1ReasonWhy We Need_to Change the Way We Fight Against Sexism

[rbstewart7263]

I think some people are slightly twisting what she has said, not that their isn't a problem but that we shouldn't blow up about everything.

That said the issue with the dancers was more that it followed a panel discussing problems women face in the gaming industry than anything else. It was like the industry saying LOL WE DON'T CARE!

Many time I have noticed a lot of gas-lighting going on when it comes to women's issues. 'You're crazy, you're irrational, you're over emotional. It's a way of guys making women feel bad about standing up for themselves with the weight of society behind them.

Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.

I'll just leave this here

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/game-industry-gender-wage-gap-is-horrendous/

can you send me a link where kim said that? I wonder which dev she had problems with?(SURELY NOT THE MIGHTY AND JUST VALVE!!!)lol jk

Kim Swift @K2theSwift

Because I get mistaken for the receptionist or day-hire marketing at trade shows. #1reasonwhy

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

Taken from these twitter links.

Kims experience sounds like an annoyance at best. I read a few of the others though and while I wont go so far as to say that it is some "GREAT STRUGGLE!" I can tell there are definately some bumps here and there depending on where you go in the industry.

I like this post from numberonereasontobe.

because for every shithead misogynist, there are loads of respectful, funny, & brilliant men & women to work with in game dev. #1reasontobe

Damn straight. With more positivity like this this can be a fun place to be in again.

 

[Bellvedere]

Wow, I expected to read that and come away feeling offended in some way. It's nice to find that I can actually agree with another woman on the topic of gender equality. Actually I also agree with a lot of what Lilani said.

That's a high score for me.

 

[Agayek]

One last thought, I've heard about this #1ReasonWhy thingy but have no idea what it is. Anyone care to enlighten?

As far as I know, it's a reaction to the dongle-joke-debacle and GDC strippers from a couple weeks ago.

Basically, it's a Twitter hashtag people use to call out sexism in the industry and make a big deal out of it.

Personally, I find the whole thing rather silly and it seems to me that one should be more focused on making gender a non-issue than making it an issue, but maybe I'm just crazy.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Wow, I expected to read that and come away feeling offended in some way. It's nice to find that I can actually agree with another woman on the topic of gender equality. Actually I also agree with a lot of what Lilani said.

That's a high score for me.

I know right. Between everyone arguing and taking things out of proportion its nice that to know that your not the only one in the middle.

 

[JudgeGame]

One last thought, I've heard about this #1ReasonWhy thingy but have no idea what it is. Anyone care to enlighten?

As far as I know, it's a reaction to the dongle-joke-debacle and GDC strippers from a couple weeks ago.

Basically, it's a Twitter hashtag people use to call out sexism in the industry and make a big deal out of it.

Personally, I find the whole thing rather silly and it seems to me that one should be more focused on making gender a non-issue than making it an issue, but maybe I'm just crazy.

Let's just ignore our problems until they go away with the power of magic. Any other enlightened insights to share?

 

[JudgeGame]

As someone who thinks there is quite a serious problem with this industry I'm expected to feel resentful of this person. Even I kind of expect that reaction from myself. In the end, all I feel is hope that this girl never has to go back on her words. If she's never faced obstacles related to her gender she is quite fortunate. No one can know if she ever will, but I hope she doesn't.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I think some people are slightly twisting what she has said, not that their isn't a problem but that we shouldn't blow up about everything.

That said the issue with the dancers was more that it followed a panel discussing problems women face in the gaming industry than anything else. It was like the industry saying LOL WE DON'T CARE!

Many time I have noticed a lot of gas-lighting going on when it comes to women's issues. 'You're crazy, you're irrational, you're over emotional. It's a way of guys making women feel bad about standing up for themselves with the weight of society behind them.

Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.

I'll just leave this here

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/04/game-industry-gender-wage-gap-is-horrendous/

can you send me a link where kim said that? I wonder which dev she had problems with?(SURELY NOT THE MIGHTY AND JUST VALVE!!!)lol jk

Kim Swift @K2theSwift

Because I get mistaken for the receptionist or day-hire marketing at trade shows. #1reasonwhy

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

Taken from these twitter links.

Kims experience sounds like an annoyance at best. I read a few of the others though and while I wont go so far as to say that it is some "GREAT STRUGGLE!" I can tell there are definately some bumps here and there depending on where you go in the industry.

I like this post from numberonereasontobe.

because for every shithead misogynist, there are loads of respectful, funny, & brilliant men & women to work with in game dev. #1reasontobe

Damn straight. With more positivity like this this can be a fun place to be in again.

