Seldon2639 said:
kawligia said:
And yet, those people can vote on whether or not to increase income tax on the rest of us which will then be "redistributed" to them.
Thanks Democrats for giving away so much of my money.
I'm pretty sure you and I have actually at some point in the past had this very argument. It still (and always will) come down to how one answers the question "why do some people have wealth, and others live in poverty". If one views it in an Ayn Rand-esque 'people should work to their own benefit, no social welfare, and get what they deserve', it makes perfect sense to be against "welfare". If, however, you view it as "forces outside of the control of an individual make up the lion's share of difference", you have no problem helping those people out.
If you view wealth as proof of virtue, it's corrupt to take money from those people. If you view opulent wealth (a la Wall Street fatcats) as proof of corruption, it's virtuous to take their money.
If it's "these people earned their way" then to allow those who benefit from the welfare state to vote on redistribution of wealth is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner. If it's "they're no better, and don't really deserve the excess which they possess", then their wealth should be redistributed.
No. I do not believe the majority of poverty is the result of bad luck. Some of it is (and I don't mind helping those people) but most of it is NOT. People are usually poor because they lack the discipline to set a goal, work hard to achieve that goal, and make the sacrifices necessary to accomplish it.
Instead of going to school or learning a trade, they drop out and work shitty jobs off and on. Of course there is always an excuse such as "I got pregnant" or "I got arrested" or "It's too expensive."
The first two of the above excuses are because of CHOICES that the person made. It is THEIR fault they made a poor decision. It is THEIR FAULT they CHOSE to have unprotected sex or to steal that car.
The 3rd example is merely an unwillingness to work hard and sacrifice. Sure some rich families can put their kids through school and the student will not have to put forth additional effort to earn the money needed to go, but that's a small percentage of students. Most students have to work to pay as they go, or at least live on student loans. And yes, living on loans itself is a sacrifice. You are only able to borrow so much money. You will have to do without fancy clothes or cell phones do stay on your budget and keep paying your tuition.
Take ME for example. My family isn't rich. I worked my ass off to be able to pay for school. Instead of partying, I was working to make tuition money. Instead of eating out all the time, I went to the grocery store and bought cheap food to eat at home. I had to not go see all the movies and not buy all the games I wanted to. It SUCKS for a long time, but the sacrifice will pay off in the end. And after I did all that, someone who doesn't have any money because he flunked out of school for not showing up, got fired from his job because he was always late to work, and pissed away what money he DID have on blackjack and hookers, wants to demand that I give him money because he is poor and I am not? Fuck that!!!
And you don't even need to go to college to be successful. You can learn a trade. Tradesmen need very little "before the job" training (most of it is "on the job training") so you don't need to spend a lot of time and money on college.
Hell, you don't even need to do THAT! Places like Wal Mart and McDonald's hire their managers from within. All you need to do is show up for work on time and do a good job and eventually, you may get a management position. The higher up managers at places like that make damn good money, believe it or not.
Instead, of doing any of that, people who are destined to be poor will not make the choice to sacrifice and work hard. They will do stupid shit, get in trouble, drop out of school, and then do a piss-poor job at whatever job they do wind up getting, and moving on to another one after they get fired. They want satisfaction NOW, not later. They want to buy that fancy cell phone or that awesome stereo system. They won't have enough money to get a nice place to live, but they will get some of the things they want...more than the college student will. And they can get it for less effort. They are CHOOSING to trade their future for immediate satisfaction.
If you give people like that $100,000 and free school/training for any job they want, I
guarantee you that they will waste the money on shit they don't need, they will get in trouble and drop out of school, or at least not show up to class and fail the exams. Then they will be right back where they started. You can lead a horse to water, but you CANNOT make them drink.
THAT is why most poor people are poor. I have met VERY FEW people who were determined to make something of themselves and worked their ass off to leave poverty but were unable to by bad luck. The only people I know in that situation are handicapped. Some of them, like my old friend who was blind, have a hard time finding ANY job. And any job he did get meant he would have received less government assistance. So it really balanced out. If he worked, he would wind up with the same amount of money. What sucks is he also had a hard time getting extra funding on top of that to go to school.
THAT is the type of person who is getting screwed into poverty by bad luck. I have NO PROBLEM with helping people like that. I don't mind TEMPORARILY helping people who got fired because the economy sucks, until they are able to get back on their feet. But people like that are a VERY, VERY, VERY small percentage of all poor people...far smaller than 47% of the population who are too poor to pay income tax!
