A bit of a philosophical type of question....(2 cents welcome)

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cuddly_tomato

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shadowstriker86 said:
A question just popped into my head that i can't quite answer. Who values a life more, an atheist or a person with religious belief? I have no idea, because on the one hand, religious people are usually the ones who go out and protest against abortion (which is messed up btw, cause forcing a woman to have a kid after she's been raped is insult to injury on the highest level) but on the other hand, an atheist believes that this is it, and once you're gone, you're gone. At least thats from what i've come to understand anyway, any thoughts on this?
This is defined by the individuals own belief system and code of ethics. While those might be influenced by their religious beliefs, it would be impossible to say that this was the sole factor in such feelings.

grimsprice said:
An athiest. Don't let the Fundamentalists lie to you. We value life far more than anyone who believe in eternal life. FAR MORE.
I hope you realize the irony in that statemen... you don't do you? You have made a sweeping statement about all other groups that are not your own, after stating that "Fundamentalists lie to you". Well my friend, you are a fundamentalist. An atheist maybe but a fundamentalist non-the-less.

Strategia said:
To be quite honest, I haven't read the rest of this thread, but my $0.02: I've never heard of an atheist blowing himself up to kill people of different (or any) religions.
Now you have. Well maybe not blowing up, but going on a shooting spree and then turning the gun on himself...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Perpetrator_of_Finnish_school_shooting_dies_in_hospital
 

cuddly_tomato

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FeverSK said:
Ahem. I don't remember any communist propaganda that said anything about atheism. Stalin did what he did not because of a (non)religion, but because he could.
Your ignorance is profound, almost Zen-like in it's quality and depth. You have completely disregarded all fact and science in pursuit of your personal beliefs, then ironically denounced all other beliefs as ridiculous for that exact reason. It is quite incredible really. Indeed, atheism taken to this extreme goes beyond religion into something more like Scientology.

Allow me to educate you....

It is furthermore imperative to put the propaganda of atheism on solid ground. You won't achieve much with the weapons of Marx and materialism, as we have seen. Materialism and religion are two different planes and they don't coincide. If a fool speaks from the heavens and the sage from a factory--they won't understand one another. The sage needs to hit the fool with his stick, with his weapon.

For this reason, there should be courses set up at the Communist Academy which would not only treat the history of religion, and mainly the history of the Christian church, i.e., the study of church history as politics.

We need to know the "fathers of the church," the apologists of Christianity, especially indispensable to the study of the history of Catholicism, the most powerful and intellectual church organization whose political significance is quite clear. We need to know the history of church schisms, heresies, the Inquisition, the "religious" wars, etc. Every quotation by a believer is easily countered with dozens of theological quotations which contradict it.

We cannot do without an edition of the "Bible" with critical commentaries from the Tubingen school and books on criticism of biblical texts, which could bring a very useful "confusion into the minds" of believers.

There is a fine role to be played here by a popular book on the Taborites and the Husite movements. It would be useful to introduce here "The history of the peasant wars in Germany," the old book by Zimmerman. Carefully edited, it would be very useful for the minds.

It is necessary to produce a book on the church's struggle against science.

Our youth is very poorly informed on questions of this nature. The "tendency" toward a religious disposition is very noticeable--a natural result of developing individualism. At this time, as always, the young are in a hurry to find "the definitive answer."
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_from_Gorky_to_Stalin

FeverSK said:
Extremist religionists, on the other hand...
Hmm... yes... I do know of religious extremists creating terrible death and tragedy, but I don't remember a case of them putting 20 million people in hard labor camps just for thinking differently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union#Soviet_tactics
 

pedrnorth

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First, the question is rather vague. What do you mean by 'value'? Who sees more purpose in human life? Who cares more about averting death? Or even who has a stronger idea of 'the good life'?

I think that having a transcendental (or religious) view of the world will almost always result in having a high regard for life. The transcendentalist has a high regard for life because he thinks that it has eternal significance. Even the men who flew the planes into the twin towers regarded life as significant - but what gave it significance was Allah who they were dying for.

The atheist, on the other hand, values living as opposed to dying. That is because the atheist only has his 80-some-odd years to live, and then its gone. But as for the value of purpose that an atheist places on life, I would argue that it is significantly less than that of someone who believes in a transcendent reality. For the atheist, purpose only comes to life through living it - and once you are dead everything is purposeless.

There's a pervasive lie in our society I think. And it's based upon the naturalistic notion that this life is all people have got. The lie is that the only wicked thing anyone could ever do is to deny someone else of their life - all they've got. Hence the only people we can all agree are evil are mass-murderers (see Hitler).

While agree that killing people is a horrible wrong, I think we have forgotten that a life lived badly is just as horrible of a wrong.
 

