A Beheading In France

[stroopwafel]

ok dude
Carpet-Bombing cities isn't terrorism, ok. Destroying entire energy grids neither. Forcing the population into starvation and refusing to allow it to trade for food is a-ok.
Occupying the territory for years with a military occupation for no apparent reason but to extract the native oil is totally normal.

edit: https://www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/
Go down to this section "Young Muslim Population in Europe contributes to growth"

What Iraqi city did the U.S. carpet bomb? In regard to the food for oil: gassing the Kurds in Halabja is ok? Open aggression to your neighbouring countries is ok? Invading Kuwait is ok? Not to mention the torture and mass graves. You make it sound like Saddam is the peace dove here and that no embargo or military action was ever provoked.

That's where the radicalization came in. The post mortem on Deash volunteers done by security experts, terrorist experts and security and intelligence organizations in Europe all paint the picture of young, disenfranchised, poor men with little hopes of social mobility (often lacking even complete school grades) who lived in homes that were either low-key practicing or non-practicing muslims. These men had a very poor and tenuous grasp on what their religion actually meant but were quick to seize on Daesh promises of glory, riches and a meaningful life and after that got a crash course in the very particular ideas of Daesh Islam. A very large majority of them were also regular cannabis users, ironic considering their claims to being pure muslims. People in their surroundings all describe how previous no good wastrels that smoked pot and played computer games quickly became fanatical, Islamist extremists and then went to Syria.

For all intents and purposes, the Daesh volunteers were people who would traditionally become petty criminals, drug addicts or the very lowest rung of unskilled labor (or societal rejects). There was no greater religious or political motivation behind their actions, often they could barely form coherent religious or political ideas, they were simply disillusioned with life and someone promised them something much better. Not only in terms of wealth but in terms of being part of something meaningful and important.

So no, dreams of a worldwide caliphate had very little to do with it. Being offered a way out of a life at the bottom rungs of a society that they perceived as being pre-disposed against them and into a meaningful life full of riches and glory did.

Many young men are in a similar dispostion but the problem with islam is that their beliefs make it impossible to integrate into western society. It's why communities are segregated with their own schools, mosques and neighbourhoods. Their beliefs fundamentally reject western values to the degree people are also pressured by families to only marry other muslims. Espescially women, with risk of being killed to prevent 'shaming' the family. The religion also has never been through any enlightenment phase. That is why you will hear very few muslim organizations condemning the attacks because the perpetrators were following islamic teachings to the letter. It's not an isolated problem in westen cities. Every islamic country is riddled with extremists of a similar kind with the only form of islamic government being one of strict oppression. It aren't just brainwashed losers in western cities that heeded IS's siren's call. They are from all over the world from the Caucasus, to North Africa to the Middle East. Regardless of intelligence or ambition they all shared that same ideal of an islamic state. Western society is the antithesis to this, and that is why they reject and hate it. I can't imagine you truly believe none of those ideals would have been worth pursuing if those terrorists just had a an office job.

 

[Agema]

That would be true if those people truly consider themselves French. A whole bunch doesn't, they still identify more with their "country of origin".

Maybe they'd identify with France more if France didn't do stuff to make them feel unwelcome. How does an individual integrate into a society that rejects them? When they get abused in the street by racists, and their religion held up for mockery by the state itself? How do any of us make friends? It's surely not by insulting them and punching them in the face.

Yeah. Their superiority complex, complete disregard of western values, hate of liberal democracy, glorification of violence and dream of a worldwide caliphate ofcourse have nothing to do with it. How much does a country have to get punched in the face before it gets the message?

So what sort policy would you prefer to resolve this? Those like Adolf Hitler, or something more moderate like Isabella of Castile?

 

[Generals]

Maybe they'd identify with France more if France didn't do stuff to make them feel unwelcome. How does an individual integrate into a society that rejects them? When they get abused in the street by racists, and their religion held up for mockery by the state itself? How do any of us make friends? It's surely not by insulting them and punching them in the face.

Riiiigghhht, because they don't abuse and mock "French" people and values.

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[Dreiko]

Maybe they'd identify with France more if France didn't do stuff to make them feel unwelcome. How does an individual integrate into a society that rejects them? When they get abused in the street by racists, and their religion held up for mockery by the state itself? How do any of us make friends? It's surely not by insulting them and punching them in the face.

