Please reference all documentation of the United States for the years 2001-2008. Key words: patriot act, FISA, extraordinary rendition, propaganda, pliable media.The_ModeRazor said:
1984 George Orwell
- Thread starter Polyintrinsic
- Start date
Recommended Videos
For some reason I picked this for my personal study back in school and I really didn't like it at all.
On topic though it is possible that the government may in future become just like that but I think they would likely stop when it started violating human rights, since at the moment security cameras are causing a fair bit of contorversy
On topic though it is possible that the government may in future become just like that but I think they would likely stop when it started violating human rights, since at the moment security cameras are causing a fair bit of contorversy
What I don't get is: When some fact was changed, did the people really believe that the new, revised fact had always been true? Or did they just not care?
I doubt that any populace would quite so dramatically hand over power to their government, or just accept everything they are told. Also the 2 minutes of hate thing seemed a bit ridiculous. I for one can never get that worked up about anything and I doubt most people could. I love the new language used in the book like "doublethink" but the idea of holding two separate contrasting pieces of knowledge in your head and holding them both true is totally ridiculous to me. Though some people can feel that way after reading the bible I find, because lets face it, there is a fair bit of contradiction in there. Largely due to the conjunction of the old testament and the teachings of Jesus. (do excuse the flamebait, but hey, it's my opinion)
So I don't know. I for one won't be conforming like that. But I can't speak for the rest of the world.
So I don't know. I for one won't be conforming like that. But I can't speak for the rest of the world.
they believed it, that's the idea proposed by doublethinkQueen Michael said:
Well lots of things DID come true in communist Russia like rewriting history and disappearing 'undesirables'. But Russian communism failed because of corruption and infighting in the high ranks and alcoholism in the population. I dont know enough about the current state of China but its looking close to that way too.
Hmm...
Unfourtunately this IS slowly happening. The education in most 'Civilised' community's is disgusting at best. Most forget how to question and beleive evrything popular culture and the press are telling them and each day people are becoming more and more consumerist each day and most people stupidly ignore the powerful message Orwell is trying to give us. Humanity is disgusting and greedy and one day some heartless(albeit intelligent soul) individual will take advantage of this ignorance and take power by promising useless luxuries and trinkets(ofcourse lying).I know this is a bit misanthropic but unless the 'civilised' people of the world wake up and begin to question what is being told to them, we will end up exactly the same as the people of Oceania in the book.
Unfourtunately this IS slowly happening. The education in most 'Civilised' community's is disgusting at best. Most forget how to question and beleive evrything popular culture and the press are telling them and each day people are becoming more and more consumerist each day and most people stupidly ignore the powerful message Orwell is trying to give us. Humanity is disgusting and greedy and one day some heartless(albeit intelligent soul) individual will take advantage of this ignorance and take power by promising useless luxuries and trinkets(ofcourse lying).I know this is a bit misanthropic but unless the 'civilised' people of the world wake up and begin to question what is being told to them, we will end up exactly the same as the people of Oceania in the book.
I think it's one of the greatest works of literature ever written.
A nice thinky companion for it is Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism. Similar ideas.
I also think it's a bit to easy to read simply. It's not just about authoritarianism or state surveillance. It's about the madness of ideology, about despair, and the so-called "spirit of man." The greatest thing about it is that, ultimately, it is about failure.
A nice thinky companion for it is Hannah Arendt's The Origins of Totalitarianism. Similar ideas.
I also think it's a bit to easy to read simply. It's not just about authoritarianism or state surveillance. It's about the madness of ideology, about despair, and the so-called "spirit of man." The greatest thing about it is that, ultimately, it is about failure.
Well, I wouldn't say we're fullblown there, or even that there's a steady progression.
omgz department of HOMELAND security. ohz noes.
Now, there is police brutality, and the TSA can be dicks, but that's always been around. Some people just know how to react better to police brutality (See:Athens)
However, there is the concern of wiretapping. Bush raped us on that one, and Obama has yet to repeal the Patriot Act or any other wiretapping concerns. So I think it's there to stay.