Oh well as long as you think it's a bit of an annoyance I guess that's okay...

Maybe try thinking about how it feels to be put down all the time? I don't know why you are trying so hard to deny there is a problem. How does it negatively affect you if there is?

And it is a gendered problem if someone automatically clocks you as a secretary just because you are a woman..

 

[Smeatza]

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

Some of this stuff is just laughable

Because I get mistaken for the receptionist or day-hire marketing at trade shows.

- Due to a number of factors including clothing, personality, and age. Gender is but one of these.

Because I am not his arm candy, ************. I make games.

- Again, a number of factors might contribute to this assumption.

If you take being mistaken for another profession that badly, you might want to consider why you think so badly of said profession? Or why it's even a big deal.
These tweets say more about the tweeters than those making assumptions about where in the building you work.

because there's not enough investment in AAA games about something other than war, cowboys, football, cars. sorry, but it's true

- Again, nothing to do with gender whatsoever. There are no way near enough cowboy games.

The worst sexism is the "harmless" assumptions.

- You heard it hear first folks, harmless assumptions are the worst part of sexism, no it's not forced genital mutilation, rape culture or anything like that. It's assuming someone has a different career to what they do have.

Because when I tell people what I do for a living, they still say, "But you don't actually play games, right?"

- Yeah, I'm sure no male game developer has ever had ANYTHING like that said to them.
Except for they do, all the time. It's like people forget that we (as society) are only just getting to the point where video games are not seen as children's toys.

Because the folks in marketing don't bother doing their jobs when the video game stars a lady

- The folks in marketing are there to make money, nothing else. If they do not believe that something will make money they will not market it so it will not make money.
It's a vicious circle that applies to EVERYTHING that is outside of current trends. Not unique to female protagonists at all.

There are some legitimate complaints on that page. But they are completely eclipsed by the petty, non (or minimal) gender related, issues like I've listed here.

Also if I were to start a twitter trend - "#Iwasmolested" which involves victims of child molestation posting stories - I could make it look like modern society is rife with molestation and that no child in our society has ever not experienced molestation.

The truly depressing part is that when somebody calls for reason and rationality (like the person who wrote the blog post from the OP) people don't like it.
The best way I can explain it is with this quote.

I, by no means, am saying that sexism isn't a problem in the industry. What I am saying is that not all men are the enemy. Not everything that occurs is blatantly sexist. Some things totally are sexist and in poor taste; others only appear so in hindsight. Which should we be more upset over? Where do we start to fix things? How can we ensure equality in the workplace, and make the development community more inclusive?

You could not ask for a more reasonable, rational and reality-based view.
Yet people have felt the need to comment in the following ways.

Lots of fallacies there. This argument has been used in every single industry where women faced issues and has, so far, always turned out wrong.

It sounds like she's lived a very blessed, very sheltered life.

Frankly I don't think this girl is being very helpful by saying well I PERSONALLY haven't had a problem. Well yeah plenty other people have...including people like Kim Swift.

Some people just aren't happy till they have someone to hate. And in this case it seems to be anyone who isn't a fundamentalist, radical feminist.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Why are you guys so adamant that there isn't a problem? Is there something I'm missing here.

How does it effect you in anyway if you admit there is misogyny in the games industry? Please enlighten me.

The op even says 'I, by no means, am saying that sexism isn't a problem in the industry.'

Sooo yeah. What is the problem here?

 

[Phasmal]

Some people just aren't happy till they have someone to hate. And in this case it seems to be anyone who isn't a fundamentalist, radical feminist.

I'm sorry, how is suggesting that the problem is bigger than this person thinks it is `fundamentalist, radical` feminism?
Don't accuse people of misrepresenting things and then turn around and do it yourself.

I find the article basically inoffensive but also kind of useless.
`Remember men aren't all the enemy`.
I cannot ever, having been on the Escapist for a long time, recall a post in which one of the people you quoted refered to all men as `the enemy`.
Why are they being asked to tone it down, when I've seen people on here flat out say that they hate my gender?

EDIT: It seems sadly that while many people are agreeing we should all be reasonable while solving issues, some have taken that as a statement that there aren't any issues.

 

[IndomitableSam]

Until women do not have to somehow 'prove' they are part of the industry or are 'gamers', then there is an issue.

Until everyone - men and women - believe that the gaming industry is a viable workplace and don't belittle others for being part of it, then there is an issue. (This is an issue for both genders, but women do have it harder as they are 'newer' to the industry, and it is a mostly a boy's club, different for each company/workplace, better and worse.)

