30 US Troops killed by Taliban in single attack.

[Nikolaz72]

For future reference, being nihilistic and apathetic doesn't make you cool. It makes you annoying.

And say whatever you want about the Afghani political situation, by if my beloved brother, father or son had been on that helicopter... yes, I'd probably agree that he'd know the risks when he enlisted, that he'd been aware of the dangers, that as a soldier, he'd been placing his life on the line on a daily basis.

I'd also miss him a lot. A hell of a lot. As would his mother, father, brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents, sons, daughters, friends... it's the butterfly effect at work. A life cut short, a friend wiped from the face of the Earth. So show some fucking respect, regardless of political agenda or general outlook on life.

At the same time, I don't believe in double standards regarding Afghan (or any) lives. If you're going to show respect, show respect both ways. Don't dehumanise the enemy... they may appear misguided to us, but they're fighting for what they believe in too, almost certainly more-so than Western troops. Are they inferior because their beliefs differ? Their actions? Remember that life is hard throughout much the Middle East, at times almost incompatible with our Western way of thinking. Al-Qaeda may have stuck the 9/11 blow, and in no way am I saying that retaliation was uncalled for or unjust, but please stop acting like propaganda posters.


.


In summary, war is shit. Death is shit. People fighting other people is shit. U.S. Americans fighting Afghans and causing/taking casualties is shit. Utter shit.

I tell you what, if I knew that I'd end up dying on a patch of Earth in my country's name, only to be remembered solely as a soulless Nazi who gleefully massacred Jews, or an idiotic pawn fighting for no discernible reason other than the benefit of his/her corrupt and underhanded government, or the "pwned" victim of a certain mass-murdering Finnish sharpshooter, or an impure, incompetent and cowardly Persian infantryman utterly outclassed by a few hundred pure, half-naked supermen in red capes... well, nobody who's ever sacrificed their life for something they've believed in deserves that.

As Escapists, as insightful, intelligent people, please show some respect. God knows that plenty of others will be disrespectful enough in our stead.

Some/same people joked about the Oslo killings the same day it happened. Dont think its restricted to this dude. And I honestly think thats worse than this. If anything, this is adult soldiers taken down in a redzone. Not young kids taken down in a summer camp. I dont think they deserve equal mourning.

 

[Dogstile]

That's the bloody truth of war folks, people die.

Yeah, but usually not in this large a number.
We all know people die in war, but does that make it any less tragic than a murder, or even a string of serial killings?
And if thirty people had died due to a serial killer, you wouldn't be saying that people just die.

You mean this war then, because wars before this tended to have far more deaths.

And yes, if you ask me its less tragic. They went out there to fight, they knew the risks. Its sad, but its not as sad as a senseless murder.

 

[Tdc2182]

...huh.

sorry, can't be arsed to feign sympathy for people who willingly signed up for standing on the business end of guns held by goons under some theocratic schizophrenics so that some CEO has his oil fix.

You're an idiot.

First, the "oil" excuse was Iraq.

This is Afghanistan.

Second. They were on a Rescue mission. How's that for lunatics with guns?

No one asked you to feign sympathy. Really, the least you could do is just fuck off. A common thing people seem to overlook in this conflict is that they really have helped out this country. Not the US, not the UK, but the troops here have helped the Afghan people.

Go back to what you do best and play video games. Keep the lunatic Conspiracy theories to the rejects on YouTube.

 

[Peter Storer]

Just an observation, but I was in the army for 8 years, and since I left the army I have spent 13 years as a contractor working with various military forces. In that time I have never met a single service person who could honestly say that they joined to "defend democracy", to "protect their homelands way of life", or to do "the right thing". Without exception every single person I have talked to in that 21 year period joined the military because they wanted a job. Every one of them that was headed for active service in conflict zones was mainly excited about the prospect of the tax free allowances that active service would garner them.
It may well be that there realy are people who join the millitary for entirely altruistic reasons, but I can only apportion sympathy in keeping with the observations I have made.

 

[Brandon237]

What's your take?

This wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been there in the first place.

The US puts it's nose in everyone's business and then cries foul when they get punched in the face.

Yeah, America should be ashamed of itself for going after the people who murdered thousands of civilians...

Actually yes in this case, because their occupation has led to the deaths of far more civilians than 911.

OT: This is really sad, and that were a lot of people, and I do still wish their families the best BUT I am less inclined to feel sorry for them as they are soldiers. Occupying a country that already does not like them. And they did kinda deal a major blow to one of the organisations there, and then had their people back home celebrate about it. So while it is still sad that this happened to them, it doesn't particularly move me considering that they signed up to fight (if they were conscripted it would be different, but they chose to do this) and because 30 is, in major conflicts, not much.

