A better protest than going vegetarian

[omega 616]

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I would rather be shot in the head without me knowing it's coming that be drowned, which is just the opposite for fish. So yeah, there are better ways to die, not knowing it's coming is better than enduring a few moments of struggling to breathe.

"Death does only occur in an instant, with a minute or two of delay, if you're lucky", it's not instant then. A fish struggles by flopping about, a cow gets a bolt to the head and drops into unconsciousness then gets killed, it has no idea other than feeling the tip of the bolt gun on it's head before the bolt is fired.

I am pretty sure if asked 1,000 people which they would prefer, most (if not all) would say the cow way rather than the fish. It's not a lesser life 'cos it swims and you think it lives better.

Like I said battery cows don't like good lives but you never commented on the free range cows who live outside almost constantly from birth, eating nothing but grass. You even said it yourself "especially if we apply the pollution of water you mentioned and other things" free range cows live better lives than fish and there death is quicker and less painful or stressful.

You can eat what you like and call yourself what you like, I can call myself a female but it isn't true. The definition of a veggy is "I won't eat meat but will consume animal products" fish is made of meat, so eating fish meat is not being a veggy. I'm not attacking you just the fallacy that "I don't eat meat ... except fish", unless somebody can tell me why a fish isn't meat I will stand by that point.

A fish has a heart beat, it mates like animals, it thinks, it has instincts beyond (lets aim for the sun), it has muscles and tendons, everything about it is meat and flesh ... it is classified as an animal, so eating it stops you from being a veggy.

If you want to call yourself a part time veggy, then sure I can go with that but eating a fish and claiming to be a veggy doesn't make sense.

 

[Beliyal]

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What you said all stands. I get what you mean and it's a horrifying death (I am terrified of drowning, personally), but I didn't compare the life or death of a fish with free range cows, but with the battery cows, the ones who suffer their entire lives in a slaughterhouse. And I did address free range cows, here: "You mentioned free range cows and I saw that type of farms and it's awesome and I'd advise people to buy that meat, not only because of animals, but because it probably is more healthy than meat from slaughterhouses. And if I get back to eating meat, I'd be trying to buy that kind of meat, for sure."" I am happy when cows are bred like that, it's how it should be everywhere. Unfortunately, it's not like that in most cases. I'll say again that I'm not against killing animals or eating meat, but only when that is done in the most humane way possible and while assuring the animal will have a decent life. If we could obey the "rules" of humane treatment and humane killing (like it is done on animal-friendly farms), I don't think anyone but the most annoying and obnoxious people would protest.

Also, there are various types [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Varieties_of_vegetarianism] of vegetarians. I just use that word to simplify posting. Technically, I'd be a pescetarian. Which is a very stupid word and I'm not sure how many people are aware of the varieties, so I just say "I'm a vegetarian, except I eat fish" (others do that for similar reasons, although some people dismiss fish as meat. I have no idea what is their reasoning). As a matter of fact I usually just say "I don't eat any meat other than fish", as this term "vegetarian" has some socially negative stereotypes attached to it ("crazy PETA activist that throws meat out of people's plates" stereotype). I am a pescetarian for many reasons, moral ones being just one small branch of them. All things considered, I love fish, it helps me stay healthy and living in a Mediterranean country, it's a big part of our lifestyle and culture (and we have healthy fish farming, not the industrial kind), which are just three things I can remember right now that outweigh the fact that fish dies a horrible death, while living a relatively stress, pain and fear free life. It's not perfect and fish are still living beings though. Sometimes I feel sorry, but I try not to exaggerate or waste any of it.

 

[Ghengis John]

Oh don't be so sensitive, they're doing it for your own good. Meat is delicious and they just want to share it with you. You can go to meat heaven too, but you have to let Bacon Christ into your heart.

Like, specifically, you have to let him clog up your aorta.

