A City on a Hill Cannot be hidden.

[AngryMan]

Religion has no place in video games so long as people are unable to cope with insults or attacks AGAINST their religions.

If you want to turn games into religious mediums, expect to be persecuted for your beliefs and prepare for all manner of protest from anyone with a different faith than yours.

It's a real shame that this is true. I'm not a religious man by nature, but I'd certainly never think less of a person because of their faith.

The university degree that I'm presently studying for is a BSc(Hons) in Computer Games Design. One of my friends recently completed a study of religious themes in games. Not just Christianity, all religions, historical and present. He found the research to be quite hard going largely because relious topics are so under-represented in games.

Personally, I reckon it's a cycle - developers steer clear of (or tread lightly around) matters of faith because they're taboo, but they're only taboo because people are so wary of dealing with them. The only way to break the cycle is for somebody to treat the matter with the earnestness and respect it deserves, not exaggerated caution.

I actually really like this game concept, and I reckon that it could potentially fly commercially, as well. Games are slightly neglected as a story-telling medium (mostly, developers focus on spectacle) so there's plenty of scope for a really good story-led game there. Nevertheless, the plot would need some element of danger or suspense, otherwise it wouldn't really grip the player. Fortunately, that's already covered by the whole "trying to be a better Christian" angle. A personal trial of faith - a temptation to wander off the path - could make for a gripping story if told properly. There are plenty of books on the subject, so why would a game not work?

As for the person who complained that they'd lack the basic knowledge necessary to progress through the game, I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Games that automatically assume that you know everything you need to are doing it wrong - most games will educate you and hand you the tools necessary to do the job during the course of play. In this context, that's especially easy to do if Brother Paul is himself a student of (maybe even writing a book on) biblical numerology, and players are allowed to reference his notes or manuscript.

Lets say a criminal confesses a murder to you, in other games you could choose between blackmailing him or keeping it a secret. Here you can choose to scold him for his sinfull behavior or encourage him to redeem himself.

A few years ago, I watched a very good British movie called "Priest". The story focuses around a catholic priest, who has a major problem in that he's gay. This is not only a conflict of faith for him, but also a massive scandal (homosexuality was illegal in the UK at the time the film was made). But that wasn't the bit that fascinated me when I watched it. For me, the more intriguing plot element began with a scene where the main character takes confession from a pre-teen girl who confesses that her father rapes her. He winds up being torn between his solemn vow to keep everything told at confession a secret, or actually being able to do something to fix the situation. When the girl's mother finally finds out about the abuse in her family, and learns that the priest knew it was going on but kept it secret, her anger drives her to find the priest and tell him "I hope you burn in hell".

For me, a bad Christian would be one who, when presented with a dilemma where doing the good and right thing involves breaching the dogma of his faith, will stick to the dogma. I'm not sure if you agree with me, Sammy, but that strikes me as an excellent opportunity for alternate endings. Let's say Brother Paul begins as a dogmatic, strictly-by-the-Book type, and over the course of the game is given a series of choices between sticking precisely to Doctrine, or bending the rules slightly for a perhaps more satisfactory result. Sometimes (but not always) straying outside the rules has unforeseen negative consequences, sometimes (but again, not always) sticking to them has negative results.

food for thought. Religion CAN and SHOULD be treated with more respect in all branches of modern media - but respect and avoidance are two very different things, and I would honestly love to see this game made, or even help make it.

 

[jezz8me]

I would not play this for the simple reason that it is purely Christianity. I am agnostic so a game focusing on a certain religion does not interest me however. I feel a game revolving around the theory of religion and the good aspects of it, which you are an advocate of to prevent controversy, and the implications religion causes.

To avoid racism and racial bias it could be in say Christianity and there are the virtuous good intention Christians, the preachers who take it to far, the "Spanish inquisition style who want to heavily punish non-believers and take gods word as excuse to commit the worst of sins and the types with good intentions but bad means to reflect on how religion can be a really great thing but can also cause tragedy.