I think you have a chicken and egg thing here.

They first need to want to integrate as a starting point, before even starting to live there. By the time they're already there with the mentality that needs further coaxing if they are to will themselves to become French you're already too late.

Basically they need to educate people about how to decide to go to live in a country not their own. As it stands they're making uninformed, bad decisions by going to live in countries they hate the values of.


Basically, if you go live in france, you gotta be already fine with the fact that the french will be assholes, and not mind that.

 

[stroopwafel]

Just no. The typical Daesh Volunteer is largely a muslim mirror to Incels, Red Pillers and more extreme alt-righters. Young, uneducated, poor men who feel that society has left them behind. They have no interest (or ability, probably) for integrating into society and are easily picked up by radicalizing elements on the internet, whether that is a jihadist facebook page or braincels. The difference is that the Daesh volunteer will see that society shuns him because of his religion, the incel/red piller/alt righter will see that society hates him because of his gender or color of his skin. These are very, very similar in radicalizing young men into groups were violence against contemporary western society is glorified. The difference was that Daesh provided a direct route to do that instantly (through killing Syrians and Kurds, ironically) while alt righters are still "preparing".

Because the average muslim is no harder to integrate then any other emigrant. In Sweden we have the Bosnians who came as refugees in the 90's who's children are, statistically, among the most successful and well integrated in Swedish society today. Before them we had the Iranians in the 70's and 80's, who are perfectly naturalized as Swedes today. France has an absolutely massive muslim minority from the old colonies who are muslims but are also French to the very bone. England has a similar but smaller minority. In Yugoslavia the Bosnians, Montenegrians and Kosovo-Albanians were all well integrated prior to Milosevic using ethnicity to rally the Serbian minority against them.

There's absolutely nothing about muslims that makes them uniquely impossible to integrate. What we are seeing in Europe right now is simply the product of two decades of poor integration and decreasing societal cohesion on all levels (partly fueled by Islamophobic right wing parties) causing social problems on many levels. Since immigrants are usually the poorest and least socially mobile they are also the first to end up in situations were desperation breeds crime, radicalization and segregation from mainstream society. This is nothing new, it is happening all over America all the time with "white trash", it has happened in every European country in the 19th century when hobos, vagrants and similar groups were largely disconnected from society at large.

I've met way too many well-integrated muslims to believe for a second that they can not be integrated, nor is that position supported by the historical integration of muslim minorities into European societies. That's just Islamophobic bullshit othering meant to cause an even greater divide to them, instead of allowing them to assimilate into society at their own rate and in their own way.

If you just consider the mass chaos and destruction caused by islamic terrorism and islamic state in the last decade alone how can you argue they are even in a remotely similar league as incels or red pillers or whatever other weird internet phenomena? Counter terrorism agencies around the world probably have their hands full on the incel threat and I wonder when red pillers start their own state.

In European welfare states muslims are even getting preferential treatment with welfare checks, collective healthcare and plenty of opportunities with subsidized education and employment programs. You are really trivializing the structural problem here which are cultural and religious and even with socioeconomic factors equal western values are still rejected. Even in well-to-do families muslims won't allow marriage to non-muslims. There is absolutely zero intent to integrate other than on a superficial level that is easily revoked when the tide turns. An islamic extremist isn't someone lashing out over perceived injustice like an incel or red piller. These are people with a clear agenda like the ayatollahs in Iran, the islamic brotherhood in Egypt or the Janjaweed in Sudan. Whether they be shia or sunnie they all wish for a religious doctrine as a country's guiding principle. You have this idea that muslims will forfeit this idea when they live in a European city but the opposite is true. That is why the problems of failed integration become more evident the more muslims there are because islamic beliefs start to clash much harder with western values. Don't pretend European countries haven't become much more conservative because of the masses of muslims in European cities. If you had a muslim majority do you honestly believe we would still have separation of church and state, gender equality, equality under law or any kind of civil liberty? Ofcourse not. Not even a century of 'integration' will ever change that. Just look at Turkey. Even the last 'secular' muslim country has slowly regressed back into islamic orthodoxy whose support of Erdogan is almost unconditional. There is just no resisting the religion's gravitational pull.

