A point of contraversy (part 1) - Buying a game used is as bad as pirating?

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

No, it's not. Piracy is stealing, buying pre-owned is letting more people play a game they wouldn't otherwise afford. Pre-owned doesn't damage "new" game sales, because people who buy pre-owned wouldn't be able to buy the game otherwise. And besides, any money publishers think they're losing will just drive them to digital distribution in the end, which isn't an entirely bad thing (unless every publisher decides to set up their own distribution service).

 

[chinangel]

I really don't have a problem with project 10 dollar. What I have a problem with is how it's being implemented. Instead of aproaching it as a good thing or a way for people to get 'special content' or worded however you wish, it's being thrown out as an obvious punishment. As a 'how dare you buy a used game!' move.

It frustrates me that companies feel that they deserve to treat me like a criminal for not doing anything wrong.

 

[BSCCollateral]

Do what the Publishers are doing right now. Cut the content of the game, whether with a 10 dollar online pass, by giving DLC for free with a new purchase, but require another 10 bucks for a used copy ... or by cutting the Single Player.

I say good on them.

I'm inclined to agree.

I buy a lot of used games. I don't pay as much, and if the developers want to charge me for the DLC which has already been downloaded, that's entirely fair.

But as a matter of common business sense, leave me enough to engage me to the point where I want to buy more.

 

[orangeban]

Well no, piracy firstly means that lots of people are getting to play a single copy of the game for free, where as used game sales still only mean one person gets to play the game, and at a cost. Secondly, noone makes money from piracy, but the game retailers make money from used game sales (side note: why is there so much hate on game retailers? I live in Britain so I don't know what America or anywhere elses stores are like, but the ones here seem no worse than any other shop.)

Thirdly, piracy is illegal, used game sales is legal.

 

[Robert Ewing]

Preordering games is almost another industry. It helps a lot of people that couldn't afford games, afford games. And it helps the businesses in that industry earn a living. I think it's damned selfish that a games company, who have already SOLD their game to someone have the indecency to not allow them to fuel another industry, that relies on the games industry to survive.

I guess it could be called a parasite industry, but people depend on it. EA and RAGE are just taking it away, it's not like they're strapped for cash! They will get plenty, and lose a tiny fraction of this on preorders! GOD DAMMIT GAMES INDUSTRY, STOP SUCKING SO MUCH LATELY!

 

[Inkidu]

Personally I think the way rage is going about me is pretty sensible, blocking off a part of the game makes sense, it's the same with EA's project 10 dollar, it makes sure that some money will often get back to the devs. I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if they effectively turned their pre-owned games into frisbees unless a code was typed in, from a financial standpoint it makes sense, and it would ensure that the devs got a reasonable amount of money, it would also reduce the markup that game shops could charge.

I hate that all modern DRM is just a punishment against those without good internet. Seriously, why can't the developers just have a place in the game where you can enter your code and unlock it (like an old-fashioned cheat). Nope if you have no internet there's no point in buying it new, because you're not getting the incentive anyway. That's my problem.

Seriously, would a in-game entry option be so bad?

 

[Stu35]

Every industry in the world has a second hand market. Why is the gaming industry the only one which is crying and making a big deal about it?

This sums up my feelings on this.

Whilst I understand that there is very little money filtering back to games developers. Limiting 2nd hand copies of games is not the way to change this. Whilst I am all for games developers making money (and thus encouraging the best to stick at it, improving my experience as a gamer), this won't achieve that.

If anything, it'll limit the amount of money they see - As a real life example I'll use myself: I bought Oblivion 2nd hand, having never played an Elder scrolls game before. I enjoyed it, so now I'm going to by Skyrim when it comes out. Straight from the shop.

Now, had I not seen Oblivion for a fiver at the computer exchange, I would never have even thought to invest in it (I'm an RTS gamer on the PC, a Shooter or Sports gamer on Consoles) - so I certainly wouldn't have even given Skyrim a glance.

To extend this further, I've also bought Fallout New Vegas and Red Dead Redemption, both new - simply off the back of the discovery that I actually enjoy these kinds of large-world RPGs.

So, thats 3 new games, off the back of a single used purchase.

It's one example, and I'm sure someone will have a very well thought out counter argument, but ultimately I will always fall back on the original point I quoted - Every other Industry manages to slog on with a 2nd hand market.