It would be best done with Christianity simply because t is the most acceptable religion to talk openly about as there is not the controversy as with Islam or large past problems as with judeism (people having problem with jews not jews being a problem).

 

[propertyofcobra]

As an atheist, I understandably cannot talk about if you SHOULD make this game, or my personal thoughts on such a game.

However, I will say what others before me have said.

The world, very frankly, isn't ready for a game based around religion. Atheists will only mutter a bit on online forums at best, or just plain not play it.
But some religious people, oh boy...You're gonna catch flak from them for sure.
"How dare you make a videogame about christians that show us all as babyraping kittykillers?!" (That your game is purely about the positive aspects of christianity would be ignored by these obnoxious people)
"How dare you make a game about the false religion of christians? Only *Insert religion* Is the true way, you heretic!"

A game needs conflict. So you're gonna need a bad guy. And if you base your characters and game on real religion, you're gonna need real bad guys unless you cop out and use demons.
So who are the bad guys of the game? Whoever it is, they're gonna be mightily pissed.
Make it ridiculously over-the-top extremists? The real world ridiculously over-the-top extremists will hate you.
Make a slow-styled game without any violence whatsoever in which you play as some priest or monk solving problems through nonviolence? Your game won't sell.

It would be interesting to me to see a game about real life religion done right, but I believe it would be, at best, extremely difficult.


Also, remember that in Japan, religion = evil. Play a few JRPGs and you will see the common thread: "This religion, (thinly veiled catholicism usually) pretends to be good, but is actually evil, corrupt and rotten to the core and likely worships apocalyptic all-encompassing destruction given humanoid form".
Japan are big on videogames. So over there, you've already got that base idea of videogames going. Any japanese person playing your game is gonna "wait for the other shoe to drop" and for religion to "show its true colors".
Sad, but that's how it is...

 

[Saskwach]

As an atheist, I understandably cannot talk about if you SHOULD make this game, or my personal thoughts on such a game.

However, I will say what others before me have said.

The world, very frankly, isn't ready for a game based around religion. Atheists will only mutter a bit on online forums at best, or just plain not play it.
But some religious people, oh boy...You're gonna catch flak from them for sure.
"How dare you make a videogame about christians that show us all as babyraping kittykillers?!" (That your game is purely about the positive aspects of christianity would be ignored by these obnoxious people)
"How dare you make a game about the false religion of christians? Only *Insert religion* Is the true way, you heretic!"

A game needs conflict. So you're gonna need a bad guy. And if you base your characters and game on real religion, you're gonna need real bad guys unless you cop out and use demons.
So who are the bad guys of the game? Whoever it is, they're gonna be mightily pissed.
Make it ridiculously over-the-top extremists? The real world ridiculously over-the-top extremists will hate you.
Make a slow-styled game without any violence whatsoever in which you play as some priest or monk solving problems through nonviolence? Your game won't sell.

It would be interesting to me to see a game about real life religion done right, but I believe it would be, at best, extremely difficult.


Also, remember that in Japan, religion = evil. Play a few JRPGs and you will see the common thread: "This religion, (thinly veiled catholicism usually) pretends to be good, but is actually evil, corrupt and rotten to the core and likely worships apocalyptic all-encompassing destruction given humanoid form".
Japan are big on videogames. So over there, you've already got that base idea of videogames going. Any japanese person playing your game is gonna "wait for the other shoe to drop" and for religion to "show its true colors".
Sad, but that's how it is...

Where are the bad guys in the Sims? Where is the bloody conflict?
This isn't to say I disagree with your central point. You're bound to get vocal christians who equate games with childishness or satan or insert threat to real christianity here. Then again, you'll get lots of christians who will love it because a) it's christian b) it's tasteful (I'm assuming it is) c) it's good to teach the kiddies about Jesus (this depends on the games but would be a huge part of the sell).

 

[RobotLiberationArmy]

I'm going to be honest here--you cannot be an educated person, at least in the western world, and not have a basic understanding of Christian theology and imagery because without that knowledge much of the western canon is completely incomprehensible. There are also some large chunks of western history in which Christianity is pretty fucking important. The "I'm not Christian so this doesn't apply to me" sentiments I see being thrown around hold as much merit as people ignoring the basics of American political ideology on the grounds that they aren't Americans.