Until publishers and companies will willingly publish games with women in them or use women testers (see recent events), then there is an issue.

Until people(men and women) stop using 'feminist/feminism' as an insult (and an attack), there is an issue.

Until companies stop using women as eye candy at events, there is an issue.

Until women are no longer degraded online and threatened with rape, and men are constantly called 'gay' and other things by insecure gamers, there is an issue.

Until hiring is done solely based on credentials and skills and not on gender, race, or any other factor, there is an issue.

Until young girls are given more support in getting into the sciences/trades (all sciences), there will be an issue. (I can defend this with first-hand experience, having taught at an all-girls school where the (higher) sciences were somewhat supported, but I was spoken to sternly by administration for recommending girls take up trades or things like game design.)

... So, basically, there will always be issues. But there are a lot that can be fixed and there is a long way to go to do so. But if every person is just a little more accepting (or consideres it a non-issue), then it will get better.

 

[Agayek]

Let's just ignore our problems until they go away with the power of magic. Any other enlightened insights to share?

That's very clearly not what I said.

I said that if we want to fix the problem, we need to be working towards a world where gender, race, sexual orientation, etc are such non-entities that people don't even think about them.

If you see someone being harassed, or discriminated against, or whatever, you absolutely should call the fuckheads on being fuckheads.

What you shouldn't do is go running around proclaiming how awesome you are for being a feminist/anti-racist/whatever, or actively insulting everyone who doesn't immediately jump up and join your crusade.

 

[Smeatza]

I'm sorry, how is suggesting that the problem is bigger than this person thinks it is `fundamentalist, radical` feminism?
Don't accuse people of misrepresenting things and then turn around and do it yourself.

It was supposed to be more of a dramatic statement than a misrepresentation. I apologise for the confusion.
And proposing that the problem might be larger than one suggests seems reasonable.
Suggesting that sexism is rampant throughout the game industry, that every female experiences sexism and if they don't they are an anomaly is just a tad bit extreme.
To highlight the video game industry as being more sexist than other industries, also seems baseless and sensationalist.

I cannot ever, having been on the Escapist for a long time, recall a post in which one of the people you quoted refered to all men as `the enemy`.

I'm not particularly concerned with posts outside of this thread.
When the response to (as you put it) "not all men are the enemy" is "you've led a very sheltered life" the implication is clear. And it is a radical implication.

Why are they being asked to tone it down, when I've seen people on here flat out say that they hate my gender?

Condemning sensationalism is not the same as supporting hatred.

EDIT: It seems sadly that while many people are agreeing we should all be reasonable while solving issues, some have taken that as a statement that there aren't any issues.

I imagine there is an element of bigotry to it and those you refer to are intent on believing there aren't any issues.
Don't get me wrong, there certainly are issues, I just don't think addressing them in a sensationalist light ever helps.

 

[Phasmal]

It was supposed to be more of a dramatic statement than a misrepresentation. I apologise for the confusion.
And proposing that the problem might be larger than one suggests seems reasonable.
Suggesting that sexism is rampant throughout the game industry, that every female experiences sexism and if they don't they are an anomaly is just a tad bit extreme.
To highlight the video game industry as being more sexist than other industries, also seems baseless and sensationalist.

With so many people straight faced calling any self identified feminists `radical/manhating` for just existing, it would perhaps be better just to not go there. People on here still seem to think `feminist` is an insult.
As to the sexism in the industry being more/less than other industries- I do not know. However, I do know that it is being specifically pointed out by women and men in the industry and having experience in the gaming community I know in general what kind of shit women get. I would say the video game industry is probably on the same level as other careers catering to mostly male interests. Either way, a need for change has been highlighted.

I'm not particularly concerned with posts outside of this thread.
When the response to (as you put it) "not all men are the enemy" is "you've led a very sheltered life" the implication is clear. And it is a radical implication.

Now, that is misrepresentation. Those are just two quotes you put together. I believe `you lead a sheltered life` was a response to not having experienced much sexism in enjoying and working in games. It was not a direct response to that one sentence out of the article.

Condemning sensationalism is not the same as supporting hatred.

I don't think people disagreeing with you is sensationalist. These people are not suggesting guys are the WURST THING EVAR, they just think the problem is bigger than you do.They are not supporting hatred. Maybe we do not know the exact scale of the problem, but at least we can all admit there is one.

I imagine there is an element of bigotry to it and those you refer to are intent on believing there aren't any issues.
Don't get me wrong, there certainly are issues, I just don't think addressing them in a sensationalist light ever helps.