This is my favorite quote of the entire thread, (so far). You seem like a very intelligent person. Now I wish I had something equally clever and humorous to add myself, but sadly I lack any strong feelings one way or the other. So I'll simply add: Kudos.

We are, in theory, hunters - our direct ancestors hunted animals, cooked and ate their meat. No scavenging unless dire circumstances emerged

I have to wonder what you mean here. Humans were scavengers before they ever were hunters. Even the most basic (and incredible) form of hunting, Persistence Hunting, still required a spear. We were scavengers for so long in fact that fresh red meat actually tastes bad to us even today. Which is why butchers will age meat on a hook anywhere from 3 days to three weeks. And I don't think our ancestors would have passed on a corpse if they found one, even after hunting came into common practice. If you just meant we're capable of more than scavenging that I understand.

 

[orangeapples]

My main problem with vegetarians (mostly the Vegans) is how they try to disguise their vegetables as meat.

There was some group of people on campus giving away free hot dogs, and I figured, free hot dog, why not? So I got one, took a bite and immediately spat it out and said, "This has got to be the worst hot dog I have ever had. What is this?" Then the people explained to me that they were actually giving away free vegetarian hot dogs and would inform people after they had finished that fake meat can taste just as good as regular meat. I then told them that it has been a massive failure.

If I'm promised meat I want meat, and if I'm promised vegetables I'm expecting vegetables. Would you eat a stick of celery if it was made of ground beef? No (okay, so a few of you might). Likewise, I do not want a hot dog made of mashed vegetables and meat flavoring.

I think the only exception is Tofu. I had tofu burger... That is also weird. Tofu is great; when cooking with something like ground beef, you can get away with a mix of half ground beef and half ground tofu and no one will know what you did (similar texture and the meat flavor will overpower the tofu), but if you go all tofu it is really obvious.

 

[alandavidson]

I like your idea, it makes sense and it will ultimately help local farmers.

Personally, I'm pretty much a vegetarian because I'm allergic to a crapton of foods (which includes most meats) and have to very carefully watch what I eat. It's not for political/animal rights/whatever reasons, it's just to keep me from being in insane amounts of pain and bleeding from the inside.

For those who do it for reasons other than health, just make sure you get enough protein.

 

[Beliyal]

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I did before&after tests, there was no significant difference in favour of before. The most iron I had was while I was taking the pills, obviously. If we remove the pills, the numbers said that the situation before was terrible and the situation after was substantially less terrible, but still, anaemia is present (due to genetics, as the tests showed). However, the feeling is different. Before, I couldn't do much physical work and everything quickly made me feel weak and tired. I couldn't train volleyball anymore and as much as I loved skiing, I had troubles with it, because everything tired me easily and I was eating meat at that time, even more than before because the doctors recommended it (I remember my grandma cooking me various types of liver all the time). Now, however, no such problems occurred. I study archaeology, we go to digs for two weeks and we do physical work 8 hours a day and honestly, I was a bit afraid I might not be able to do it, but when I got there, I had no problems. People were actually quite amazed that after 8 hours of hard work, I required no sleep when we would get home, like many others did. And I finally enjoy skiing again without being tired. But it depends on the person, of course. I believe it's because I generally started eating more varied food and I really love it more than what I ate before. Before, I couldn't really eat anything else than meat, because it filled me too quickly and I couldn't eat much of it. But vegetarian food I can eat a lot and I believe it gives me much more vitamins than poor half a stake (literally, I was full after half a stake, it annoyed everyone) I could barely put in me. An entire bowl of some Chinese cuisine I find much more tasty and much more nutrient.

