A non-racist look at modern black culture

[BonsaiK]

Stereotypes are often based on observation, not all rappers are focused on drugs, money, women and violence but a startlingly large number of them are (it's hard to defend the innocence of rap and gangster street culture when you see movies like Adulthood and hear songs like Bashy).

Not all metal is focused on satanism and violence, but a startlingly large amount of it is. It's just music though. A movie is just a movie. A song is just a song. Counter-cultural artifacts will always exist in any culture, regardless of race, whether they take the form of rap, metal, gypsy folk tales, subversive films or whatever. Stereotypes are based on observation - they're based on someone observing a pattern and then assuming that the pattern applies in more places than it actually does.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

As long as they are happy and don't ruin anyone else's fun who cares? Well obviously you do but if that is how they wanna act and what they aspire to then so be it. Most people in most cultures and races aspire to do only sports or music and not want to anything worthwhile in either such as physiotherapy or teaching or composition or sound engineer. They all have this twisted romantised view of making it in a band or become the next big sports star so I would not say modern pop black culture is alone in this.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

Anytime anyone goes out of their way to indicate that they are not a racist, you can safely bet that they are about to say something racist. I'm glad to see that OP has not broken that rule.

Seriously, first off, I like Boondocks too, but let's not go confusing it for a comprehensive summary of the issues. If that's where you're drawing most of your knowledge from, and it seems to me that that is the case, then you might not to want to go trying to make arguments like this. That is to say that before you go saying something, maybe you should actually learn about it first.

Second, you'll find amongst any group of people, regardless of race, that there are probably more famous entertainers and athletes than any other sort of famous person. I mean, seriously, if you were to ask any random person on the street how many actors and actresses they could name, and then how many politicians they could name, you'd get the names of more actors and actresses from the vast majority of the people you talked to. But when you're talking about African Americans you've got a smaller sample size to start with, so if the sake of argument, the average person could name ten actors/actresses and five politicians, and the overall black population makes up about ten percent of the overall demographic, then one of those actors and one half of those politicians would theoretically be black. But even a basic sociology course would reveal to you why the average person would probably be able to recognize even fewer famous black people than that. And, yes, even after that, there is a smaller percentage of black people working high profile jobs, because on the whole the African American population is statistically poorer, and high profile jobs take money to get to in the first place.

Then let's address the rap issue. So yes, there is a sizable portion of rap that is pretty much meaningless commercial garbage, and in the case of rap a large portion of the commercial garbage part of rap is the "gangsta" rap stuff. But look in ANY musical genre, and you'll find that a large portion of it is mostly commercial garbage. There is plenty of rap out there that does choose to look into deeper issues, so give it a chance before you go dismissing an entire genre.

And as for your final question, you've made it almost impossible to answer to start with. Higher intelligence almost always correlates positively with age. I can't think of any famously intelligent white people under the age of thirty five either. Our philosophers, politicians, scientists, and all the other men and women we respect, they're almost always over thirty five. And as I mentioned before, since the portion of the population that is black is a minority, there will be less people to start with. But take away your ridiculous "under thirty five" bit, and you'd find lots of people who qualify. Just to name some names off the top of my head, our president, whether you like him or not, there's no denying that Barack Obama is an intelligent man. Neil Degrasse Tyson is incredibly smart. Spike Lee is a brilliant film maker whose movies have depth and meaning, regardless of whether you agree with their meanings or not. No one else occurs to me right now, but like I said, that list is just off the top of my head.

Let me say one other thing as well, have you ever considered that the media purposely chooses to avoid creating intelligent black characters? The unfortunate fact of our society is that we actually like to laugh at black stereotypes, and the media we create reflects this. There's an excellent Spike Lee movie called Bamboozled that really gets to the heart of the issue, if you've seen Network before, it reminds me of Network but with an afrocentric theme twist. Still, just take the time to consider that maybe you've simply been fed media to imply to you that what you said is the case, and remember that like all media, what is presented to you may very well not be reflective of the truth.

 

[Iron Mal]

Stereotypes are often based on observation, not all rappers are focused on drugs, money, women and violence but a startlingly large number of them are (it's hard to defend the innocence of rap and gangster street culture when you see movies like Adulthood and hear songs like Bashy).

Not all metal is focused on satanism and violence, but a startlingly large amount of it is. It's just music though. A movie is just a movie. A song is just a song. Counter-cultural artifacts will always exist in any culture, regardless of race, whether they take the form of rap, metal, gypsy folk tales, subversive films or whatever. Stereotypes are based on observation - they're based on someone observing a pattern and then assuming that the pattern applies in more places than it actually does.

The reason we apply that pattern in more places than it belongs is because we often as don't have the time or patience to examine everyone and judge everyone based on their own merits. We apply judgements like that every day to many things, stereotypes and judgement at face value is more important that we like to believe (how many times have you seen a person or place or situation and had that feeling of 'I don't like this'?).