Probably there is some bigotry behind it. I don't particularly care. Intent is not magical. Some people are bigots, others just think `Screw it this doesn't affect me I will play devil's advocate for an hour and then go back to not giving a shit`.

 

[Something Amyss]

He's already been "doing" He created a user group [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/The-Videogame-Gender-Debate-Group] for this specific purpose and there have been no flames.

Then he is acting differently in public than in private.

 

[oreso]

Sure there are problems. But is complaining about them on the internet going to help?

And if you were a video games company, who would you rather hire, the person who faced challenges with a positive attitude and some fresh ideas and determination, or the person who complained on the internet about minor misunderstandings until maybe people started making special effort to appease them?

Just to be clear, I am in no way saying that women don't have special and unique challenges (just like any group of people), and that many women don't have cause for complaint. But just because you have cause doesn't mean the complaining is going to help in any constructive way.

Lead by example. Do your job well. Overcome the naysayers. This is good advice for anyone entering business, I think.

 

[sumanoskae]

And this isn't just limited to games--people have talked for decades about why there aren't as many women in the construction, science, and mathematics fields. Gender quotas and forced ratios are stupid plans, our plan should be finding the root of why women aren't as prone to go to these fields as others. And that topic goes into implied gender roles and the impact of media and society on girls as they grow up, which is more or less unrelated to the topic at hand (at least directly).

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.

So, yeah. Get it right people--just because a lot of publishers need lessons in how to deal with demographics doesn't necessarily mean they're purposefully not giving women jobs. Also, what publishers (and developers) want above all is money. There is no money to be made in sexism, all you do is run the risk of getting sued. However, there is money to be made in targeting demographics. The problem publishers is that the demographics are changing and they are not. But, at this point blindly following these demographics has earned them money, so they're going to cling to the system until its dying breath.

You are both right and wrong here. They are not blindly following anything they are paying attention to where the majority of sales come from. From a publisher point of view women are simply not a large enough group to warrant paying special attention to unless its a PR stunt. They are happy to include any changes women want though as long as it doesn't interfere with their core target audience and doesn't cost to much money.

Its a double edged sword though because we will never get a large percentage of female gamers until games start to target them and we will never get games targeting women until they become a large percentage of gamers.

I am obviously speaking in general here because there will always be exceptions.

I think the idea that we have to "Target" 50% of the human race or lose their participation is stupid. Even with publishers actively attempting to target men with their games, women still play the games.

We don't have to make games that are powered by estrogen or something to get women to play games, we just have to stop trying so hard to do things like keeping women off the covers of games, or refusing to publish games because they have female protagonists.

We don't need to design our games to cater only to women, we just need stop designing them to cater only to men.

 

[JudgeGame]

Let's just ignore our problems until they go away with the power of magic. Any other enlightened insights to share?

That's very clearly not what I said.

I said that if we want to fix the problem, we need to be working towards a world where gender, race, sexual orientation, etc are such non-entities that people don't even think about them.

If you see someone being harassed, or discriminated against, or whatever, you absolutely should call the fuckheads on being fuckheads.

What you shouldn't do is go running around proclaiming how awesome you are for being a feminist/anti-racist/whatever, or actively insulting everyone who doesn't immediately jump up and join your crusade.

You are implicitely suggesting "making a big deal" out of harassment and discrimination is a bad thing. I don't see any middle ground in this scenario.

I agree with you that people proclaiming they are awesome for being feminist/anti-racist/whatever is horrible. Being feminist/anti-racist/whatever is the bare minimum anybody should expect from any human being and nothing that merits praise. And if your most serious issue with social activism is that someone insulted you once, yeah.

 

[Lilani]

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.

But is it genetic? When boys are frequently given toys like LEGOs and K'NEX and other such toys that promote creativity and problem-solving, while girls are more frequently given toys like baby dolls and costumes that promote domestic activities and value in physical appearance, is it possible that girls from the offset are being subtly shown that ingenuity and solving physical problems aren't what they're "supposed" to be doing? That's basically what I was trying to get at in that statement. Perhaps we aren't as a society actively telling girls "you can't be a scientist" or "you can't be an engineer," but if all we throw at them is those "girl toys" throughout all of their childhood, is it so surprising that more of them choose to favor those more domestic activities?

But again, that isn't the topic we're addressing here, which is why I was so hesitant to reply before. This will be my last reply on this issue, and I was only making it to clarify the sociological effect I was alluding to there.