So what sort policy would you prefer to resolve this? Those like Adolf Hitler, or something more moderate like Isabella of Castile?

Well, they could start by having an absolute zero immigration policy.

 

[Iron]

What Iraqi city did the U.S. carpet bomb? In regard to the food for oil: gassing the Kurds in Halabja is ok? Open aggression to your neighbouring countries is ok? Invading Kuwait is ok? Not to mention the torture and mass graves. You make it sound like Saddam is the peace dove here and that no embargo or military action was ever provoked.



Many young men are in a similar dispostion but the problem with islam is that their beliefs make it impossible to integrate into western society. It's why communities are segregated with their own schools, mosques and neighbourhoods. Their beliefs fundamentally reject western values to the degree people are also pressured by families to only marry other muslims. Espescially women, with risk of being killed to prevent 'shaming' the family. The religion also has never been through any enlightenment phase. That is why you will hear very few muslim organizations condemning the attacks because the perpetrators were following islamic teachings to the letter. It's not an isolated problem in westen cities. Every islamic country is riddled with extremists of a similar kind with the only form of islamic government being one of strict oppression. It aren't just brainwashed losers in western cities that heeded IS's siren's call. They are from all over the world from the Caucasus, to North Africa to the Middle East. Regardless of intelligence or ambition they all shared that same ideal of an islamic state. Western society is the antithesis to this, and that is why they reject and hate it. I can't imagine you truly believe none of those ideals would have been worth pursuing if those terrorists just had a an office job.

Highway of Death - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Battle of Baghdad (2003) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I did in no way apologize or rationalize the actions of the Iraqi regime which lead to one of the two invasions.

 

[Crystal Violet]

Maybe I'm wrong (I did not scroll through all 18 pages...) but I don't think I've seen the perspective of a French person or a Muslim person in this thread. I am French and originally from Israel and I am shocked by the confidence of people describing how things are in France with Muslims but their understanding is at the level of Emily in Paris.

We have lots of well integrated Muslims here whose religion and culture perfectly fit with "Western society". I am a lesbian atheist Jew born in Israel (I don't normally play the identity card but this is relevant to the context) and I have lots of Muslim, Arab and North African friends who get on just fine. But what we all have in common is that we are middle class and educated and have the opportunity to participate in societal norms. Discrimination against Muslims is everywhere in France. I worked as a cop for years and there was blatant racism and Islamophobia as the default. So of course you have disenfranchised youths who are more susceptible to be radicalised just like the incels in the USA or the Russian street gangs patrolling against homosexuals.

Governments should be considering how to make an environment where as many people as possible can access the aspects of society we take for granted and I expect that these cases of radical Islamic terrorists will almost disappear.

That is not to diminish the responsibility of the evil guy who committed this horrible act. Fuck him. But we should focus on the future so more like him to do not emerge.

- Edited the typo which undermines my own point (oopsie)

 

[deleted20220709]

DELETED

 

[meiam]

Maybe I'm wrong (I did not scroll through all 18 pages...) but I don't think I've seen the perspective of a French person or a Muslim person in this thread. I am French and originally from Israel and I am shocked by the confidence of people describing how things are in France with Muslims but their understanding is at the level of Emily in Paris.

We have lots of well integrated Muslims here whose religion and culture perfectly fit with "Western society". I am a lesbian atheist Jew born in Israel (I don't normally play the identity card but this is relevant to the context) and I have lots of Muslim, Arab and North African friends who get on just fine. But what we all have in common is that we are middle class and educated and have the opportunity to participate in societal norms. Discrimination against Muslims is everywhere in France. I worked as a cop for years and there was blatant racism and Islamophobia as the default. So of course you have disenfranchised youths who are more susceptible to be radicalised just like the incels in the USA or the Russian street gangs patrolling against homosexuals.

Governments should be considering how to make an environment where as many people as possible can access the aspects of society we take for granted and I expect that these cases of radical Islamic terrorists will almost disappear.

That is not to diminish the responsibility of the evil guy who committed this horrible act. Fuck him. But we should focus on the future so more like him to do not emerge.

- Edited the typo which undermines my own point (oopsie)

That's easy to say, but it's going to be extremely hard to do so long as terror attack perpetrated by Muslim keep happening. Anyone who think Muslim are dangerous extremist had more than what they needed to reinforce their ideas in this week alone. You can't really expect animosity toward Muslim to decrease when beheading over cartoon happens.