In an ideal world we could reasonably approach every person and every movie/song/media article and look through it and form our opinion of it based on it's merits and faults, however, this is not an ideal world and taking such an approach would just never work (people are just difficult like that).

Metal came under fire during it's time in the spotlight (need I mention the case with Judas Priest?) and that has largely blown over (we should also point out the important fact that there's a difference between lyrics in a song depicting blood rituals and demonic forces and lyrics that describe street violence and gang culture, bad comparison man), Metal came under fire largely because of the moral guardians panicing and believing that people like Ozzy were turning their kids into blood cultists (something that sounds ridiculous in retrospect) while people today have a case against rap because it reinforces the violent, thuggish stereotypes of 'gangsta culture' (something which is perhaps a bit more grounded in reality).

 

[DustyDrB]

Do you actually know any black people [footnote]and yes, that is an OK term to use[/footnote]? I think you're just getting your opinions from media like MTV and ESPN. I'm not black, but I know a ton of black people [footnote]I'm not trying to be the "I have a black friend!" guy. You just have to go way out of your way to not know a good many in South Carolina, where 30% of our population is black[/footnote], and they are just as varied as white people.

Any differences that exist do so from lingering effects of segregation. Where white people have been pretty much free to do as they please for the history of the US, blacks have only been able to do so for the last 40-50 years (and even for decades after Civil Rights, many racist people made sure blacks didn't feel welcome on many occasion). That sort of thing affects how a culture develops.

But among my generation, black people are no different than white. My roommate (yes, he's black) is the one that got me into bluegrass music, which I always avoided because I thought it was too redneck. And I do know some black guys who are heavy into basketball and rap and are also some of the most intelligent and well-read people I know.

 

[Plurralbles]

*can't be done**

SOMEONE will whine. It's a gimme.

Boondocks is freakin' awesome tho. It makes everyone else look just as messed up.

Bootie Butt Bootie Butt bootie butt CHEEKS.

It's too early in my morning to read your post beyond that. : )

Oh, and Oprah is the queen of the housewife/middle aged woman. It has nothing to do with race.

 

[Blue_vision]

You're right. There aren't many black role models. Really, it's basically confined to rappers, athletes... politicians, actors, activists, musicians, the president of the fucking united states?

And there's kind of a 12 foot fence with barbed wire and armed sentry towers between "black culture" and gang culture. Blacks and Hispanics are the most prominent gang members, just because of higher poverty rates and discrimination. Yes, gangster culture and that rap that associates with it is terrible and should just be eradicated. But that's saying nothing about black culture or rap.

 

[skitzo van]

Wow. This guy deliberately and delicately went out of his way to claim he was not racist and everyone is on his ass about how he is. Bravo. (Flame shield go!)
OT: In my English class I sit around a group of blacks and whatever they listen to or watch or even talk about, deals with black culture. For instance, a few of us were asked who our heroes in life were, and not one of them said a person who wasn't black. I have no problem with that, their heroes were people like Malcolm X, (though I doubt they could even remember a thing he said) and Martin Luther King. But seriously, are they the only civil rights leaders they know? With their logic they could have chosen Abraham Lincoln.

 

[SuperVegas]

Not all metal is focused on satanism and violence, but a startlingly large amount of it is. It's just music though. A movie is just a movie. A song is just a song. Counter-cultural artifacts will always exist in any culture, regardless of race, whether they take the form of rap, metal, gypsy folk tales, subversive films or whatever. Stereotypes are based on observation - they're based on someone observing a pattern and then assuming that the pattern applies in more places than it actually does.

i just have to speak up about this because as a devout metal head i feel the need to represent my ilk and possibly a point (but probably not).
If we're talking about metal and its stereotype, its less satanic, and more like Halloween.
Yes, there are songs about demons and slayers and barbaric scenes of gore and mayhem, but the subject matter is more like escapism and fantasy, which really cant possibly be aspired too, because its just so unrealistic. (theres a whole music history lesson here (i recommend you watch "metal: a headbangers journey for more of it, seriously good doco even if you don't like metal))

Even though rap, with its wealth, fame and gang violence, may just be escapism as well, its easier to forget that, and possibly set a moral code based on a rapper claiming this is what real life really is, if that is someone you look up too. (and i am talking about someone younger than 20 kinda thing)

...and no i gotta disagree on the whole, its just a movie/song/media
these things are very important
(please note: I'm not saying that rap should change, I'm just trying to shed some light on the original question)

Still, just take the time to consider that maybe you've simply been fed media to imply to you that what you said is the case, and remember that like all media, what is presented to you may very well not be reflective of the truth.

I think thats kind of his point (just a stab here)
if he's been fed this, then so has every white and black kid growing up as well.

