176: Woman, Mother, Space Marine

Recommended Videos

Tabloid Believer

New member
May 8, 2008
37
0
0
Beery said:
True, but movies like 'Plan 9 from Outer Space' and 'Attack of the Killer Tomatoes' also left a permanent footprint upon cinema and the public imagination (and even on some godawful games), but leaving a footprint doesn't mean a show is great art. Aliens is hardly of the same calibre as its own predecessor (which might just be a 'great' movie). But James Cameron is no Ridley Scott, and Cameron's best movies sit squarely in the B-movie category.
It's true that "Plan 9 from Outer Space" and other movies like it have left imprints on cinema. But look at how those movies have left imprints.

Movies like Plan 9 and even "Manos: The Hands of Fate" are constantly held up as examples of how not to do cinema. More importantly, they are decidedly not ripped off or paid homage unless it is to make some kind of comedic statement. For example, Tim Burton's "Mars Attacks" or "Ed Wood".

Look at the movies and video games that either pay homage to Aliens or rip it off. They aren't comedies. They aren't played for laughs. Since this is a video game board, look at Halo or even Doom. Are those games built-in with a sort of "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" look how bad this is?

Also, look at how cinematic canon views both movies. If you go out and buy "Plan 9" today, you'll most certainly get a commentary somewhere on the disk about how bad the movie is. Not so with Aliens. The "Alien" made AFI top list in 100 Greatest Movie Villains of all time. Guys from "Plan 9"? Not so much.

I'm not going to argue that Aliens is art. It's not. It's a great narrative whose narrative economy is quite excellent. But it's not art, just in the same way that "Raiders of the Lost Ark" is not art. Both films are cinema, but they set out what they want to do quite well.

I mean seriously - 'Aliens', a great movie?
Absolutely.

Mainly, Aliens is a great movie because of the landmark it put in cinema. If you got on the internet and asked people to list the Top 20 Sci-Movies of all time - my bet is that you'll see Aliens on there quite often. Not so with Plan 9.

And look, if you don't believe me: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1000617-aliens/

Rotten Tomatoes gives the movie 100%. That's quite high. Much higher than just about any movie in recent history. And then, look at the reviews. Do the critics call the movie one of the worst films ever made? No.
 

More Fun To Compute

New member
Nov 18, 2008
4,061
0
0
Anyone looking for contemporary version of the "Space Marine" should read Old Man's War by John Scalzi. It's witty, entertaining and not some authoritarian military fetishist dream. The hook for the book is that old people are given a chance at life in cloned bodies working for the military. One of the ideas in the book is how traditional military training is not useful with the technology and challenges in the novel.

There are action game characters out there who are not carbon copied from Ash from Evil Dead or the Aliens Space Marines. I think that demanding more are female and copied from Ripley is missing the point somewhat. How about something original or at least looking past the DVD collection of horror, action and fantasy movies.
 

Ray Huling

New member
Feb 18, 2008
193
0
0
Jordan Deam said:
After 24 years of holding out, this article is what finally made me rent Alien. (I'm following up with the sequel later this week.) Thanks, Ray!
Wow! I actually envy you. I'd love to see both of these movies with fresh eyes. I do have a recommendation for you about Aliens: don't watch the extended version. If the disc advertises extra footage, turn away! Or choose the cinematic release option. This is one movie where the streamlined cut is actually better.

At any rate, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of both films.
 

hamster mk 4

New member
Apr 29, 2008
818
0
0
More Fun To Compute said:
Anyone looking for contemporary version of the "Space Marine" should read Old Man's War by John Scalzi.
I seccond that, "Old Man's War" was a fun book to read.
 

L.B. Jeffries

New member
Nov 29, 2007
2,175
0
0
hamster mk 4 said:
More Fun To Compute said:
Anyone looking for contemporary version of the "Space Marine" should read Old Man's War by John Scalzi.
I seccond that, "Old Man's War" was a fun book to read.
If you want to see someone's critique of 'Starship Troopers', Joe Haldeman's 'The Forever War' is a provocative portrayal of how meaningless the role of the returning soldier was in society and how disenfranchised it left him. It deals with time dilation and how every time the protagonist returns home, centuries have gone by and society has continued to change and lose all interest in him. Haldeman wrote it to describe what it was like coming back from Vietnam.

And good article.
 

Ray Huling

New member
Feb 18, 2008
193
0
0
We've got a live one!

Hi All,

I'm glad that the piece is inspiring comment. I want to clarify a few things here, in something of reverse order.