Part of the problem is also that emigration is changing, before people who emigrated to new country had few link to their origin country (no easy to talk, no video conversation, no internet to read local news, very expensive to go back home) this forced more integration. That's why many 3rd+ generation of immigrant are well integrated. But newer immigrant often don't mingle with their host country because it's much easier for them to remain linked to their old country, someone pointed out that the Turkish diaspora often have very positive view of Erdogan because they almost exclusively consume Turkish news (which are almost all under the control of government sympathizer) and don't see the news from their host country, which would be far more negative of him (which would be much more accurate).

The only solution I see out of this would be for very strong demonstration of good will from the Muslim community and rejection of the extremist minority. They already do this, but right now those voices are getting drowned out by people criticizing France over the cartoon, and that simply won't do.

 

[Crystal Violet]

If you just consider the mass chaos and destruction caused by islamic terrorism and islamic state in the last decade alone how can you argue they are even in a remotely similar league as incels or red pillers or whatever other weird internet phenomena?

I don't think the argument is of scale, it is an argument that the same demographic who are ostracised in the same way and find like-minded people at the similar fringes can be directed towards violence. We have seen this play out with non-Muslim white people in Spain, USA, Northern Ireland, Germany...

In European welfare states muslims are even getting preferential treatment with welfare checks, collective healthcare and plenty of opportunities with subsidized education and employment programs.

This is not true at all and can be very quickly debunked very easily. There are no countries that I know of (and I have researched this) that offer Muslims any more welfare benefits than people of other religions and in fact most of their opportunities are reduced. In France where I grew up most of my life and England where my dad's family is from, identical job applications are 3-4 times less likely to be accepted if they have an Arab-sounding name.

Even in well-to-do families muslims won't allow marriage to non-muslims.

Oh no! My Swedish friend and his Moroccan Muslim wife will be devastated to hear.

There is absolutely zero intent to integrate other than on a superficial level that...

Almost every study that has ever been published you will find contradicts this claim and all the rest of the silly stuff in this entire paragraph.

I do not know why I argue as you have already made up your mind. This is clear as you have made too many untrue claims which quickly fail the fact-checks. I hope that you will be open to change your mind.

 

[Crystal Violet]

That's easy to say, but it's going to be extremely hard to do so long as terror attack perpetrated by Muslim keep happening. Anyone who think Muslim are dangerous extremist had more than what they needed to reinforce their ideas in this week alone. You can't really expect animosity toward Muslim to decrease when beheading over cartoon happens.

I am arguing for policy to better tackle the problems that allow extremism to appear. This can include Muslim extremism, Right-Wing extremism or any other form we have seen in recent years. My point was mostly aimed for the people who say that Islam is simply not compatible with Western values as this is not true. How the media increases the negative views is a different story.

Part of the problem is also that emigration is changing, before people who emigrated to new country had few link to their origin country (no easy to talk, no video conversation, no internet to read local news, very expensive to go back home) this forced more integration. That's why many 3rd+ generation of immigrant are well integrated. But newer immigrant often don't mingle with their host country because it's much easier for them to remain linked to their old country, someone pointed out that the Turkish diaspora often have very positive view of Erdogan because they almost exclusively consume Turkish news (which are almost all under the control of government sympathizer) and don't see the news from their host country, which would be far more negative of him (which would be much more accurate).

It mostly depends on the demographics and availability of opportunities for those migrants. Poor Irish and Italian immigrants in the United States caused a lot of crime there because they came from such demographics but Chinese and Indians were usually from wealthier and more educated families. I will try to find the study when I am home but it is shown that Turkish support for Erdogan is very correlated with income and education.

The only solution I see out of this would be for very strong demonstration of good will from the Muslim community and rejection of the extremist minority. They already do this, but right now those voices are getting drowned out by people criticizing France over the cartoon, and that simply won't do.

There is no one community but even if there was what more do you want? Every time there is an attack by an Islamic extremist the Muslim leaders in this country almost always publicly condemn these violences and restate their intent to drive their communities away from violence. And still every right-wing newspaper asks "where are the Muslims condemning the violence?" Fucking Google it, right-wing media! It only took me 30 seconds and I don't even speak good English!

