A point of contraversy (part 1) - Buying a game used is as bad as pirating?

[IKWerewolf]

OK I'm trying something out here, be patient and understanding.
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When looking at forums on the articles I came across the Rage article and the reaction by the majority that this was a bad thing.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.306536-Rage-Cuts-Single-Player-When-You-Buy-It-Used

However I read post 10 by Cainx 10a and it kinda made an interesting point. By buying the game used, no money is reaching the publisher or developer so it as bad as piracy in that sense.

However does that mean we should be felling deep emotional guilt? I don't think so, we as humans always want the best deal so we always look for a way to save a bit of money; for Steam users its the sales and console users who can.

Should we blame the used games market stores? Well yes and no really. Yes for not giving some of that used game revenue back to publishers but not for the idea of providing customers what they want, games at cheaper prices.

Now for the developers and publishers, should they feel guilty? This is tougher and its dependent on one thing, the content of the DLC.

Picture this scenario, you buy the game either new or used and the moment you put it in it starts up and gives a screen with three options; "redeem code", "pay £10(dollars, etc.)" or "Cancel".

Yep in this scenario you can't play the game at all without the redeem code or forking up money, I wonder how many frisbees will be made out of the CDs? OK so the game would break the used game market as it would reduce the price making it not worth the shelf space but customers would not buy the game at all as a show of anger as they would feel ripped off (and I ask why because this is the way PC players have to play anyway?).

Now consider what Rage is doing... and its the lesser of two evils as it doesn't turn the game into a frisbee. However its the easy way out not the best. There is one thing as gamers that we can do to stop it and I'll fill you in when the time is right but feel free to guess on here.

To summarise, I disagree in part you are paying something for the game and its not your fault that money is being held by the corporate retailers who are doing something as bad as pirating... not giving money to the publishers to make the games.

In the meantime, thanks for listening and thankyou to Cainx 10a for making the original point of contraversy.

 

[SamuelT]

Help me understand this:

The publisher of the game has sold X copies to Retailer Y for price Z. Retailer Y sells the games, and gets a certain amount of those traded back because they didn't like it or whatever. After that, they prop it up in the used games section for resale at a lesser price.

Retailer Y will get a little more money out of the purchase because they don't have to throw out a game. But the amount of X copies sold, and with that the Z Price, isn't changed is it? It's not that with every single purchase a little of that money has to be put into an envelope and sent to the publisher, right? So how does selling used games hurt the publisher like piracy does?

This is not me trolling or whatever, I'm just curious if my train of logic works or not.

Edit: Yeah guys ok. No need for more quotes.

 

[Sethzard]

Personally I think the way rage is going about me is pretty sensible, blocking off a part of the game makes sense, it's the same with EA's project 10 dollar, it makes sure that some money will often get back to the devs. I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if they effectively turned their pre-owned games into frisbees unless a code was typed in, from a financial standpoint it makes sense, and it would ensure that the devs got a reasonable amount of money, it would also reduce the markup that game shops could charge.

 

[King of the Sandbox]

Help me understand this:

The publisher of the game has sold X copies to Retailer Y for price Z. Retailer Y sells the games, and gets a certain amount of those traded back because they didn't like it or whatever. After that, they prop it up in the used games section for resale at a lesser price.

Retailer Y will get a little more money out of the purchase because they don't have to throw out a game. But the amount of X copies sold, and with that the Z Price, isn't changed is it? It's not that with every single purchase a little of that money has to be put into an envelope and sent to the publisher, right? So how does selling used games hurt the publisher like piracy does?

This is not me trolling or whatever, I'm just curious if my train of logic works or not.

THIS. DEAR GOD, THIS.

Once the game is on the store shelves, the devs and pubs have their moolah. The only reason used games piss developers off is because they don't get EVEN MOAR monies unless the distributor sells out and has to buy more. They see money that second hand games places are making and want it. Plain and simple.

Piracy, however, is just as immoral as the greed of some devs.

 

[Rawne1980]

Personally I think the way rage is going about me is pretty sensible, blocking off a part of the game makes sense, it's the same with EA's project 10 dollar, it makes sure that some money will often get back to the devs. I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if they effectively turned their pre-owned games into frisbees unless a code was typed in, from a financial standpoint it makes sense, and it would ensure that the devs got a reasonable amount of money, it would also reduce the markup that game shops could charge.