Markness

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RexoftheFord said:
Markness said:
Obviously atheists do. If I was religious I'd see dying as a positive thing. Yay, heaven, everything I've ever wanted. What was all that earth messing about for anyway?
I see everyone saying this same thing. But I'll restate here with yours that it is invalid. It depends on your definition of life. If you believe in an eternal life, you will try your best to live your physical life in order to procure a better eternal life. This is a value of life, just a value of a life beyond physical life.

Atheists would value their physical life, because their definition of life is only physical life.

Sorry for picking you out out of everyone, but it's silly to argue something until the word "life" is clearly defined in the questioning. So any answer provided in this thread would be lacking in the proper background to be rational.
Judging from the OP, I'd say that the thread starter is talking about life on earth. Why would religious people value physical life when eternal life is infinity times better? Physical life is just an uncomfortable stepping stone that needs to be passed before you can get to the greener pastures.
 

Mako SOLDIER

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Ryuk2 said:
Atheists.
Religious people don't like health care, they don't like people colonizing other planets (even if that would save as from world catastrophes) and they have already started religious wars.
Religion is evil.
Um, what the hell have you been smoking? That entire statement is nonsense.
 

cuddly_tomato

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Ryuk2 said:
Atheists.
Religious people don't like health care, they don't like people colonizing other planets (even if that would save as from world catastrophes) and they have already started religious wars.
Religion is evil.
What planet have you been living on? Is it one I am familiar with?
 

pedrnorth

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Judging from the OP, I'd say that the thread starter is talking about life on earth. Why would religious people value physical life when eternal life is infinity times better? Physical life is just an uncomfortable stepping stone that needs to be passed before you can get to the greener pastures.
This is such an absurd misstatement I don't even know where to begin. Let me ask you this: Would you care more about how you live your life if you thought that what you do here impacts eternity? Or if what you do here will ultimately end up in non-existence?

Your statement reflects the attitudes of the Gnostics, who were considered heretics by Christians. Furthermore I don't know of any mainstream religions which advocate suicide. And no, Islam does not advocate suicide. Islam advocates living a life according to Allah's will, which some take to mean killing 'infidels' by whatever means possible. Suicide itself is looked upon as a very grievous sin in Islam.
 

feversk

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cuddly_tomato said:
FeverSK said:
Ahem. I don't remember any communist propaganda that said anything about atheism. Stalin did what he did not because of a (non)religion, but because he could.
Your ignorance is profound, almost Zen-like in it's quality and depth. You have completely disregarded all fact and science in pursuit of your personal beliefs, then ironically denounced all other beliefs as ridiculous for that exact reason. It is quite incredible really. Indeed, atheism taken to this extreme goes beyond religion into something more like Scientology.
Allow me to educate you....

[giant snip]
Well, thanks for "educating" me, but... I was just (poorly, apparently) paraphrasing Richard Dawkins, one of the most prominent living scientists on Earth. So... Go tell him he's ignorant and educate him.

cuddly_tomato said:
FeverSK said:
Extremist religionists, on the other hand...
Hmm... yes... I do know of religious extremists creating terrible death and tragedy, but I don't remember a case of them putting 20 million people in hard labor camps just for thinking differently.
No, they just burn or stone them right away.
 

I wish I had an imp

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I haven't really read this whole thread cuz there's honestly A LOT to read, but my thought is that it doesn't matter whether you believe in a religion or not, it depends on who you are as an individual and what you do with your life! Atheists don't believe in a religion, so it's up to them if they want to live out their life that they have right now (cuz i'm not arguing against afterlife) to the fullest or if they want to spend their life trying to debunk a religion to only a handful of people at most. Religious people can follow the positive teachings of their religion and apply it to better their lives, or they can become one of the religious radicals that we see on the news... Either way, its the individual, what they have in their head, and how they use it that matters!

Me personally? I don't believe in a religion, but I definitely believe in karma =)
 

VanityGirl

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Depends on the person.
You could have an athiest person who doesn't value life at all and may find no point to it.
The same thing could go for a religious person.

I think it just depends on the person themselves and not their religious beliefs.
 

loremazd

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Richard Dawkins preaches gibbering nonsense. He actually writes that because belief can cause you to make social decisions that he views are unfavorable that the answer is that no one should be able to -think- differently. He's actually calling for people to run around and discriminate in response to some people discriminating.

Sorry, it just irks me when people cling to him like he's some kind of messiah.

Anyway, generalizations are silly, especially because everyones trying to dictate about how the "other side" thinks about life. I don't even want to go into how rediculous musing about how other people -think- primarily because you aren't in their heads. I'm going to be frank here, kids, there's more to any political, social,religious groups and even humanity as a whole than what you read in the news. News only reports bad news, so no, humanity isn't just a bunch of criminals and sex offenders, Christians aren't all funeral protestors and murders of abortion clinic doctors, and Muslims aren't all crazy jihadists.

