15-year old Stabs Bully 11 Times at Bus Stop, Gets Away With It

[Quaidis]

At first I was unsure about the whole thing and the kid getting off on killing.

But then I read the whole article. He clearly showed that he had no intention to fight. Got off early to avoid it. Was chased down by the bully and the bully's friends. Was slugged in the back of the head. Tried to get away. THEN stabbed. With all that, showing the knife on the bus may have been a last ditch hope to escape the whole thing. A cry of, "Look, I have a weapon and I intend to use it to protect myself. Tell him this so maybe he will back off."

And there are so many other factors that could have stopped this. If the kids saw that this other kid had a knife, they could have told the person driving the bus. It could have been taken away. They could have warned the bully the 'few stops ahead' if they were to get off. And in the stabbing itself, twelve stabs is pretty hefty. Why weren't the bully's friends immediately on the one guy the second he started going stab crazy? There were multiple people there that could have stopped the stabber.

 

[Rule Britannia]

He deserved whatever was coming to him but he didn't deserve that, if he was beaten with brass knuckles or a blunt instrument or even just went beast mode on him with his fists I would see nothing other than justice.

 

[omega 616]

Can I ask a question to all the American's? What if the kid had took his dad's gun instead of a knife? Would that change your views at all?

On topic. I think 11 times is a little much but I think I get why he went a little psycho. It obviously happened over a year or something of constant bullying and then when he got hit in the head he just "saw red" and released all his pent up frustration ... then saw more red!

I think he shouldn't get off like he egged a car, I think he should get some serious counseling, not only about being bullied but about killing as well ... don't want him getting suicidal over it or going on a rampage the next time he gets picked on.

No, apart from the fact that it's as illegal as fucking hell to:
A. Steal a firearm
B. Conceal a firearm without a CCWP
C. Bring a firearm into a school without requisite licensing
D. Be a minor in possession of a firearm

He should be punished for the above, yes, but using it in self-defense; no.

I mean apart from having the gun on his person, what do American's think of it. I should have been more clear on that.

He deserved whatever was coming to him but he didn't deserve that, if he was beaten with brass knuckles or a blunt instrument or even just went beast mode on him with his fists I would see nothing other than justice.

You think bras knuckles, a blunt instrument or even bare fists can't kill in a single blow? Baseball bats are very lethal, I have heard two stories of people being killed by 1 punch (not by a boxer or even a trained person) just hit them too hard in the wrong spot and dead.

Can even kill somebody by pushing them over, they fall and bang there head and it's game over!

 

[Jumpingbean3]

ITT: People siding with assholes.

How about siding with neither? Bullying is bad, I've been bullied a lot when I was a kid, to the point where I was afraid of going out when there were people around; but I wasn't going to fucking kill anyone for it.

And if that bully barged into your home and started attacking you?

How many bullies do you know that have barged into your home and attacked you? Yeah I've had them threaten to come to my home but they didn't because a) even an idiot knows that would be a bad move because someone I know might be there who'll kick the shit out of them or b) that's going to far for them. Also, where in the report does it say the bully barged into his home? If you're going to make a "what if you..." argument it should have to do with something that happened in this incident.

"ITT: People siding with assholes" means exactly what it says on the tin. It doesn't mean you're either siding with or against them. It just means there's a bunch of people in here siding with the asshole bully. Which is 100% blatantly true.

It also means there's a bunch of people siding with a someone who was killed for taunting and bunching someone (and yeah that's a really shitty thing to do and bullies deserve to get the snot beaten out of them but this is disproportionate retribution in the extreme) as well as his family or maybe just siding with the family and not the victim at all and interpreting that as simply "people siding with assholes" makes you look like an asshole yourself. EDIT: Just to be clear I'm not saying you are an asshole because I don't know you well enough to make such judgements but what you're saying hardly makes you sound like a nice guy.

 

[Sentox6]

Well, here in Germany, there are numerous ways to pinpoint the needs and wants of the majority. For one, we have more than two political parties, so its a much more precise affair. For two, we have a lot of surveys on this kinda shit. And guess what? The majority like having a police force, they like our law books and courts, they like being able to go to the police to report crimes. Thats how I know.

Because, obviously, appreciating the presence of a police force is entirely tantamount to be happy with the prevailing laws surrounding self-defense and the definition thereof.

I just can't really comprehend the naivety of the idea that a multi-party democracy must consequently mean that the views of the majority are reflected in all aspects of the law. Perhaps my viewpoint is tarnished by living in a country where the government has outright ignored the majority viewpoint on social issues (as defined by surveys, submissions to policy commissions, etc), but even a first year politics student can identify that there is a lot more to the system than majority elects party, party does everything majority wants.

The same thing, to an extent, holds true for the US. But since its you making the more outrageous claim, im going to dodge your question and turn the whole thing around; I would like you to provide me with information that suggests or proves the majority of the people in the US would prefer your system.

Yes, turn it around. It's not like I've already said that the majority of people probably don't agree with my system. I'm applauding you, honestly. Brilliant debating.