Tabloid Believer: I'll go further. I'm actually one of those people who doesn't quite believe movies can be art. But your argument for Aliens is sound. I'll just add to the list of institutional acclaim: Sigourney Weaver was nominated for Best Actress for her role in Aliens--an unthinkable accomplishment for sci-fi at the time.

Johnman: I'm actually hoping that Sarah Palin's candidacy will inspire some tough, mother figures in gaming.

Hamster: you're right that a mother's protective instinct is not justification for video game levels of carnage, but since when do games ask us to be rational? I actually find it fun to play games I have a moral disagreement with. All space marine games would be an example.

Obliterato: The Starship Troopers film was an anti-militarist, anti-fascist parody. You're right that no one got the joke, but I'm not convinced that's Verhoeven's fault, so much as the audience's.

You're also right that games use femininity as a mere skin. In this regard, games follow the depiction of Private Vasquez in Aliens, a character I didn't have space to explore in this essay.

Robyrt (and others): actually, I'm an Anarchist, and, yes, my political views led me to choose the word 'terrible'. I choose my words carefully! From the OED: 1. Exciting or fitted to excite terror; such as to inspire great fear or dread; frightful, dreadful.

Starship Troopers is a frightening book, especially when you consider that Heinlein intended it to inculcate militarism in young boys.

But, yes again, I also meant the word in the following way: c. As a hyperbolic term of depreciation: of shockingly poor performance or quality; incompetent; defective.

Heinlein is bad writer, and Starship Troopers an especially bad novel of his. The main character is a patsy, a vessel to be filled, a tool. Much of the text consists of screeds against caricatures of democracy and pacifism. The book has as much charm and subtlety as an Afterschool Special.

Shalkis: you're missing the point but in an important way. First, check out the exploded text on the first page. I'm not saying there are no examples of powerful mother figures in gaming, for one thing. For another, the TVtropes examples are weak: Samus had one semi-matronly storyline among her dozen games. Beyond Good and Evil sold something like a few hundred thousand copies. And Sophitia, one character among many, stars in a fighting game--not exactly much on motivation.

You could have linked to the Space Marine entry on TVtropes: way more titles, way more popular games, way more story.

TVtropes is misleading in this way, which is why you have to be careful about citing it. It's sloppy and doesn't really trace lines of influence. It's just a list.

The point is not the mere cliche itself. It's not interesting to ask 'Gosh, why don't games pay more attention to the myth of Hera, the original Fighting Mom?' The answer is obvious: no one cares about that crap.

Games do care about Aliens, however. Game developers have watched and made use of Aliens as they have no other movie. Of course, they're going to extract the boyish material first and put it in their games. But it's been more than twenty years now. Surely, by this point, someone should have noticed that Aliens is against indulging boys.

What's surprising is that the single work most used by games to indulge our craving for paternalistic militarism is a a movie that rejects paternalistic militarism.

Whew!

Thanks, everybody. Dare I say, 'Peace out'?
 

Caligulove

New member
Sep 25, 2008
3,029
0
0
Very great article, this.
Always been a huge fan of Aliens and other SciFi (as my screen-name totally doesnt support) and am always happy to read articles like this that express how I feel about a movie and where people take the ideas from it in future endeavors
 

dcsobral

New member
Sep 11, 2008
14
0
0
Good article overall, but it sucked at interpreting Starship Troopers, and even more at Heinlein.

Heinlein liked to write books about societies which worked differently from ours. In ST he explored many things, but as far as society goes, the idea was exploring the concept of a society where only people who put their lives at stake, not necessarily in the military!, were enfranchised.

The society he put forward was NOT a fascist one, but a democratic one. But the army, of course, is not run as a democracy. So, please, do not confuse the goverment with the army.

But even if the society in ST was a fascist one, it would be wrong to attribute that view to Heinlein. He cheerfully went on to write books about anarchic societies and so on. If you really groked Heinlein, you'd see that (pun intended).

So, good post, and either go reevaluate Heinlein (perhaps without a preconceived bias, or with an adult, instead of teenager, worldview?), or leave him out of reviews. Or, at the very least, do not misrepresent him or his books.

And, btw, while I find Heinlein very good at working up concepts alien to us (no pun intended), I find his writing style boring.
 

ccesarano

New member
Oct 3, 2007
523
0
0
On the topic of Heinlein, I agree with dcsobral on your false impression of him. You may look at Starship Troopers as advocating a fascist government, but if you read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (which I'm not done with myself), you'll find more thoughts on how to run a successful revolution to overthrow an oppressive regime. It is the exact opposite side of the political spectrum as Starship Troopers, which advocated some of the ideas being overthrown in The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress.