Which is all well and good but still only hurts people that would otherwise buy the game second hand due to not wanting to or being able to fork out the full price.

Pirates can and will always find a way around it.

So people have a choice.

Either pay £40 for a full price game or pay fuck all for the same game and get the same content.

If they start following the Rage route then second hand will no longer be viable which will in turn make piracy look like the better option to some people.

 

[Watchmacallit]

I buy on PC...I live with the mistakes I make

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I don't blame anyone for buying used games. I blame companies like Gamestop for not giving any of the profit from used game sales to the game developers/publishers. If you ask me, they are the ones causing the issues.

 

[teebeeohh]

Help me understand this:

The publisher of the game has sold X copies to Retailer Y for price Z. Retailer Y sells the games, and gets a certain amount of those traded back because they didn't like it or whatever. After that, they prop it up in the used games section for resale at a lesser price.

Retailer Y will get a little more money out of the purchase because they don't have to throw out a game. But the amount of X copies sold, and with that the Z Price, isn't changed is it? It's not that with every single purchase a little of that money has to be put into an envelope and sent to the publisher, right? So how does selling used games hurt the publisher like piracy does?

This is not me trolling or whatever, I'm just curious if my train of logic works or not.

because if 1/2X people trade their games in and another 1/2X don't buy new games because they know they can get it cheaper used the publisher only get's money for X copies sold despite the fact that 1,5X people bought the game. Now without used sales they would get 50% more money, with used sales gamestop get's more cash.

 

[Sethzard]

Personally I think the way rage is going about me is pretty sensible, blocking off a part of the game makes sense, it's the same with EA's project 10 dollar, it makes sure that some money will often get back to the devs. I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if they effectively turned their pre-owned games into frisbees unless a code was typed in, from a financial standpoint it makes sense, and it would ensure that the devs got a reasonable amount of money, it would also reduce the markup that game shops could charge.

Which is all well and good but still only hurts people that would otherwise buy the game second hand due to not wanting to or being able to fork out the full price.

Pirates can and will always find a way around it.

So people have a choice.

Either pay £40 for a full price game or pay fuck all for the same game and get the same content.

If they start following the Rage route then second hand will no longer be viable which will in turn make piracy look like the better option to some people.

The thing is that a lot of people don't have any idea of how to pirate on consoles and the PC has no preowned market as it has DRM, and if the code is locked online then you can't pirate the code.

Personally I think the way rage is going about me is pretty sensible, blocking off a part of the game makes sense, it's the same with EA's project 10 dollar, it makes sure that some money will often get back to the devs. I'll be honest, I wouldn't mind if they effectively turned their pre-owned games into frisbees unless a code was typed in, from a financial standpoint it makes sense, and it would ensure that the devs got a reasonable amount of money, it would also reduce the markup that game shops could charge.

but most of the money doesn't go to the developers, it goes to the greedy publishers that do not do crap besides marketing the game or suppress the creativity of said developers.

But some content still does go to the developer, and something is infinitely better than nothing. Also would you prefer that the game shops got everything so that the publishers couldn't publish any more games, not all publishers squash creativity.

 

[Cenequus]

Buying a used game is not as bad... you just shouldn't get the same value as new,that's all.

 

[Anah'ya]

snip

Yes. It is. But only for one reason:

When buying a new car, you purchase the vehicle in a prime condition. When buying the car used, you get the same vehicle, and if the car has been on the road for 5 to 10 years already, its parts have been subjected to some wear and tear.

The same can be applied to any other used purchase. Clothes, shoes, furniture, you name it.

Now when you buy a game we lose the "used" bit of it. It has the exact same value as if you had purchased it new. So, how to solve this?

Do what the Publishers are doing right now. Cut the content of the game, whether with a 10 dollar online pass, by giving DLC for free with a new purchase, but require another 10 bucks for a used copy ... or by cutting the Single Player.

I say good on them.

... Don't go throwing the "But Games are not physical objects!" argument at me. This is a "last resort" argument used by people who want to defend their claim to cheap (or free) stuff with claws and teeth.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

Well, the whole logic fails hard. That would be my first point.
Same as selling/buying in a second hand shop, a used car, a used house (not building one your self), do you see any other industry QQ about the second hand market? I don't think so.