Khell_Sennet, please explain why the hell protest and inter-religious conflict have any place in this discussion. The concept laid out does not seem to be done so in an attempt to convert anyone, so why the hell should we be attacking each other?

sammyfreak's concept is honestly, not a 'Christian' game the way anything mentioned in this thread is. Those games are basically attempts to sell games to a niche market by tacking a "Jesus! Fuck yeah!" message onto a generic game. This concept at least has the potential to construct argument both about Christian theology as well as morality and humanity in general. Paul might deal with a conflict between church doctrine and circumstance, but that's hardly different than a conflict between Islamic doctrine, or simply societal norms and circumstance. Couching a work in Christian imagery is an effective and rich artistic mode (not that I'd like to raise the art issue, I'm just saying Milton did it, so why can't sammyfreak?).

 

[sammyfreak]

Thank you for the feedback Angry Man. An often overlooked theme in the New Testament is the importance of compassion. Infact Jesus many times would break Jewish law to help others, like healing a lame man on the sabbath.

Propertyofcobra, i dont think the game itself needs a villan but i wont completely shut away the idea. Most of his struggles will be against himself as he tries to do the right thing. But maybe there could be a local mob group who dont really like him.

I dont intend to shy away from controversy and there probably will be some critisism of the church. Not mindless bashing of it, but rather pointing out some flaws in how the church practices Christianity.

 

[AngryMan]

Also, remember that in Japan, religion = evil. Play a few JRPGs and you will see the common thread: "This religion, (thinly veiled catholicism usually) pretends to be good, but is actually evil, corrupt and rotten to the core and likely worships apocalyptic all-encompassing destruction given humanoid form".
Japan are big on videogames. So over there, you've already got that base idea of videogames going. Any japanese person playing your game is gonna "wait for the other shoe to drop" and for religion to "show its true colors".
Sad, but that's how it is...

Odd, then, that Shinto and Buddhism are both still alive and well in Japanese culture.

I reckon the prevalence of that particular plot point more stems from the fact that it's a good story-telling handle, than on any real cultural prejudice on the part of an entire nation.

sammyfreak's concept is honestly, not a 'Christian' game the way anything mentioned in this thread is. Those games are basically attempts to sell games to a niche market by tacking a "Jesus! Fuck yeah!" message onto a generic game. This concept at least has the potential to construct argument both about Christian theology as well as morality and humanity in general. Paul might deal with a conflict between church doctrine and circumstance, but that's hardly different than a conflict between Islamic doctrine, or simply societal norms and circumstance. Couching a work in Christian imagery is an effective and rich artistic mode (not that I'd like to raise the art issue, I'm just saying Milton did it, so why can't sammyfreak?).

This. People seem to be getting the wrong end of the stick, and automatically assuming tha Christianity in the context of a game is either going to be a source for all the Grim-Dark bits of the Bible so you can beat them up with various Christ-themed weaponry, or else a thinly-veiled effort at conversion.

There's got to be a middle-ground approach, using faith as more than just a cheap excuse for violence without swinging over into preaching. Telling the story of a man who undergoes a crisis of faith and overcomes it strikes me as the perfect way to do it, provided that the story never descends into proselytization.

And come on, 1950s Mexico? That brings out so many possibilities for gritty "film noir" storytelling that it's got the art-house cinema enthusiast in me champing at the bit.

 

[JackofTrades]

Huh, a good change of pace for a game, nice, there was a game based on a secret code within the bible which would make the decoder imbued with godly powers, your job was like to stop people from discovering it in multiple time periods, it was like Echos of faith or something but it was never finished

 

[sammyfreak]

I intend to have Paul dress like this is traditional monk clothing, but probably a few years older with a long white beard.

The first day he will wake up in his rather spartian room, pray the lords prayer and read the bible passage for the day.