Personally I like the book and think it does have a lot of good points, but if anything makes Heinlein a bad writer it is that he writes 200+ long essays instead of stories. He writes to get ideas across, not to entertain, and if you walk away hating all of it, then you simply went in with the wrong mindset. I don't like everything in Starship Troopers or The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, but the man is smart and I feel a lot of his points are very, very valid.

In terms of mentioning Gears of War, that is a game that is often misunderstood. If you want to get a real idea of the game, check out some of the commercials and trailers released for it. The 'Mad World' trailer released for Gears 1 wasn't about being macho, it was about being outnumbered and facing impossible odds. Plenty of the trailers for Gears 2 reflect this, and many other things. The macho attitude is certainly fun, and the games aren't at all the deepest, but they aren't about being bad ass and taking names. That is just the fun. The real story is about how frightened humanity is in trying to overcome these impossible odds.

As for "the military answer is always the right answer", I must wonder if you stayed until after the credits of Gears 2, where the lead up for the concluding game is that Marcus' big plan to save humanity might have just damned them all.

Overall it is a good article, but you really should have left out your misunderstood criticisms of Starship Troopers and Gears of War.
 

Beowulf DW

New member
Jul 12, 2008
656
0
0
I don't really agree with the statement about Alien's influence on sci-fi games. Yes, sci-fi games borrowed heavily from Aliens, but I don't think this is because Aliens stumbled across subjects that appealed to humans; rather Aliens presented the best sci-fi form of various archetypes.

Let's look at some of the the main aspects of Aliens:

The aliens themselves- for generations, humans have feared the idea of an entity that can "get inside us," and alter us in one way or another. i.e. Vampires and Werewolves, creatures that feed on us, alter us, and repurpose us, using us as cattle, stripping away our percieved superiority in the food chain.

The space marines- every society is fascinated by its warriors. Knights, Samurai, Paratroopers...all of them were depicted and romantacized in the fiction of their day. In the 1970s, our warriors were soldiers who fought in Vietnam. The conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq are similar to Vietnam, as such, our warriors today are similar to the warriors of the Cold War era, and they recieve similar treatment in modern works of fiction.

My point is that, yes, Aliens is borrowed from shamelessly, but only because it had the best sci-fi versions of pre-existing concepts. The only thing original about the movie itself is the presentation and combination of the concepts it uses. Somebody else would have eventually come up with much the same ideas.
 

Hendar23

New member
Feb 25, 2008
19
0
0
Playing Jade in Beyond Good and Evil sparked my child protection reflex. When the DomZ kidnap the kids at the start, you see them taken inside the baddies and thier eyes glaze over...then it puts you in control for some righteous ass-kickery! As a parent myself, I'm a sucker for anything with kids in peril.

In fact that first opening fight in BGaE is friggin' awesome. Halfway through the battle it kicks into slow motion, and the dramatic music builds up...I was like 'holy shit! That was EPIC and the game has just begun!" I'd just picked up the game so I was just button mashing frantically, but it made me feel like a badass.
 

Lord Krunk

New member
Mar 3, 2008
4,809
0
0
In a world where Girl Gamers continue to be a myth (not for much longer, I predict), the developers of these games must provide for their target demographic - the young/adult male.

This involves men with gigantic, bulky super-suits, a big gun (with chainsaws attached, looking at Gears of War) an American accent (guess why), and an obligatory scantily-clad female character with no genuine purpose but to be eye candy. You can see this in many games, such as Halo, which involves our faceless, fearless and smart-talking hero with a 'woman' (seemingly wearing nothing) breathing instructions into his ear at every turn. Which leads me to my next point: is this all the sci-fi heroine good for?

Half-Life and it's sequels take a spin on this, and while it still involves a robot-suit and a hot sidekick, they twist the stereotype around a lot. For example, Gordon Freeman never speaks, so he isn't as profane and full of smarmy one-liners that other heroes in his demographic are. While he wears his suit, he wears it because he's a scientist dealing with hazardous materials, not for the purpose of killing aliens. Alyx Vance, however, while good-looking, is not scantily-clad, and actually helps you out in your fights, providing extra firepower where needed. Valve utilises her as a person who can do what you can't very nicely, and she becomes a valuable asset to the story. The only time when she actually puts on a 'damsel in distress' routine is when she 'dies' in Half Life 2: Episode 2.
Dr. Judith Mossman is a shining example here of a woman, and arguably 'mother' who betrays everyone she loves most. What she's really doing, however, is plotting elaborately to get herself closer to Dr. Breen, the 'Big Bad' of Half Life 2.
She is a shining example of how women should be portrayed in gaming; cunning, smart and independent. She did what an entire rebel force could not in the space of 20 years; a fine feat for a woman her age. She takes a more active role in the sequels, furthering my respect
for Valve.
Also, you might notice that she certainly does not wear skimpy clothing.