 

[uncle-ellis]

When I saw the Thread title I actual said out load "Oh boy! here we go!"

 

[Jerious1154]

If you're judging culture based on "who the most famous people are", then you're not going to find much culture anywhere. Who are the most famous white people? Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, and Brad Pitt. Who are the most famous Hispanic people? Alex Rodriguez and Carlos Mencia. People don't become famous for being great minds or for contributing a lot to a cultural identity. They get famous for playing sports or having mass appeal. It's no different with the African American community.

 

[BonsaiK]

Stereotypes are often based on observation, not all rappers are focused on drugs, money, women and violence but a startlingly large number of them are (it's hard to defend the innocence of rap and gangster street culture when you see movies like Adulthood and hear songs like Bashy).

Not all metal is focused on satanism and violence, but a startlingly large amount of it is. It's just music though. A movie is just a movie. A song is just a song. Counter-cultural artifacts will always exist in any culture, regardless of race, whether they take the form of rap, metal, gypsy folk tales, subversive films or whatever. Stereotypes are based on observation - they're based on someone observing a pattern and then assuming that the pattern applies in more places than it actually does.

The reason we apply that pattern in more places than it belongs is because we often as don't have the time or patience to examine everyone and judge everyone based on their own merits. We apply judgements like that every day to many things, stereotypes and judgement at face value is more important that we like to believe (how many times have you seen a person or place or situation and had that feeling of 'I don't like this'?).

In an ideal world we could reasonably approach every person and every movie/song/media article and look through it and form our opinion of it based on it's merits and faults, however, this is not an ideal world and taking such an approach would just never work (people are just difficult like that).

Metal came under fire during it's time in the spotlight (need I mention the case with Judas Priest?) and that has largely blown over (we should also point out the important fact that there's a difference between lyrics in a song depicting blood rituals and demonic forces and lyrics that describe street violence and gang culture, bad comparison man), Metal came under fire largely because of the moral guardians panicing and believing that people like Ozzy were turning their kids into blood cultists (something that sounds ridiculous in retrospect) while people today have a case against rap because it reinforces the violent, thuggish stereotypes of 'gangsta culture' (something which is perhaps a bit more grounded in reality).

Metal and rap is a perfect comparison. Both are youth culture, both were/are vilified by people who don't really understand what it's all about, both have been blamed by moral guardians for corrupting society. In fact, you could throw rock and roll and jazz in there too - the same thing happened with those music styles. Parents were completely hostile toward rock music in the 1950s - it was blamed for rising gang culture, derided as "negro rhythms" and linked to street violence and juvenile delinquency. Sound familiar?

Rap is fantasy just like metal. Sure, they talk about "keeping it real" in the songs, but the fact is that if rappers did everything they talked about, they'll all be dead, in jail or in the STD clinic. If you take time to listen closely to the lyrics it's obviously "tall tales" type of stuff, just like an action movie also doesn't represent reality, and the few times when they're not exaggerating out of their ass, they're generally painting it as starkly as they can, and telling kids to steer clear of the gang culture. Sure enough, there will always be the stupid element among fans, dumb kids who think that shooting or chopping up someone must be awesome in real life because Cannibal Corpse or 50 Cent sing about it, but most people who listen to it take it for what it is - entertainment. Just like action movies where some guy's family gets killed and he goes on a vigilante killing revenge spree are also entertainment and 99.9% of people realise that this isn't the way to solve problems in real life...

 

[BGH122]

You have just said that black people are high on the drug, gang and crime stats. Is this because they just like shooting people, or could it, maybe, be because above whiteys have created an environment where many are practically forced to join a gang due to poverty, widespread misconceptions and racism?

Only once the imaginary idea that black people are different to white people has been removed will you see widespread equality. But unfortunately, black gang violence sells papers, and having an 'enemy' gets politicians elected so sadly we probably won't see this any time soon.

Sorry but this bit just isn't true. Black people's generally low achievements have got nothing (much) to do with racism. More than anything it's because black people are far likelier than white people to be born into a disadvantaged area and to go to a state school. Employers aren't being racist in choosing educated white people and white people haven't conspired in some hideous machination to bring these events about, rather it's just an unfortunate fact that the level of education at most inner-city state schools is so incredibly poor that even an achiever will know less than a relative slacker at a private school.

This is capitalism, not racism.