In general -all- people value life because it's what they have.
 

cuddly_tomato

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FeverSK said:
cuddly_tomato said:
FeverSK said:
Ahem. I don't remember any communist propaganda that said anything about atheism. Stalin did what he did not because of a (non)religion, but because he could.
Your ignorance is profound, almost Zen-like in it's quality and depth. You have completely disregarded all fact and science in pursuit of your personal beliefs, then ironically denounced all other beliefs as ridiculous for that exact reason. It is quite incredible really. Indeed, atheism taken to this extreme goes beyond religion into something more like Scientology.
Allow me to educate you....

[giant snip]
Well, thanks for "educating" me, but... I was just (poorly, apparently) paraphrasing Richard Dawkins, one of the most prominent living scientists on Earth. So... Go tell him he's ignorant and educate him.
Well you clearly needed the education, and obviously still do as you fail to acknowledge that your statement was entirely wrong and was proved thusly. You are extremely steadfast in your religious beliefs, as much as any religious extremist. Present a creationist proof of evolution, he will quote scripture over the proof. Present a religious-atheist with proof of atheist attrocities, he will quote Dawkins over the proof. You really need to try critical thinking. Ohh and as for Dawkins being "one of the most prominent living scientists on Earth"... I am sure you and your fellow congregants believe that, but that part of the world that is not made up of Atheist Fundamentailsts don't....

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/03/books/03beliefs.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

New York Times said:
So why is the new wave of books on atheism getting such a drubbing? The criticism is not primarily, it should be pointed out, from the pious, which would hardly be noteworthy, but from avowed atheists as well as scientists and philosophers writing in publications like The New Republic and The New York Review of Books, not known as cells in the vast God-fearing conspiracy.

The mother of these reviews was published last October in The London Review of Books, when Terry Eagleton, better known as a Marxist literary scholar than as a defender of faith, took on ?The God Delusion.?

?Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds,? Mr. Eagleton wrote, ?and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology.? That was only the first sentence.
FeverSK said:
cuddly_tomato said:
FeverSK said:
Extremist religionists, on the other hand...
Hmm... yes... I do know of religious extremists creating terrible death and tragedy, but I don't remember a case of them putting 20 million people in hard labor camps just for thinking differently.
No, they just burn or stone them right away.
This is proof of my point that it doesn't take religion to be a bigoted fundamentalist. All it takes is a complete refusal to be respectful of those who think differently and an unwillingness to believe that ones own position might not be the correct one.
 

riskroWe

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shadowstriker86 said:
Who values a life more, an atheist or a person with religious belief?
Someone with absolutely no value for human life is not going to waste their time killing people or being a humanitarian.
So I think the religious value it more, because they do both.
 

CK76

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The one thing that bugs me as an atheist is the concept that we (atheists) have anything in common outside of one aspect of our lives. Sure, I value life, I know people that do not. Part of atheism is there is no authority or community aspect to dictate values, make up your own mind and diversity of opinion is derived form that.

I am an atheist. I value life. I also like lasagna.
 

feversk

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cuddly_tomato said:
...Your ignorance is profound...
...your personal beliefs...
...atheism taken to this extreme goes beyond religion into something more like Scientology...
...your religious beliefs, as much as any religious extremist...
...a religious-atheist...
...atheist attrocities...
...try critical thinking...
...it doesn't take religion to be a bigoted fundamentalist...
..complete refusal to be respectful of those who think differently...
Just, please... PLEASE, stop.

Living.

Right now.

Are you so ignorant, or just a troll?
 

pedrnorth

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Just, please... PLEASE, stop.

Living.

Right now.

Are you so ignorant, or just a troll?

cuddly_tomato defended his side with logical arguments and good citations, and you respond with...this? Who is the troll?
 

Sven und EIN HUND

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(I'd say make a poll) and I'd say Atheists. Religious people would (in my mindset) amble through life, waiting, WAITING for "heaven". Atheists hold the belief that once you die, that's it. Therefore they would live their lives to greater levels of fulfillment, wouldn't they?

In general though, it depends on the person... My 2 cents
 

feversk

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pedrnorth said:
Just, please... PLEASE, stop.
Living.
Right now.
Are you so ignorant, or just a troll?
cuddly_tomato defended his side with logical arguments and good citations, and you respond with...this? Who is the troll?
Sorry, I couldn't see any good arguments, just accusing me of being ignorant, closed-minded, fundamentalist, religious, uneducated and absolutely unwilling to change my opinions.

Also, I don't think he knows what atheism means.
 

Azraellod

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Let me see...

I consider myself borderline religious, although my beliefs are very schizophrenic. However, I value life as utterly worthless.

My mother seems to be the most religious (Christian) in my family, and she seems most appreciative of life. My father is atheist (borderline anti-theist), and well... it's a bit hard to tell with him. I think he values life less then mum does anyway.

So religious is the most appreciative in my family anyway. I probably don't count.