Destroy All Humans! also takes a spin on this as well, making yourself the alien invading our beloved Earth. There is only one robot-suit in the game (which is used by an enemy for a boss-battle), and the 'hero' (if you twist things back around to the cliche of most sci-fi games) just happens to be a woman. While scantily-clad (for the final boss battle - she wears a suit and gas mask to hide her femininity throughout the game - a bit like Samus Aran from Metroid), she fends for herself, and does her duty in defending the world effectively.

My final point is that while these games are made to suit the target male demographic, movies can not be so biased. They have been around a lot longer, and people have been able to study the audience a lot better. Therefore, movies, in order to please this broader community, must add these little twists and gender equality. It's all tactics; what gets the best sales wins.

As my closing statement, as I have mentioned above, women do tend to leave the limelight, but there are some shining examples which defy this stereotype. Originality is not dead; it's alive and kicking.

EDIT: Another example of the 'Fighting Mom' in movies would be the militant Sarah Connor from Terminator.
 

hamster mk 4

New member
Apr 29, 2008
818
0
0
I have been doing more thaught on the Maternal game protaginist and I still don't think it is a good idea. A child is not an abstract concept like a princess and thus should not be used in the same way. However the protective guardian instinct which is at the core of the "Fighting Mom" can be harnesed in other ways. Homeworld for example made me feel very maternal to my ships. I felt this to the point where no losses were acceptable and I would go back to a save at the moment one of my ships was lost.

I could see this being instinct being harnesed in other ways. For example if they ever get arround to making a good Battle Star Galactica game. Imagine if each ship in the fleet had a unique face and voice that went along with it. Even if the responses were always the same the fact you would never see that face or hear that voice again if you allowed that ship to be destroyed would cause a great attachment between the player and that ship. It is not exactly maternal but the core emotion would be the same.
 

wildcard9

New member
Aug 31, 2008
131
0
0
I enjoyed your article, up until you spewed needless bile upon Heinlein's Starship Troopers. I'm rereading it as we speak, and if you're looking for militarism, you'll find that, no denying it. It is a system where ultimately the soldier benefits the most while the people go on with their lives disenfranchised.

Take a closer look, and you'll see more than warmongering: you'll find the themes of sacrifice and service: of what truly defines sovereignty. The book makes it clear that war is unfortunately necessary, that violence understands nothing but violence. When protagonist Johnny is asked is it worth it to sacrifice a thousand Mobile Infantrymen (not Marines) for the sake of rescuing 1 soldier, if one potato is worth just as little as another, he answers yes. Why? "Because men are not potatoes!" It also argues that this is not a war of us against them, but a war between two inherently savage races which kill and destroy in the name of self-preservation. Hell, Johnny himself argues "Fight because I'm an MI? Brother, you're drooling like one of Pavlov's dogs. Cut it out and start thinking" These themes are more than man like Cameron could comprehend, despite the fact that it garnered such critical acclaim.

Your argument, however is invalid. According to your logic, since videogames have failed to account of the strong maternal figure in Aliens, then the true predecessor is, gasp, Starship Troopers! If it wasn't for Bioshock and it's clear literary influence, we'd stil porbably discredit books as a source for inspiration within games. Even Blizzard did a shout-out for Heinlein and ST in Starcraft, and that game and it's expansion were nothing short of epic.

Maybe if you dropped your Rage Against the Machine ego at the door and read it for what it was, hell, if you actually read it, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, now would we?
 

karpiel

New member
Apr 18, 2008
141
0
0
It seems a bit much to claim that Aliens is one of the greatest movies ever. The original Alien was really brilliant. I find that its sequel doesn't really draw me in emotionally like the unbearable suspense and technical virtuosity of the first does.
 

CanadianWolverine

New member
Feb 1, 2008
432
0
0
Lord Krunk said:
EDIT: Another example of the 'Fighting Mom' in movies would be the militant Sarah Connor from Terminator.
Please don't forget The Bride in Kill Bill vol 1 and vol 2 as well.