As a final point I'll say that on this, I'll vote with my wallet - and refuse to purchase a 2nd hand game requiring any further money from me after I've purchased it. I don't know whether or not this will ultimately encourage me to buy more games new (probably not), but hey ho - I'm one man, so I'm sure that EA are unlikely to notice in either case.

 

[ultimateownage]

Is stealing a car the same as buying it used?

 

[Staskala]

Why do people always forget about the guy who traded the game in? What will he do with the money/points he got from trading?
Buy a new game obviously, a game he couldn't afford without trading in his old games.
What people do these days is buy a game, play it, trade it in and get a new one, so in the end it all evens out.
There is no fucking disadvantage for publishers here.

Then there's the guy who buys the used game. He doesn't have the money to buy new, so if used games were to disappear he wouldn't suddenly buy an equal number of new games, not even close.
If he really liked a game however, he is far more likely to buy the sequel or other games from that developer new.
He becomes a new customer next time, a customer the publisher wouldn't have acquired without used games.

I firmly believe that used games don't hurt the industry, but that publishers massively benefit from it.
This "used games fiasco" is just a way to make extra cash, not compensate losses they made due to people buying used.

 

[sibrenfetter]

Is stealing a car the same as buying it used?

. I just wanted to type in exactly that sentence .

But seriously, the whole argument about reselling games is completely ludicrous. There is no other product in the world that is even trying to make this claim. Could I then also not resell y house, dvds, cds, or whatever else? Only because the original manufacturer does not get anything for it anymore? The only argument that comes close to making some sense would be if a game includes multiplayer with regard to keeping servers running. But even that is a weak argument as those maintenance costs are calculated in the original price of the product. Whether it is me playing online or someone else to whom I sold it, it is always the that one game for which the multiplayer costs have been paid.

 

[WaruTaru]

Completely agree with what cainx10a said in the link.

What is the similarity between pirates and game shops? They both help advertise the game to a larger market and allow the game to reach more players.

How many types of pirates are there? Two. One who cracks it and distributes it for free, the other who cracks it and sell it for a profit. Both pirates help increase the game's popularity.

What is the difference between pirates and game shops? One of them gains a legal profit doing the same thing.

As a player:
1) If all you want to do is to play the game, download the free pirated version.
2) If you want to get it for cheap, download the free pirated version.
3) If you want to support the developers/publishers, but it new.

If you disagree, answer this: why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness. If its not worth buying new, its not worth buying at all. Save your money and do something else with it instead. And if you liked the game you downloaded? Show your support by buying the developer's next new game. By doing that, you are getting two games worth of content for the price of one new game, yes?

 

[Anah'ya]

Actually the discs will not be in the same condition as when new since every time they are used they will be slightly scratched. Add to that the fact that the data will deteroriate over time it is only fair that used are sold cheaper, just like any other used goods.

I hope you are trying to troll me here.

Used games cannot be sold unless the disc is readable. Once the disc is readable you have the product: The Game. Data. Does. Not. Deteriorate. Data will stay data, unless you are a complete knob-head, install the game, break the disc and then delete the game on your HD.

The only argument you could make is that it is an old game (graphics and technology have moved on), in which case sales knock the price down considerably without having to fall back to "used".

But the issue aren't the old games, the issue in my opinion are new titles (within one year) that get thrown back to the shelves by quick gamers (or bored gamers - or well, the gamers that burn the thing on their own discs and keep them anyway).

Again. I hope you are trolling here. There are only a few things in life that do not lose quality, and data happens to be one of them. If you wish to argue this, take it to PMs. If you wonder why you shouldn't, I work with it everyday.

 

[Anah'ya]

1) If all you want to do is to play the game, download the free pirated version.
2) If you want to get it for cheap, download the free pirated version.
3) If you want to support the developers/publishers, but it new.

If you disagree, answer this: why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness. If its not worth buying new, its not worth buying at all. Save your money and do something else with it instead. And if you liked the game you downloaded? Show your support by buying the developer's next new game. By doing that, you are getting two games worth of content for the price of one new game, yes?

I disagree.

Buy it or don't touch it. No one is entitled to entertainment for free. If you want free entertainment, go take a walk in the woods.

 

[randomsix]

Help me understand this:

The publisher of the game has sold X copies to Retailer Y for price Z. Retailer Y sells the games, and gets a certain amount of those traded back because they didn't like it or whatever. After that, they prop it up in the used games section for resale at a lesser price.