"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

This verse is generally interpreted as an ecouragement to christians to let their actions speak of their faith and that one should not hide from the world, but meet it.

We will then se scenes of him during the morning preforming various chores. After a while a man introducing himself as Gabriel shows up looking for him handing him the note. Gabriel wont be a real person as his name is an obvious reference to the archangel Gabriel, but that wont be revealed yet. I dont want spritual beings to take up to much space, if any here. If they show up it will always been in the guise of humans and there wont be any "divine swordfighting".

Actualy, lets call Thomas, Thomas the Seeker. Paul begains his journey out of the cloister and it quickly becomes clear that he doesnt leave very often.

Hmm, once he leaves the cloister things become more complicated to write, i need to take some time and think about what kind of situations he will face, suggestions are most welcome.

It is important that the cloister stands in stark contrast to the city in almost every way possible. The cloister will be like a lush, tranquil garden. Very clean and very peacefull. And no, the monks arent gonna a secret underground destroy the world mechanism or torture children. The city is mostly gonna be made up of clay and brick houses and everything is dusty, sweaty and noisy. Plenty of gangs driving around, hoars (no you cant kill/sleep with them) and generally alot of obvious misery.

 

[Sib]

to be honest (im not bashing christianity or anything) but this just seems a bit too...controversial, i think is the best word, i mean people will get riled up about anything and everything, ANYTHING.

 

[RobotLiberationArmy]

"Religions are secular"

Not even gonna go here. Dictionaries are your friends.

Also; "but somebodies not gunna liek it!!" is hardly a strong argument. I get offended every time Tetsuya Nomura scribbles out another 'character' but that hasn't seemed to slow him.

Actually, as far as I can tell you haven't even read the concept, you just heard Christian and started ranting about how...actually, I'm not really sure what you point is. You seem to be pointing out that someone might make an anti-religion game. Why that is at all related to the topic is anyone's guess.

 

[sammyfreak]

The Christian community is so incredibly large that it cannot possibly agree on all things. But specific groups generally dont go nuts when they see the other groups doing things they dissagree about. Do Protestants hate Catholics for Icons? Hardly. Do Catholics think Protestants are evil because they allow contraceptive devices? No. Instead they tend to group around the parts of their faith that they share.

Why would a Muslim be offended by a game that has nothing to do with them? They tend to get upset when they are portrayed as the bad guy. Have you ever heard a Muslim complain that there are churches in England?

And there are plenty of anti-religious games out there. Loads of them. Since when is sharing an opinion propaganda? It get constantly bombarded every day about how unlikeable and evil my religion is. Sometimes i actually wish to claim otherwise.

Edit: Your point regarding the potential controversy in a religious game is noted. If you have anything else to add, please do so.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Also in regards to the number 40, i believe it doesnt represent anything specific but is just one of those random numbers that apear alot. But i may be wrong.

it's not a random number, it's a very deliberate number put in there, it has a MAJOR significance.

let me explain, this goes back to a time when religion and science were the same thing. if you study astronomy, you will know certain stars have a certain pattern around the sky and will form certain shapes

mecury follows the pattern of a 6 pointed star, now venus follows the pattern of a 5 pointed star, a pentagram if you will. when they both join up this is known as the Light of God and happens only once every 960 years or so, it is known as the shekinah by the jewish faith.

now why 40 is significant is simple, to early man venus provided a good way to measure time, it would happen like clock work, it is more accurate than the sun. now why it also plays a major importance in the bible and all other religions is the position it holds in the sky during the solistices, both winter and summer. they way it travels is in the same of bull horns, devil horns or the "metal sign" (the evil eye).

Jesus and his fellow essenes were well aware of these movements, they were following things according to the layout of the stars and a grand scheme to make him seem more important than should be.

it's looked over a lot but really it's one of the most important things to man and how we came to look at religion and the world about us.