 

[BonsaiK]

Not all metal is focused on satanism and violence, but a startlingly large amount of it is. It's just music though. A movie is just a movie. A song is just a song. Counter-cultural artifacts will always exist in any culture, regardless of race, whether they take the form of rap, metal, gypsy folk tales, subversive films or whatever. Stereotypes are based on observation - they're based on someone observing a pattern and then assuming that the pattern applies in more places than it actually does.

i just have to speak up about this because as a devout metal head i feel the need to represent my ilk and possibly a point (but probably not).
If we're talking about metal and its stereotype, its less satanic, and more like Halloween.
Yes, there are songs about demons and slayers and barbaric scenes of gore and mayhem, but the subject matter is more like escapism and fantasy, which really cant possibly be aspired too, because its just so unrealistic. (theres a whole music history lesson here (i recommend you watch "metal: a headbangers journey for more of it, seriously good doco even if you don't like metal))

Even though rap, with its wealth, fame and gang violence, may just be escapism as well, its easier to forget that, and possibly set a moral code based on a rapper claiming this is what real life really is, if that is someone you look up too. (and i am talking about someone younger than 20 kinda thing)

...and no i gotta disagree on the whole, its just a movie/song/media
these things are very important
(please note: I'm not saying that rap should change, I'm just trying to shed some light on the original question)

I've seen that film, it's very good. Maybe one day someone will do a similar film about rap music to clear up the misconceptions that people have about that style as brilliantly as Sam Dunn does in Metal: A Headbanger's Journey. Because it's sorely needed.

If a kid looks up to a rapper enough that's he's willing to get out a gun and shoot someone, then what you have there is a stupid kid. Not the rapper's fault that the kid didn't have enough education to teach him right from wrong, and fantasy from reality.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

Until you spend a long time studying this, you can't say that you've really taken a look at black culture. Spend awhile actually listening to music, reading books, watching TV and movies, and going to restaurants all patronized primarily by black customers. Only then can you really say that you've taken a look at it. You're really focusing on one segment of black pop culture and taken that as a whole interpretation of black America.

You've completely ignored the black middle and upper class, which you really shouldn't or can't do. It's like watching NASCAR and WWE and saying that's all white people are into and aspire to. Yeah, maybe the undereducated poor kids might (and even then, that's a stereotyping stretch) but not all white people want to do that. A lot of kids who aspire to be rappers or athletes are not privileged or even middle class. They're often poor, desperate, and fantasize about making millions that their families don't have. That's more a condition of American culture to emphasize the glory of wealth and put a stigma of shame on being poor.

Go delve into black culture more and get back to me. I'll give you a year.

 

[Iron Mal]

Metal and rap is a perfect comparison. Both are youth culture, both were/are vilified by people who don't really understand what it's all about, both have been blamed by moral guardians for corrupting society. In fact, you could throw rock and roll and jazz in there too - the same thing happened with those music styles. Parents were completely hostile toward rock music in the 1950s - it was blamed for rising gang culture, derided as "negro rhythms" and linked to street violence and juvenile delinquency. Sound familiar?

Rap is fantasy just like metal. Sure, they talk about "keeping it real" in the songs, but the fact is that if rappers did everything they talked about, they'll all be dead, in jail or in the STD clinic. If you take time to listen closely to the lyrics it's obviously "tall tales" type of stuff, just like an action movie also doesn't represent reality, and the few times when they're not exaggerating out of their ass, they're generally painting it as starkly as they can, and telling kids to steer clear of the gang culture. Sure enough, there will always be the stupid element among fans, dumb kids who think that shooting or chopping up someone must be awesome in real life because Cannibal Corpse or 50 Cent sing about it, but most people who listen to it take it for what it is - entertainment. Just like action movies where some guy's family gets killed and he goes on a vigilante killing revenge spree are also entertainment and 99.9% of people realise that this isn't the way to solve problems in real life...

Fair enough, I understand your point and agree to a certain extent, but let's remember the famous quote:

'There are two things which are infinate, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the first one'.

The reason I make a difference between the two is because metal's references to satanic powers and eating souls is very much a fantasy (people who try to imitate stuff like that are definately going to be disappointed by the results), going out onto the streets and shanking any muthafucka who looks at you funny is something someone can recreate all too easily (and it sadly happens an awful lot).

I personally don't care about the music itself, it's the people who misinterpret it and see it as something to aspire to who bother me.

 

[BonsaiK]

I personally don't care about the music itself, it's the people who misinterpret it and see it as something to aspire to who bother me.

I agree with you, but there'll always be douchebags like that. I knew a guy in high school who thought Satanism was cool because he liked Led Zeppelin and he was convinced that the four symbols on their fourth album were part of some kind of satanic ritual. He also used to beat up people in the schoolyard because he thought Alistair Crowley said it was okay... I wish I was making this up...

 

[AgentNein]

Woah. Woah. Are we still worrying about "gangsta" rap? Is that still relevant? Is anyone still listening to it?

If I can see a contemporary problem with popular rap, it's the same mentality that hung up the hair metal bands in the late 80's. Being out of touch with anyone not rolling in the bling.

But I'd say the good rap is at its healthiest now than it ever has been. Intelligent, introspective, witty. I just don't see that much "gangsta" stuff anymore.