Retailer Y will get a little more money out of the purchase because they don't have to throw out a game. But the amount of X copies sold, and with that the Z Price, isn't changed is it? It's not that with every single purchase a little of that money has to be put into an envelope and sent to the publisher, right? So how does selling used games hurt the publisher like piracy does?

This is not me trolling or whatever, I'm just curious if my train of logic works or not.

because if 1/2X people trade their games in and another 1/2X don't buy new games because they know they can get it cheaper used the publisher only get's money for X copies sold despite the fact that 1,5X people bought the game. Now without used sales they would get 50% more money, with used sales gamestop get's more cash.

Where are you getting that completely random and baseless statistic from? Like, you literally pulled 50% out of your ass. You can't have 50% more of 100%. They made 100% of the money they were gonna make off that game. You're assuming the same number of people who bought the game new would buy it used, which isn't true. In fact it's more accurate to say, if I was going to default to such retarded logic, that they would have made 120% more money without the used sales. But that would imply I don't have even the most basic rudimentary knowledge of how economics work.

He's saying that there are 3 groups of people; those who buy new and keep, those who buy new and sell, and those who buy used. His point is based on the idea that those in the third group who buy used would, if they did not have that option, buy new. This results in the publisher and developer receiving a larger amount of money from the sales. The proportions and figures he used were not assertions of reality but examples used for the sake of illustrating the point.

And there are people who would buy new if buying used is not an option. For example, if my town's Gamestop didn't have a bargain bin, I certainly would have bought titles at new prices. I wouldn't have as many, but the publishers and developers would have more money in this situation.

TL;DR : You misunderstand the point that TBO is trying to make. His logic is sound and his figures are only used to illustrate the point.

Also there is no need for the vitriol you evinced in that post.

 

[BabyRaptor]

However I read post 10 by Cainx 10a and it kinda made an interesting point. By buying the game used, no money is reaching the publisher or developer so it as bad as piracy in that sense.

The game has already been paid for by the person who bought it originally. Is that not money going to the publisher?

Wrong argument is wrong. Pirating is taking something without paying for it. Buying used is simply that...Buying a game that's already been paid for and played by another being.

 

[WaruTaru]

1) If all you want to do is to play the game, download the free pirated version.
2) If you want to get it for cheap, download the free pirated version.
3) If you want to support the developers/publishers, but it new.

If you disagree, answer this: why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness. If its not worth buying new, its not worth buying at all. Save your money and do something else with it instead. And if you liked the game you downloaded? Show your support by buying the developer's next new game. By doing that, you are getting two games worth of content for the price of one new game, yes?

I disagree.

Buy it or don't touch it. No one is entitled to entertainment for free. If you want free entertainment, go take a walk in the woods.

Sure, I'll buy the cheaper, pirated version of it. Sounds good?

 

[orangeban]

1) If all you want to do is to play the game, download the free pirated version.
2) If you want to get it for cheap, download the free pirated version.
3) If you want to support the developers/publishers, but it new.

If you disagree, answer this: why buy a used game if you can download it for free? You aren't supporting the developers/publishers with your act of kindness. If its not worth buying new, its not worth buying at all. Save your money and do something else with it instead. And if you liked the game you downloaded? Show your support by buying the developer's next new game. By doing that, you are getting two games worth of content for the price of one new game, yes?

Well, I'd buy a used game because A) It's legal, pirating isn't (that's important to me, one tenet of my basic moral code is don't break the law, no matter how stupid (unless it's supressing human rights, but I won't get into that))

B) I'm supporting a legitimate business, the game retailer, why do people seem to hate giving money to game retailers so much?

C) It's cheaper, I'm shallow, what can I say?

 

[Craorach]

Honestly, it's time the entire software and IP industry was forced to comply with the same standards every other industry has.

Once someone buys a copy of something, that copy is theirs, to do anything they wish, and the company that produced it has no right to comment unless they are making another copy to give to others.

Once I buy something, I should be able to alter it, take it apart, fix it, give it to a friend, sell it, throw it in the bin, take pictures of it and post them online, anything I wish that does not mean I am making another copy of it. This should apply to every product it is possible to buy. There is no difference between a car and a video game, and should not be in the eyes of the law.

There is, in my eyes, no other acceptable solution than buy something, you own it.