Religion has no place in video games so long as people are unable to cope with insults or attacks AGAINST their religions.

actually more to the point is most ppl don't even understand their own holy books or their own history itself. also most ppl don't understand the language it's written in or history, well more like they don't think other culture's and their history have certain similarities.

like consider the statement "jim raise fred from amongst the dead", something close to that appears in the bible and is thought of as saying fred was no longer living when jim raised him. in reality it means jim made fred a member of his group, "the dead" is a term we still have today, tho infrequent in use, it simply means a person who is not part of your group. when a person disowns a relative they are "dead" to them even tho they are still very much alive.

actually as my suggestion is grabbing as many religions as possible and building a history learning game out of it, because most religions have very similar things happening in it, the flood story is one, being taught by an older civilization of ppl is another and most creation myths are similar as well.

civ 4 did religion pretty good, the developer note about it in the manual made me laugh but it's so true.

 

[sammyfreak]

I se your point regarding the number 40. A quick google search confirms it as a symbol of trial. I guess you could add it in regards to temptation and punishment.

 

[fix-the-spade]

See, religion is a hot topic. It's easy to offend, and that's why devs tend to stray away from it. Games have enough bad press as it is, if they include religion, things could only get worse. Hell, doesn't anybody remember the debacle with Sony and the Church of England a while back?

But, all the best of luck with your game.

Wasn't that the bit about Manchester Cathredal and Resistance Fall of man?
Where the clergy decided to be offended a good six months after the game had come out and everyone and his mother knew about the shootout in the cathedral. Which wasn't even an accurate reproduction.
Tbh that whole episode stank of bandwaggoning by Dean Govender, if it had really been an issue Sony would have changed the game. Which happened with Hitman 2 a few years earlier.


Back on topic.
Basing a game entirely around christian principles and rhetoric doesn't strike me as a good idea. The mass appeal isn't there.
It would be much the same as me explaining to someone the principles of Frequency dependant damping. They either wouldn't understand or simlpy wouldn't care.
Also basing the entire game around one religion would leave it a little biased, how are the various other religions portrayed? Do they even exist in the fictional world? Depending on who you ask non-christians can be anywhere from equals to sub-vermin, even if the game took an entirely balanced approach to faith it would still be labelled as bible bashing since no other faiths were represented.

Placing the player in multiple characters of multiple faiths (including atheism, although technically thats the absence of faith), all with their own beliefs to follow up, might work better.
Of course, this balance could be left up to the player. For instance Paul could find Thomas on his deathbed. Only to find that Thomas-singh is actualy a sikh. There has been a mistake and Paul has been called for instead of a Guru, but Thomas is on his way out, so there's no time to send for a Guru.
does Paul carry out the last rights even though they are not Christian. Or does he read Sukhmani Sahib, which would be appropriatte. Or simply abandon the man to die.

 

[AngryMan]

If controversy were a barrier to good game making, then Grand Theft Auto IV wouldn't be coming out this month.

People will take offense at ANYTHING. We shouldn't let the potential to piss somebody off get in the way of our artistic freedoms, and as an artistic venture if nothing else it would be a horrible shame if anything even remotely like "City on a Hill" were to be aborted before it even began just because it might put some overly-sensitive noses out of joint.

also, come to think of it, a "Cadfael" game would be awesome... provided it was any good, of course.

 

[Dosed]

Cleverlymadeup, I read the end of your post (mainly coz I cba to read the rest ) and I HAD to look at my Civ IV guide to read it and yeah they basically say "we don't mean any thing by choosing these religions but we know someone will have a go" lol.

 

[shadow skill]

I would love to see a game dealing with the behavior of missionaries who go to "uncivilized" parts of the world and while attempting to spread the gospel unwittingly damage the people they want to save by destroying their cultural identity in the process of spreading Christianity. It might be interesting to have Paul come into contact with different Christian communities that have different interpretations of Christianity because of their differing root culture and cultural experience.

 

[sammyfreak]

fix-the-spade: I want to focus on Christian theology since it is closest to my heart and i know quite alot about it. I also think that having it focus on one specific religion makes it more interesting for the masses then some kind of gray "all religions are the same lalala" attitude.

I would love to see games taking diffirent perspectives on religion. There is beauty in diversity, but mushing them all together makes for a bland experience.