About periods, yeah, I've heard of situations like that. My situation was horrible, because I was constantly afraid I'd get those problems when I really have things to do. But now, I have no problems at all. My period is not only completely non-painful, it's also less violent, and lasts a day or two less (before, it really got on my nerves wearing pads 7 or 8 days, now it's down to 6 or 5). I've also been experimenting a bit and I noticed that eating a lot of fruit in days before my period completely removes any possible problem of my period, even the actual awareness that I got it. Again, it depends on the person. As is the rest of it; some people are just not for it. I can name a few people I know who would never be able to live without meat, and most probably for a good reason. Once, I thought I'd never be able too, but then I tried (I really had nothing to lose, my health literally could not have gotten worse at that point) and I started feeling better. I didn't switch over night, it was gradual, and I gradually realized that I need less and less meat until one day I abandoned it and never picked it up again. Now, I am careful and I still eat fish and eggs for example, they are good for some things that I do not get from meat (eggs for vitamin B12 for example).

I'm aware of the normal slaughterhouses, thankfully, not all are horrible. But the horrible ones exist, even outside religious ones. No one can know for sure how many of them are like that, so we can just throw assumptions at each other which really does nothing. It would be nice if farms could take over the slaughterhouse animals, because, whatever we say, I'm sure that living in an open field is better than anything else, but as I said numerous times, it's not an issue that will be solved quickly. However, raising the awareness and imposing laws that ensure humane treatment and humane death of those animals are generally making things better, even in slaughterhouses (like the one you described).

 

[Twilight_guy]

Good, I like it. Lots of people are vegetarians for other reasons though, such as not wanting to eat animals at all.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

From what I've seen in the UK, free range has become a class issue, with a feeling that only the paupers would buy cheap eggs and meat, free range being the bare minimum and full on organic being the ideal.

I have to admit the marketing has kind of worked, I do feel kinda bad if I'm having a tight week and have to get 6 'value' eggs instead of the free range ones.

Marcus Brigstocke made a controversial point about free range chickens, about people saying they can't afford ethically farmed meat, as they queue up with seven packs of Pringles in their trolley and 200 cigarettes.

I'm sure a lot of people can't afford to go organic or free range, but there's some who just don't want to and would rather get another bar of chocolate instead of supporting better treatment for the animals.

We can't force it, but we can push change along with a kind of mass peer pressure, same as seatbelts and smoking.

 

[robert01]

Here we go:

I am not a vegetarian.
Here is the problem with your logic:

Back in the day meat production facilities used to generally follow the guidelines that were put in place regarding the slaughtering of animals. And then the population boomed and demand shot through the fucking roof. In order to meet that demand of the grocers and butchers they had to start cutting a lot of fucking corners to meet the quotas, so for this you can thank all the fast food chains, etc that shove cheap meat down our throats.

There are places that sell meat that is grown in a ethical environment(free range, or claims it is), and it costs and arm and a fucking leg because they produce that much less meat than their counterparts. The space that it takes to raise 1 pig, you can raise 3 or 4. Instead of being ethical when you kill the pig, you can lead it outside and smash it over the head with a wrench of brick until it is dead, saves you the cost for slaughtering it. This is the behavior that we encouraged by eating so much mass produced meats, and it is a cycle that will never end.

 

[novixz]

They could free animals and release them to the wild.... IDK I'm tired. They could throw vegetables at meat processing plants.

Just to put up an argument with vegetarians, a farmer isn't going to do anything that is going to hurt his cattle, they get a fine, go to jail, all that stuff. Like if a farmer clips a chickens beak, it's not cruelty. It's to keep the chickens from killing each other, so one doesn't establish dominance and the weaker ones get beaten to death. Yeah they keep them in closed spacing that's because farming is expensive, and sometimes you just have to make due with what's you're given. Also it's against the law to do stuff like that. A certain number of cows need 1 to 2 acres to graze and grow up, if the farmer doesn't meet this standard, it is considered animal cruelty. Just imagine having to tell some convicts that you went to prison over the fact you didn't give a cow enough space. Unless that farmer wants to be somebody's ***** he'll do what's right for him and the animals.

 

[pppppppppppppppppp]

Yeah... Gotta control the animal population, anyway... And stop eating all the oxygen-making plants, goddammit!

Ugh, can people stop using this argument please?