( My flame shield, it is up. )

 

[ResonanceSD]

At the risk of sounding incredibly insensitive Oslo was worse. Not only were there more, they were all innocents. Military combatants losing lives in a known combat zone due to the actions of enemy forces is less of a tragedy more of an occupational hazard.
Premature death is always a sad thing, but this isn't exactly shocking, surprising, or even really news.

Here's an outbreak of perspective. Yes, this is correct. They are soldiers. Being killed is an occupational hazard. I'm not denying their sacrifice, but honestly. Let's not be so quick to forget what just happened in Oslo.

 

[SemiHumanTarget]

That doesn't answer the question at all. The chinook is also used as a resupply helicopter. It's primary role is not just transporting troops and there's no reason to have it filled to capacity with men.

Military doctrine usually strictly dictates how many people can occupy vehicles and checkpoints at a given time under given circumstances. While I am sure you've been waiting to wow people with your military knowledge, the size and shape of the helicopter says nothing about how many people should reasonably be occupying it.

Its simply more efficient, plus, you don't know the circumstances. Maybe the LZ was to small for multiple helicopters and having one just running around risks more helos and flight crews. As a general rule, you risk as few people as possible.

I walked away from this one for a while, but in the interim news came out that the chopper was engaging in a rescue mission. Interestingly, the LAST most deadly single day loss of life for the US military in our current wars was a different Chinook that got shot down under very similar circumstances: high risk rescue mission, high value target, hot landing zone. How many people did we lose in that crash? 16. So clearly, doctrine does not specifically call for the chopper to be loaded to capacity with men.

Also think about this: These were SEAL Team Six guys. They cost hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars, and many years to train up. And even before they begin their training, they are hand selected for excellence. Why on God's green earth would you put 30 of your absolute, top of the line, best men onto a single helicopter going into a dangerous firefight?

So no more bullshit about efficiency and helicopters costing a lot of money. It just doesn't add up.

 

[brainslurper]

The battle of Stalingrad in aprticular where over 2.000.000 soldiers died.

Over 2 soldiers!

*ahem*
in North America, 2,000,000=two million.
in Europe, 2.000.000=two million.

getting used to 1,95? meaning one euro ninety-five cents took a little while when I was stationed over there, but...

Holy crap, I have been to like 10 different european countries, and somehow I missed that... Thanks I guess..

 

[dlsevern]

I agree with the idea that they were killers too, I feel no remorse for them or their families. You sign up for war, you sign your own death certificate. Shouldn't be there anyway.

 

[phelan511]

It's war, people die. Still, the Coalition will kill 100 Taliban within a week for revenge. Bastards. Condolences to those affected by the incident; nobody should have loved ones taken from them.

Not sure if anyone responded to this, but uh...hypocritical much?

'30 guys died? That's awful. I condolences to their families, it must be rough losing someone you love. BUT AT LEAST WE'RE GOING TO KILL HUNDREDS OF THE OTHER GUYS. THEY'RE JUST FACELESS MONSTERS WITH NO FAMILY, WIVES, OR KIDS, AMIRIGHT?'

There's no right or wrong to war. There's just your side and the other side.

I think it's amazing how times have changed...look how many died in any WW2 battle and we're shocked at a loss of 30...Personally I think we should have learned from the Soviets that Afganistan is pretty much an unwinnable quagmire...especially when there's no real objective other than "get rid of random people shooting at us"

It's called the Monkeysphere. The smaller the number, the more 'tragic' it is. Five million people die? Statistic. Five people die? Tragedy.

Wasn't that a quote from Stalin?

 

[Kopikatsu]

Wasn't that a quote from Stalin?

The statistic thing? Yeah. The Monkeysphere has nothing to do with Stalin, though. 'Course, it's only called that by David Wong, editor of Cracked, but it still sounds cool.

The actual theory is called Dunbar's Number. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number]

 

[DefinitelyPsychotic]

Of course, this is tragic, but it doesn't really surprise me. There have been so many huge single losses of life throughout the history of warfare. Do you honestly think that the first wave of American troops that landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day survived? If you watched Saving Private Ryan (which was very accurate when it came to portraying the Omaha Beach landings), when the doors on the first wave of landing craft opened up, at least 15-20 soldiers were mowed down by machine-gun fire from the German bunkers in a matter of seconds.