There are endless wars that can be used to abuse rights. Greatest example: War on Nouns. Drugs, Poverty, and Terrorism will probably always exist in some form, and I believe prohibition is wrong.
But: We lock people up for smoking plants and doing what they want on their own time. We overlook the fourth amendment rights with things like "probable cause" "no knock warrant" and other shenanigans that ends up getting people brutalized or the wrong house is raided and innocent people die.
Terrorism is a criminal matter, and we got ourselves into two fucked up quagmires and dragged some allies in. All in the name of fighting a specific type of crime. We've conveniently created a potentially endless war that all kinds of people around the world can profit from. Defense contractors get to shaft the government, and all kinds of immunity, politicians get to be "tough on terrorism" and increase security and surveillance, terrorists get us to send foreign soldiers delivered to their own backyard so they can keep killing people in the name of freedom fighting or holy war, so they have us where they want us.
In addition doublespeak is very close to reality, because people do manipulate language. Ever heard the terms "pro-life" (anti-abortion, like to shoot up and bomb clinics), "enhanced interrogation" (torture), "fair and balanced" (so far right Hitler could have owned it) or "patriotism" (blind nationalism)?
"Two minutes hate" is unlikely, but having seen some of the reactions to Obama when he was elected I could see it in a very extreme case.
In addition we do sort of have that whole "We were never at war with..." mentality. Saddam propped up by us, Osama was one of the fighters we used to supply, Ahmadinejad offered help in Afghanistan (for selfish reasons) and we put him in the "Axis of Evil".
So, in summary, it's just a really exaggerated version of real life things portrayed to make us check ourselves.
omgz department of HOMELAND security. ohz noes.
Now, there is police brutality, and the TSA can be dicks, but that's always been around. Some people just know how to react better to police brutality (See:Athens)
However, there is the concern of wiretapping. Bush raped us on that one, and Obama has yet to repeal the Patriot Act or any other wiretapping concerns. So I think it's there to stay.
There are endless wars that can be used to abuse rights. Greatest example: War on Nouns. Drugs, Poverty, and Terrorism will probably always exist in some form, and I believe prohibition is wrong.
But: We lock people up for smoking plants and doing what they want on their own time. We overlook the fourth amendment rights with things like "probable cause" "no knock warrant" and other shenanigans that ends up getting people brutalized or the wrong house is raided and innocent people die.
Terrorism is a criminal matter, and we got ourselves into two fucked up quagmires and dragged some allies in. All in the name of fighting a specific type of crime. We've conveniently created a potentially endless war that all kinds of people around the world can profit from. Defense contractors get to shaft the government, and all kinds of immunity, politicians get to be "tough on terrorism" and increase security and surveillance, terrorists get us to send foreign soldiers delivered to their own backyard so they can keep killing people in the name of freedom fighting or holy war, so they have us where they want us.
In addition doublespeak is very close to reality, because people do manipulate language. Ever heard the terms "pro-life" (anti-abortion, like to shoot up and bomb clinics), "enhanced interrogation" (torture), "fair and balanced" (so far right Hitler could have owned it) or "patriotism" (blind nationalism)?
"Two minutes hate" is unlikely, but having seen some of the reactions to Obama when he was elected I could see it in a very extreme case.
In addition we do sort of have that whole "We were never at war with..." mentality. Saddam propped up by us, Osama was one of the fighters we used to supply, Ahmadinejad offered help in Afghanistan (for selfish reasons) and we put him in the "Axis of Evil".
So, in summary, it's just a really exaggerated version of real life things portrayed to make us check ourselves.
1984 is probably my all time favorite book, but it's not realistic to expect things to happen in such an extreme way. It looks at real concerns by taking them to the utmost extreme, where it is easier to critically examine certain concepts. Basically, the world is more complex then that, but simplifying aids understanding. Strangely, I always preferred 1984 for its examination of the fragility and shortcomings in the human spirit before its political message. No one likes tyranny, and everyone can see the danger of a government thought police, but no where near as many are willing to admit what Room 101 would do to there spirit.