There's a difference between hunting and raising an animal, and a difference between farming and gathering. Making/killing livestock in a farm/factory does nothing to the population of wildlife because the animals that die wouldn't have been born if it wasn't for the farmer. Same with raising plants; it's actually putting oxygen into the environment because those crops wouldn't have been there at all if the farmer hadn't planted them.

But you're just trying to be funny, and I'm being a buzzkill, so carry on if you must.

 

[lacktheknack]

It's a good idea.

But never eating meat is better.

I mean, it's not like millions of insects, rodents and other wildlife are killed every year by the machines that harvest our vegetables etc...

Well played. I wonder how PETA would respond to that?

 

[rabidmidget]

Well I think the best solution is to accept that 90% or more of the human race is omnivorous and won't stop eating meat anyway.

And biologically we're omnivorous scavengers anyways, so let's keep everything on the plate. We do have a pretty terrifying bite as well.

Almost right. Our ancestors were first herbivores, then scavengers. We are, in theory, hunters - our direct ancestors hunted animals, cooked and ate their meat. No scavenging unless dire circumstances emerged.

And while we're at biting - I heard from my professor that every human is strong enough to bite his own fingers off. The only things stopping us are fear of pain, pain itself, perspective of being crippled and above all, logic and reason. But in the face of mortal danger (like I dunno, a black widow bit the finger and poison is gonna spread, but you are 5 hours from any civilization...), it is possible.

Hmm, I need to go try something...

OT: I agree with the idea that it is more effective to buy free-range meat than to not eat meat at all as a form of protest, however that's assuming that's the only reason why vegetarians don't eat meat, many just personally don't like the idea of eating it themselves.

 

[lacktheknack]

Here we go:

I am not a vegetarian.
Here is the problem with your logic:

Back in the day meat production facilities used to generally follow the guidelines that were put in place regarding the slaughtering of animals. And then the population boomed and demand shot through the fucking roof. In order to meet that demand of the grocers and butchers they had to start cutting a lot of fucking corners to meet the quotas, so for this you can thank all the fast food chains, etc that shove cheap meat down our throats.

There are places that sell meat that is grown in a ethical environment(free range, or claims it is), and it costs and arm and a fucking leg because they produce that much less meat than their counterparts. The space that it takes to raise 1 pig, you can raise 3 or 4. Instead of being ethical when you kill the pig, you can lead it outside and smash it over the head with a wrench of brick until it is dead, saves you the cost for slaughtering it. This is the behavior that we encouraged by eating so much mass produced meats, and it is a cycle that will never end.

But his idea fixes this.

If we start shelling out for free range meats, we A. won't eat so much meat, and B. stop encouraging corner-cutting.

A reduction of demand based in ethics, if you will.

 

[Cheezeypoofs]

There are too many causes of vegetarianism for that one argument to cover, though it does work in that particular case.

Not sure if I have been ninja'd or not on this, but my argument whenever a vegetarian starts preaching to me that people were not meant to eat animals is that humans have a set of fully developed canines. No herbivore would have developed canines.

 

[Harlief]

I'm a vehement carnivore...

You eat only meat? That's not very healthy.
I think the word you're looking for is 'omnivore'.
The idea that eating meat makes you a carnivore comes from vegetarian and vegan propaganda. (I say propaganda because these pamphlets stretch or break the truth for a political purpose).

Ethically farmed meat is the way to go!

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

a lot of people think vegetarians are all protesting meat. while really its just most of them dont like meat.

 

[Chasing-The-Light]

I'm a vehement carnivore...

You eat only meat? That's not very healthy.
I think the word you're looking for is 'omnivore'.
The idea that eating meat makes you a carnivore comes from vegetarian and vegan propaganda. (I say propaganda because these pamphlets stretch or break the truth for a political purpose).

Ethically farmed meat is the way to go!

Meat and potatoes! >: | LIKE A REAL MAN! ... Even though I'm not a man....... XD Yes, omnivore was probably what I was looking for... my bad.