---

Honestly I have been surprised by some of comments being against a motherly protagonist. Heck, I am surprised that the article advocates against the fatherly figure too! From my own experience being a parent with my lady love is we are both very protective of our child and I could easily see a character who is a parent, whether male or female, having protection as a motivation - though not necessarily fear, though there are people who approach parenting like that and they are in my experience mostly mothers; I don't think I am the only one to have noticed ladies tend to be over protective of their children to the point of stunting their development in any number of ways they perceive as being too dangerous, especially physical defense and aptitude. But warrior women do exist, they are not a myth - to assert Ripley was "just" a civilian is to ignore that she was inadvertently a first encounter scout in the first movie and survived, a feat that was purposely ignored to make a attempt for profits. She was just as much a fighter as any of them at that point, if not more so for being a specialist in that particular hostile xeno-lifeform.

The author would certainly be remiss to ignore Samus but I do find myself in agreement with them that there needs to be more women protagonists for more reasons than just that their model's assets are nicer to look at than the male models' - that's just a bonus on account of the player's preference for a view. The stories should be richer in variety of characters, just as varied as our own can be - a limit to certain personalities is a self defeating limit.

Gamers are getting older, we expect more than what our hormones used to be selling us - some of us are becoming fathers and mothers, believe it or not.
 

JMeganSnow

New member
Aug 27, 2008
1,591
0
0
wildcard9 said:
I enjoyed your article, up until you spewed needless bile upon Heinlein's Starship Troopers.
Hear, hear!

Anyone with half an understanding of philosophy and basic reading comprehension should know that Starship Troopers is not about *unquestioning* loyalty to the state but about loyalty to what the state *represents*: humanity. While I disagree with many of Heinlein's philosophical formulations, ST is an *excellent* book.

Half of it is a paean specifically against the type of "greenhorn" officers that were so disastrous in Vietnam--showing an entirely different and radical approach to military training, organization, and professionalism. But I guess that was too subtle for Mr. "Quote out of context" Ray Huling.
 

Ray Huling

New member
Feb 18, 2008
193
0
0
Boys (and I know you're boys!), let me make it all clear about Heinlein.

Of these things, there is no doubt:

1) Starship Troopers depicts a fascist society.
2) Heinlein wrote the book to praise the worthiness of such a society.
3) The book is a snooze.

Now, it's true that Heinlein was a complicated fellow. The fascist society he depicted lacked much of the racism and sexism we endure to this day. But Heinlein wrote the book as a rejoinder to a nuclear test ban treaty in the real world. When the teachers in the book talk about violence, they are serving as Heinlein's mouthpieces.

The militarism in Starship Troopers is hyperbolic, but the hyperbole serves to make a militarist point. Don't kid yourselves.

Does this mean that all of Heinlein's books sound the same fascist overtones? It does not. He was complicated. This does not mean he was your friend, however. He remained always a firm believer in Lieutenant Dad, and he remained one of those poor, earnest souls who just couldn't understand that permitting women to fuck at will did not end sexism.

In the end, Heinlein's work is all about indulging boys. That's what I don't like about it.
 

Ray Huling

New member
Feb 18, 2008
193
0
0
JMeganSnow said:
Half of it is a paean specifically against the type of "greenhorn" officers that were so disastrous in Vietnam--showing an entirely different and radical approach to military training, organization, and professionalism. But I guess that was too subtle for Mr. "Quote out of context" Ray Huling.
Well; that's a problematic statement, given that the book was written prior to Vietnam, but let's pretend you've got your history straight.

The radical militarism is precisely what I said is wrong with it: the book's about how to build a better lieutenant.

Heinlein would have looked at Aliens and said, "that fuckin' Gorman! They needed a real soldier in there!"

I'm saying--and I think Cameron was saying in Aliens--that a better lieutenant is not the answer.
 

Ray Huling

New member
Feb 18, 2008
193
0
0
ccesarano said:
In terms of mentioning Gears of War, that is a game that is often misunderstood. If you want to get a real idea of the game, check out some of the commercials and trailers released for it...

As for "the military answer is always the right answer", I must wonder if you stayed until after the credits of Gears 2
There's a post-modern viewpoint for you! The meaning of a game lies outside of the game! But if "facing impossible odds" isn't part of being 'macho', then Butch and Sundance went about it all wrong.

It's unclear what Fenix's Dad meant at the end of GoW 2, but I'm willing to bet you dollars to doughnuts that Gears of War 3 will involve a lot of Space Marines killing motherfuckers.

Or do you think it'll be a game of resolving conflict through consensus-building and skill-shares? Perhaps Marcus Fenix's mom will facilitate?

Time will tell!