But. This is the important part. All of the above is completely irrelevant to our discussion and this thread. This is about whether our little murderer should be charged as such or not. You still have not put forth one compelling reason as to why he should not. And thats my second question for you. Why should this kid not be charged as a murderer? I know under your system he would not be, but we are not using your system.

Well, apparently under the system used in his locality he wasn't either. I'm sure if you present your compelling case of "well he killed someone" they'll turn right around and try him as a murderer though.

A kid is bullied. In a subsequent incident, he gets punched in the back of the head. This could easily cause brain damage or even kill someone if they fell onto a hard surface. Self-defence is absolutely a viable reason for attacking someone in return. I realise under your system he should have allowed his attackers to continue inflicting violence upon him and hope no permanent damage (or worse) resulted before the all-perfect police force showed up to save him and admonish the poor bullies (who, I imagine, are just victims of circumstance when all is said and done).

Personally, though, the only real point of contention I can make out is that he stabbed the bully 11 times, and in an emotionally charged situation (we're not talking about adults here, either), when someone is violently assaulted by a previous tormenter, perhaps, just perhaps, they might not be in the appropriate state of mind to calmly judge a suitable level of force to use.

There's quite a big difference between judging someone from behind your computer and actually being in a life-threatening situation.

 

[Delicious Anathema]

A bit overkill, but bullies are scum anyways. A serious beating with a pipe would be enough though.

 

[Carboncrown]

Furthermore, I'd actually argue that his life was not in danger, given that
1) This was not the first time he was bullied, what's suddenly gonna provoke murder?
2) The bullies knew there'd be no way for them to get away with it.

And finally, I'm not suggesting the electric chair. Just a little more that nothing.

1) How do you know *this time* won't be the time they go too far?
2) What does that mean?

1)How likely is that really? How often does bullying escalate to homicide, 'cause here in Finland, I'd say that's pretty close to zero.
2)I'm saying the bullies would be caught. There was multiple witnesses to the planned fight. Surely they mean to kill him.

That last part was sarcasm.

 

[senordesol]

I mean apart from having the gun on his person, what do American's think of it. I should have been more clear on that.

Obviously I can't speak for all Americans, but let's see if this is clear enough: No one. NO FUCKING PERSON (let alone four) has the right to lay hands on me for no reason. If I try to avoid them, if I try to disengage, but they remain dedicated to their cause and I happened to be armed; they've made my decision for me.

 

[Baby Tea]

ITT: People siding with assholes.

How about siding with neither? Bullying is bad, I've been bullied a lot when I was a kid, to the point where I was afraid of going out when there were people around; but I wasn't going to fucking kill anyone for it.

Bingo.
I was bullied quite a bit, and did what I could to get away.
But to bring a knife? And stab the guy?! I can't agree with the action.

However, as much as I hate the outcome, I will say this: Some people only speak one language. I was lucky enough that most of my bullies could be talked out of doing anything major. I could act like a goof-off, or say just the right thing to the right people to stave off being beaten up. Not everyone is so easily persuaded. Some people only speak the language of violence. They want to fight and hurt you, and nothing will dissuade them, even if you've done nothing to deserve it. (If anyone can't agree to that, then I think they're naive.)

I say that because I 100% 'get' fighting back. Slug the guy, or do what you have to to make sure you get out as hurt as little as possible. That might seem contradictory to my opening paragraph, but throwing a punch and getting in a brawl is a heck of a lot different then stabbing a guy in the chest. Not only that, but he brought a knife in preparation for said stabbing. Maybe he was hoping he didn't have to use it, but by even bringing by it along he was saying that it was possible. That shouldn't have even crossed his mind.

I feel bad for the bully and his family. Being a prick is being a prick, but it doesn't deserve death. A shot to the mouth? A sucker punch to the eye? Sure. Brawl it out. But not death. That is far too severe a punishment.

And I also feel bad for the victim. If the kid is as 'innocent' of heart as the article and judge make him out to be, then this can be an extremely scarring ordeal. He took the life of another human being. That's a serious, significant thing to have happened. And I hope that it doesn't negatively effect him or his future.

 

[Idocreating]

Eleven times being stabbed was not out of fear or misguided action, it was out of hatred and a want for vengeance in its purest form.

Truer words cannot be said. It's pretty obvious that the bullied kid wanted to avoid a confrontation, despite arming himself, and made efforts to do so. Clearly he was pushed over the edge, entering a form of feral rage that is innate to all people when pushed far enough. I know, I've been there under similar circumstances. You don't think, you don't stop, you just want to hurt the person who has wronged you.

 

[BoogieManFL]

To anyone saying it was premeditated, you're an idiot. He tried to avoid the fight. Without having witnessed it, you can't say one stab would be enough. When someone is angry enough/berserking they can ignore serious injury or the threat of serious injury. Anyone drawing conclusions on what was right or wrong is a fool because you weren't there and don't have all the details. You can offer your opinion but don't offer it like it's RIGHT.

Do I think stabbing was a bit much? Yes. But I don't know how much the kid went through or what attempts were made by parents/school officials to deal with it. Almost never can you just ignore or walk away from bullies, because like in this situation he cowardly attacked a fleeing opponent from behind and it sounds like he wasn't alone. In my eyes, if you're going to attack someone you better be prepared to handle anything this person might want to throw at you, especially if you're the aggressor. To be blunt, he asked for it by being a prick.