Also, buying used games does NOT hurt the gaming industry. Can you please explain me how it hurts? One of the many bad arguments is that the company has to "waste extra money for keeping servers". Well, look at the other side. If I sell my game, I stop playing. Someone other buys the game and starts playing. So that's (X-1)+1, which is still X. The number of players didn't change. They have no additional costs for "that extra players".

Also, the most obvious solution to this problem is really simple. Developers should stop making bad games and start making games that are worth keeping even if you stopped playing the game.
I still have all Zelda games and I wouldn't sell them for all the money on the world. Why you ask? Because the games are so damn good that I want to keep them. Same is for CoD 2, MoHAA and several other old school games which are worth keeping. But why should someone keep a game like CoD BO? Or any other shooter of today? Non of them are worth the space in my home.

If developers start making good games, people will be less likely to sell them, especially after just 3 days. They over hyped a game, make it look godly, but the game is shit and there is no demo to test the game out. And even if there is a demo, the demo is awful and they say the game has MUCH MORE, even though it does NOT. So yeah, people buying those games deserve a full money refund, but since that's not possible, they sell their used games.


tl.dr.

1. Every industry in the world has a second hand market. Why is the gaming industry the only one which is crying and making a big deal about it?
2. The whole logic is flawed. The number of gamers is still the same. The developers don't have any additional costs for those used copies. People who buy a used game most likely wouldn't buy a new game.
3. The developer should start fixing the problem on their side. Once the game is worth keeping, the number of resold games would fall drastically. Only then they can think about adding a coupon for multiplayer and request a payment if you don't have it.

 

[Xaryn Mar]

snip

Yes. It is. But only for one reason:

When buying a new car, you purchase the vehicle in a prime condition. When buying the car used, you get the same vehicle, and if the car has been on the road for 5 to 10 years already, its parts have been subjected to some wear and tear.

The same can be applied to any other used purchase. Clothes, shoes, furniture, you name it.

Now when you buy a game we lose the "used" bit of it. It has the exact same value as if you had purchased it new. So, how to solve this?

Do what the Publishers are doing right now. Cut the content of the game, whether with a 10 dollar online pass, by giving DLC for free with a new purchase, but require another 10 bucks for a used copy ... or by cutting the Single Player.

I say good on them.

... Don't go throwing the "But Games are not physical objects!" argument at me. This is a "last resort" argument used by people who want to defend their claim to cheap (or free) stuff with claws and teeth.

Actually the discs will not be in the same condition as when new since every time they are used they will be slightly scratched. Add to that the fact that the data will deteroriate over time it is only fair that used are sold cheaper, just like any other used goods.

 

[Horizontalvertigo]

Is buying a used game as bad as piracy? To answer that you have to look at the ethics of both. By buying a used game you are purchasing an item from a business who's entire purpose in being is to sell those items, both new and used. You give your money to the business and you get your item. If you obtain that item through theft, in this instance, known as piracy, then that is morally and ethically wrong, because you aren't giving fair due to those who deserve it. That's it. To equate buying a used game to piracy you have to equate legally buying an item to stealing it, mutually exclusive concepts. You cannot steal that which you have legally obtained. That's a fallacy.

To steal something someone must have unfairly lost in the transaction, unfairly lost meanining in this example, taken and used without permission. (Permission granted by buying the item.) This is the point where people say: "But, ah! What about the publishers? They lose out on that sale percentage from used sales! Isn't that theft?" To which I have to say: "How?"

For used games to exist, they have to have been bought and resold to the distrubitor. So unless I've missed something, and if I have then I apologise but as far as I can make out, there can never be more second hand copies than there are copies bought brand new! So they're complaining not about lost sales, because they've already sold that item once already, they're complaining on losing out the second time it's sold. You can't lose sales from pre-owned games, because someone would have already have to have bought that game for it to have been pre owned!

So how can buying a pre-owned game be as bad as pirating? Sorry, had to have a bit of a rant.

 

[Zhukov]

So... who here has ever borrowed a book from a library or rented a DVD?

Just saying.

 

[Olrod]

Why should there be one rule for games and another for, say, absolutely everything else ever that can be sold as a second-hand item?

Books, cars, clothing, DVDs, houses, etc.