 

[Agema]

Maybe I'm wrong (I did not scroll through all 18 pages...) but I don't think I've seen the perspective of a French person or a Muslim person in this thread. I am French...

Okay, but are you sure you are irrational to get angry at Emily In Paris? It seems a rational thing to do to me.

Riiiigghhht, because they don't abuse and mock "French" people and values.

I'm sure some of them do. (So do I mock the French, of course: but in my defence I'm English, so I'm virtually legally obliged to even though I like France)

But it is not on the same level, in that your average French Muslim will believe themselves to be French. To effectively tell them they are not French - which is what a lot of the attacks on them are - is to attack their very identity. And if their French identity is damaged and denied, then what loyalty should France expect from them?

 

[Iron]

Okay, but are you sure you are irrational to get angry at Emily In Paris? It seems a rational thing to do to me.



I'm sure some of them do. (So do I mock the French, of course: but in my defence I'm English, so I'm virtually legally obliged to even though I like France)

But it is not on the same level, in that your average French Muslim will believe themselves to be French. To effectively tell them they are not French - which is what a lot of the attacks on them are - is to attack their very identity. And if their French identity is damaged and denied, then what loyalty should France expect from them?

Do you follow what Macron is doing? He recognized a difference between "enlightened" and "dark" Islam. That a pretty brazen thing to do publicly and officially. Essentially a state-sponsored or encouraged brand of Islam, which is an attempt to tie the Islamic clergy to the state-apparatus which is entirely, completely, wholly illegal under the French current set of laws (and probably the constitution).

 

[Crystal Violet]

Okay, but are you sure you are irrational to get angry at Emily In Paris? It seems a rational thing to do to me.

Good point. I will change my line to reflect the rationality of my ire.

But it is not on the same level, in that your average French Muslim will believe themselves to be French. To effectively tell them they are not French - which is what a lot of the attacks on them are - is to attack their very identity. And if their French identity is damaged and denied, then what loyalty should France expect from them?

You make a very good point that is so true in my case. I emigrated from Israel to France when I was a child and nobody has ever questioned my "Frenchness" because of my white skin and blue eyes. I am not religious but my mum is an obnoxiously Jewish Israeli and she has faced some discrimination but less than Muslims. There is a paradox among the right wing in France that we must "Be French" and French-born Muslims are expected to comply as well but are denied that identity.

 

[Gordon_4]

Good point. I will change my line to reflect the rationality of my ire.



You make a very good point that is so true in my case. I emigrated from Israel to France when I was a child and nobody has ever questioned my "Frenchness" because of my white skin and blue eyes. I am not religious but my mum is an obnoxiously Jewish Israeli and she has faced some discrimination but less than Muslims. There is a paradox among the right wing in France that we must "Be French" and French-born Muslims are expected to comply as well but are denied that identity.

Who is Emily, why is she in Paris and why do you hold her in contempt?

 

[Crystal Violet]

Who is Emily, why is she in Paris and why do you hold her in contempt?

I'm sorry, I tried to explain but I went into another emotional outburst and could not stop my hands from convulsing in rage.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Sadly, I very much disagree. It is a zero sum game in that everyone of us only has finite time each day to devote to things happening around us. This includes politicians, legislators, journalists and everyone else who tries to create a better society in some way. When something like this comes along and grabs everyone's attention it will inescapably takes attention off of the terrible deeds done against other people. Every time we focus on the violence against critics of Islam, we have to take focus off the violence towards LGBTQ people and other minorities (if there was one to begin with). It is also a major problem, zero sum game or not, when scattered and infrequent violence against critics of Islam can get a weeks news cycle worth of first page attention, while frequent, systemic violence against LGBTQ people barely garners weekly reporting.

K. Stop advocating for LGBTQ people. The environment is far more important as it concerns everyone and every time we focus on LGBTQ people we are diverting attention front the ever increasing issue of environmental destruction.

 

[Kae]

K. Stop advocating for LGBTQ people. The environment is far more important as it concerns everyone and every time we focus on LGBTQ people we are diverting attention front the ever increasing issue of environmental destruction.

This is absolutely ridiculous, there's no reason why both issues can't be addressed.

 

[Houseman]

This is absolutely ridiculous, there's no reason why both issues can't be addressed.

Tell that to Gethsemani