My advice is stand your ground, but don't use lethal force unless lethal force is being used against you. This is speaking from experience. In middle school 3 bully attempts were made on me early in the first year and I stopped them at the start by standing my ground. I hit first and that doesn't shame me. I was never bothered again in the following years. If it persisted my parents would have rained a shitstorm down on the school and my brother and sister would have probably bricked their car. My brother told me after having endured bullying himself that don't take it, deal it back. Stand up for yourself.

Ultimately, if it got this far then all the teachers and parents failed at their duty and this is their fault.

 

[kaizen2468]

After all of the suicide reports due to bullying and all of the teachers and parents blatantly looking the other way on the issue, I have no sympathy for the bully who was killed. The decisions we make etch out who we are. He has many chances to stop. The victim, aka the supposed "murderer" in this case, did his best to avoid a confrontation and when backed into a corner, he reacted.

As for the arguments saying 11 times was excessive, I don't know id you've ever been in a situation like the one the victim as in before. You don't have time to calmly think to yourself. You throw as many punches or stabs or shots as you can and hope they find their mark.

The people responsible for this young man's death are in order of responsibility: Himself, his parents and his teachers.

 

[BrassButtons]

Furthermore, I'd actually argue that his life was not in danger, given that
1) This was not the first time he was bullied, what's suddenly gonna provoke murder?

Assault always carries the risk of death. There is no safe way to physically attack someone. It doesn't matter if the bullies were intending to kill him or not, because they could anyway.

 

[senordesol]

1) How do you know *this time* won't be the time they go too far?
2) What does that mean?

1)How likely is that really? How often does bullying escalate to homicide, 'cause here in Finland, I'd say that's pretty close to zero.
2)I'm saying the bullies would be caught. There was multiple witnesses to the planned fight. Surely they mean to kill him.

That last part was sarcasm.

How likely is it? I don't know, what is the 'likely' outcome of four guys circle stomping you on the street? What part of that is reasonable? See, when four people are assaulting you FOR NO GODDAMN REASON, there's no such thing as 'likely' because there is no particular rationale behind their actions other than to do harm.

And as to whether or not they thought they could get away with it, if teens stopped to think about shit like that, they'd not have touched him in the first place, now would they?

 

[Idocreating]

Also, Dylan got stabbed 11 times. 11. And if I read this story right, he had a group of his friends with him when he got off the bus to go torment Jorge.

That means that Jorge was able to furiously stab Dylan 11 times and his friends did little to prevent it.

That just proves what a tool Nuno was. His own friends wouldn't help him.

 

[ryanxm]

I feel he should have been held until 21. He was defending himself, and I'm assuming this went on for a long, long, long time for him to murder the kid. But, stabbing him 11 times? Seriously? Once would have been fine. Maybe he just got caught up in the moment? Not sure, but the fact that he's getting off, what seems like, without any punishment really worries me.

 

[Tiger Sora]

And here I thought this was happening in Italy (in which case my reaction would be 'Meh, southern Italy...'). Seriously, Americans, can't you think of your own names for cities!?

And no, stabbing someone 11 times is not self defense. Unless he was still being a direct threat after being stabbed 10 times. Which I find highly unlikely...

Haha ya I thought it was in Italy at 1st till I read farther in. Was thinking 'The Naples mafia needs to recruit this kid when he becomes 18 as a thug'.

But when driven to the edge. Man will do anything. Most bullying cases wind up with the victim committing suicide. In this, the bully got whats coming to him for years of abuse. It was self defense, and he was being picked on by a gang. That doesn't actually justify a knife. But it's totally realistic when outnumbered and alone, you would want a weapon.

I hope this will help to prop up that victims shouldn't feel so afraid of their bullies, they're only human. (Don't go and murder them) But you can stand up to them, fight back and hurt them too. "This advice is only for the people who can fight back. If your a little guy, I advise getting help from adults".

Bad karma builds up, and when it came around for this bully it came looking for his life.

Back in school, I was a bully since kindergarden. Back around grade 7 I was also becoming a victim much more often. Not physically. In high school I was so afraid for about a week of getting the shit kicked out of me I brought a knife to school. But I realized that the safety it brought outweighed the consequences for if I was caught with one. Thats when I also started using phycological warfare against my enemies. I only got into about 3-4 fights in high school. And all of which happened because I was being bullied and stood up for myself. I didn't lose any of those fights and I wasn't always the bigger guy.

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

I am surprised about how many problems self defense laws create when the way to avoid getting shot/stabbed by someone acting in self defense is so simple, "DON'T TRY TO HURT OTHER PEOPLE" if you cant follow that simple rule, then you need to go.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I'm nearly 30 and I still want to stab the people who bullied me at school.
Therefore I feel I am too biased to comment on this story.
Whoever said the judge was probably a bullying victim you are probably right.

Part of me thinks the most of the witnesses said something like 'He was terrified and struck out at his attacker repeatedly' which would back up self defence.