Also, here's an interesting thing.
In 1984, people get in trouble for thoughtcrime. How horrible! It's disgusting!
But, if you look carefully, much of common law is based on intent. Manslaughter versus murder. Crime for money versus hate crime designed to terrorize an entire class/race/occupation of people. Intent is based on the criminal's thoughts. So in a way, we do use thoughts in determining sentences. However, we don't arrest people just for thoughts.
Also look at speech. At what point does something become hate speech or immediately threatening? I can't yell fire in a crowded theater is a good example. But how do you know when rhetoric is physically threatening? Radio stations encouraged and propagated alot of the murder in Rwanda through their rhetoric. Maybe preaching or teachings from churches lead to a member committing a hate crime.
Orwell's point isn't "ooga booga government to get you!" but just a self-evaluation to make you ask "How far is too far?"
In 1984, people get in trouble for thoughtcrime. How horrible! It's disgusting!
But, if you look carefully, much of common law is based on intent. Manslaughter versus murder. Crime for money versus hate crime designed to terrorize an entire class/race/occupation of people. Intent is based on the criminal's thoughts. So in a way, we do use thoughts in determining sentences. However, we don't arrest people just for thoughts.
Also look at speech. At what point does something become hate speech or immediately threatening? I can't yell fire in a crowded theater is a good example. But how do you know when rhetoric is physically threatening? Radio stations encouraged and propagated alot of the murder in Rwanda through their rhetoric. Maybe preaching or teachings from churches lead to a member committing a hate crime.
Orwell's point isn't "ooga booga government to get you!" but just a self-evaluation to make you ask "How far is too far?"
Books about society will always be a rational extension of some prevalent feature in our current society. 1948 was a time of great dictators, in terms of influence, and so the book is about the great dictator. Or shades of the "Holding Company," "Big Brother can be very easy to beat". You also can't run forever, so the inevitability of being swept up into the fabric of the now means we all experience it. Life is too big to control, no matter how modern an approach you take to it
Ah, what a good book. THe whole Big Brother thing was scaringly right on the mark. Well here in the US they have a program of the same name to try and monitor your location based on your cell phone and such. Sometimes I feel that that is the direction we are heading.Polyintrinsic said:
1984 is certainly George Orwell's most influential and most important work, but I don't think it was his best work. I implore every single one of you guys and gals who like or didn't like 1984 to go out there and read his other works, especially Homage to Catalonia and Down and Out in London and Paris. The first recounts his time as a fighter with the Trotskyite Marxists in Spain alongside the libertarians and socialists against the fascists and the second is about a long period he spent as a bum/nearly homeless person in the two capitals. As well as being one of the most articulate portrayals of social injustice in modern societies, it's also quite a humorous read.
There's also the ironic (unverified) story of how American high school versions of Animal Farm included at the beginning his quote that every word he had ever written was against totalitarianism, but intentionally left out the part, "and in support of Democratic Socialism".
There's also the ironic (unverified) story of how American high school versions of Animal Farm included at the beginning his quote that every word he had ever written was against totalitarianism, but intentionally left out the part, "and in support of Democratic Socialism".
Ahahaha, no no my english paper writing days are gone. I wish i was that clever when i was still in High School.Shynobee said:
Have you ever read Orwell's short story "how to shoot an elephant"? It is short and intense.Spectrum_Prez said:
No, I hadn't, but I just went and did. That was magnificent, I had forgotten about his period in Burma. Thanks for the recommendation.Polyintrinsic said:
I live in Hungary. USA is a long way from here.funguy2121 said:
Noone could set up a totalitarian government here ('cept if another country invades, e.g. USSR), because we don't give two shits. It's hard enough to make a living as it is.
