afford monthly payments. If mortgage repayments take up 20% of salaries in 1985 and 20% in 2020, houses are just as affordable as they were. That the house value:salary ratio may have grown is neither here nor there. I find this idea that houses don't reflect actual value odd, as this seems quite like Marxist economics. Conventionally, the value of anything is what people will pay you for it, pretty much nothing more and nothing less. Gold, tractors or bananas no more have "actual value" than houses: all the gold in the world isn't worth anything if no-one wants it. The rationale of low interest rates and easy credit is simply flexibility and growth. You want to invest in something you can get the money now rather than have to save up (by which time the opportunity may well have disappeared) or sell something of value. If you're going through a tight spot and need to borrow, you can get through rather than go under. So yes, we have an economy fuelled by debt. But where that debt is backed by assets, it's often not remotely so bad as it looks.

Where I suspect there's an issue is as people invest in property, those assets become important - as per the above of the danger of a decrease in property value. The obvious interest of the government is to ensure property prices do not decline, because homeowners as an extremely large and powerful voter demographic, will absolutely hate it as they see themselves getting poorer. Consequently, I think the government has been perfectly happy with contrained development of new housing stock to keep house prices buoyant.
 

Cheetodust

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Average wages mean literally nothing. Ireland has quite high average earnings. Unfortunately we also have the 5th highest concentration of billionaires in the world and our median earnings are way down. The only people who use average are neolibs and conservatives trying to disguise the fact that the rich have all our money.
I didn't make a single reference to your graph. I responded to your claim that average wages went up under trump. The key indicator that my response has nothing to do with either of your graphs is that both of them end in 2016 and demonstrate nothing about Median or average wages under Trump. You know, because he took office in January 2017. Which is after 2016, where your graphs end.

I responded to one claim you made. "Average wages went up under Trump and fell under Obama". I pointed out that that means nothing because average wages means nothing. And you responded with another graph that doesn't cover trump's time in office. It's also important to note that the rate of median wage growth relative to cost of living and inflation are also a big factor. You can get more money in your pocket but if your diabetes medicine now costs you a week's salary and your rent has gone up by 10% then that's not really much help. Like currently I earn about 2.5 times what I earned in 2008. But in 2008 my rent cost me about 1/3 of my wages. Now it costs about 2/3. Now that's because my government, a large number of whom are landlords might do token things like increase minimum wage by 0.9%. But then they follow up by introducing "rent pressure zones" which means that landlords can't increase rent by more than 4% year on year. That is unless they carry out "substantial works". Which my landlord decided changing the architraves around our living area doors qualified. (Fun fact he actually just swapped them!) That meant he could raise the rent by whatever. The real fun part of this combo was that landlords can reclaim ALL of the VAT from substantial works. Meaning they can spend a few hundred, get almost a quarter back and the earn thousands extra in rent. Also because I feel I should say, fuck Obama, fuck Biden and fuck all of the neo libs who do literally the exact same shit but are just slightly less bad than the trump administration. If I had my way every political term would end I a trial to decide if you get the death penalty or just life in prison.

You might also notice that 4% is bigger than 0.9%. By like a lot. Isn't it weird that we talk about how small businesses will be killed by paying their staff an extra €4 a week but not bat an eye when that same employee has to pay an extra €7 a week in rent.
 
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Cheetodust

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Oh okay.

Here's median wages under Trump, as opposed to average wages.

Wow, Obama managed to unfuck his own mess. Sure am glad we gave him a fucking Nobel. I would point out that being handed office at the beginning of a global recession you can't pin the wages thing entirely on Obama although the fact that median was so far below the average kinda proves my point about average being meaningless. I'd also point out that trump just continued an upward trend that he inherited so yay for not actively undoing it I guess. Isn't it funny that it always goes up in an election year? Like politicians know we have short memories.
 

Houseman

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I would point out that being handed office at the beginning of a global recession you can't pin the wages thing entirely on Obama
I wasn't planning on it. I just made an off-hand comment that wages rose under Trump. You pressed me to back it up, and so I have.
 

ObsidianJones

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Wow, Obama managed to unfuck his own mess. Sure am glad we gave him a fucking Nobel. I would point out that being handed office at the beginning of a global recession you can't pin the wages thing entirely on Obama although the fact that median was so far below the average kinda proves my point about average being meaningless. I'd also point out that trump just continued an upward trend that he inherited so yay for not actively undoing it I guess. Isn't it funny that it always goes up in an election year? Like politicians know we have short memories.
No, no, bud. You don't have to go that far. Just answer fire with fire.


So, going back to World War 2, Trump owns the biggest job loss on record.

Now you have to just wait and see what happens next. Will the response be that the actions of the world not matter, therefore while damning Obama for the average Wage, it gives Trump no excuse for the loss of Jobs? Or do we say world circumstances matter, thereby excusing both Obama and Trump... thereby taking away a point.

Or the Mental Gymnastics and the Goal Post moving. You see, the fun is in waiting to see what Present you'll be gifted. Like a really depressing Christmas!