A question about Mass Effect 3's ending (spoiler alert)

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IronMit

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I remember people were tweeting these questions to people on the BW team during Ending-Gate;

I can't remember who but they replied something along the lines of 'Those characters you are asking about could of escaped in shuttles when they saw the reapers coming' & 'parts of the citadel wards can still be shielded you know'

Basically 'lots of speculation for everyone'
 

mfeff

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As best as I am able to "figure" after many discussions... the game was structured as a series of modules and casually connected together towards the end of the development phase. This is not an uncommon practice in pipeline product development. Considering the Geth and the Krogan story lines are quite polished indicates to me that those where done very early in the development stage (that had to be "right" to justify previous game decision tree flags).

To my knowledge (google.com) some of the key folks that worked on the original 2 titles where otherwise tied up with Star Wars and the rumor is that "if they had an ending in mind, they didn't share it".

That all said I find it likely that the ending as well as the "kid" and perhaps some elements of the crucible where rather late entries into the composition, cobbled together with string and prayer, passed along to the animators to finish up with some CGI. How much of that influenced the launch trailer, and or how much the launch trailer influenced those decisions may not ever be made known.



This inevitably created the plot holes and disconnect of the story progression, messed up the pacing, and crippled the work.

To wax a little philosophical the first game is structured around an old concept brought forward by Thomas Hobbes and his work "leviathan" and the response of the "self made man" of post modernism. This theme is all but lifted from other works of science fiction such as Babylon 5, which also features a space station as the narrative hub as well as massively powerful alien opponents as well as "ancients".

It's really common in SciFy, but I think B5 was clearly a strong reference source.

Dark energy was considered to be part n' parcel of the Reapers agenda, that is, that the universe was "disappearing" leaving more "dark energy" in it's place... and they were both attempting to solve the problem of terminal existence and or act as the force that "mitigated" the self destructive nature of life proper.

Dark Energy was also the McGuffin to explain the biotics and supernatural powers. Essentially it is whatever you need it to be to explain away anything that comes up in continuity.

The Reapers get an out as far as being a big bad if they are used to rationalize dark energy (this is also similar to Babylon 5 and it's use of psychics) it essentially leaves the door open to Reapers being redeemable. Cerberus is also parallel to an earth force known as Psy-Corp within the Babylon 5 universe.



They have government connections and heavy military gear, although ultimately they are revealed as puppets of the "Shadows", and are eventually brought back to the "right" side in the final showdown.

Debate-ably redemption is a reoccurring theme of the series. One explored in the second game to great lengths with the dirty dozen or seven samurai motifs.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Redemption

Mac Walters is a comic book writer I suppose.

The second game does not do a lot for the overall trilogy as far as setting up any ending, but it does flesh out many character narratives and through reflecting upon their personal stories a much richer tapestry of the world comes out.

It does set up the Geth and Krogan arcs, which for my money, are the only things in the third game worth 2 pennies.

Lastly the third game... I could drone on and on about everything that is wrong here, suffice to say that there is some major congestion which tells me that multiple people where "chipping in" their thoughts. No one was really at the helm which seems supported by Hudson himself basically authorizing any retcon anyone wanted to offer.

Missing staff, the online component, a less experienced staff, a new engine, and some strange direction choices which seem more a part of marketing decisions than it does critical design or creative decisions painted the product into the corner from which the only escape was "ninja magic smoke bomb god'did'it."

For me there where major problems with some of the game, mechanically. I wasn't sure what the visual language was trying to imply, and the aural aspects where heavily lifted from the previous titles. It all had a very copy-paste feel to it. Likely due to the new engine needing to be in place for the mulitplayer elements to function (they are likely off the shelf and required little internal development).



The ending of Babylon 5's story arc at the end of the Shadow War explores the same themes, essentially doing what ME3 failed to deliver upon; strength to soldier on forged through unification and acceptance of diversity.

As far as the fates of the people on the station?

Make something up, it's what Bioware did. Your answer is as valid as theirs and twice as thought out.

 

Austin Manning

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viranimus said:
It is explained. Its just people do not understand what it is they are experiencing. The answer is incredibly simple, but you have to look at things through a figurative perspective rather than taking everything literally. There is a very specific reason why no one is on the citadel. Why the citadel is not wrecked. Why you encounter a whole area of it no one is familiar with, and how various people are there along with you such as Anderson and TIM

With as blatant as it has been thru the entire series it astounds me I have yet to encounter anyone who has even come close to broaching its intended meaning.
Is this about the Indoctrination Theory? If it is, then let me refute it for you:

A. If your effective military strength is not high enough, Destroy is your only option (that kind of neuters the whole theory right there).

B. If it is correct and the entire ending is a coma dream, then the game never actually ends. Or it does, with Shepard lying bleeding an broken in war-torn London while the Reapers wipe out all space faring civilizations because the Crucible couldn't dock.

And that is just off the top of my head. I can come up with more reasons if I think about it.

Now if I missed your point (and just made a massive strawman argument) then I apologize and ask that you elaborate on what was so blatant that everyone else could not see.
 

viranimus

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Austin Manning said:
viranimus said:
It is explained. Its just people do not understand what it is they are experiencing. The answer is incredibly simple, but you have to look at things through a figurative perspective rather than taking everything literally. There is a very specific reason why no one is on the citadel. Why the citadel is not wrecked. Why you encounter a whole area of it no one is familiar with, and how various people are there along with you such as Anderson and TIM

With as blatant as it has been thru the entire series it astounds me I have yet to encounter anyone who has even come close to broaching its intended meaning.
Is this about the Indoctrination Theory? If it is, then let me refute it for you:

A. If your effective military strength is not high enough, Destroy is your only option (that kind of neuters the whole theory right there).

B. If it is correct and the entire ending is a coma dream, then the game never actually ends. Or it does, with Shepard lying bleeding an broken in war-torn London while the Reapers wipe out all space faring civilizations because the Crucible couldn't dock.

And that is just off the top of my head. I can come up with more reasons if I think about it.

Now if I missed your point (and just made a massive strawman argument) then I apologize and ask that you elaborate on what was so blatant that everyone else could not see.
Although indoctrination theory plays a small part of it as do all of the individual endings as well as the way it is reinforced by EC, the true meaning is far far more grandiose than just IT
 

The Ubermensch

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IronMit said:
I remember people were tweeting these questions to people on the BW team during Ending-Gate;

I can't remember who but they replied something along the lines of 'Those characters you are asking about could of escaped in shuttles when they saw the reapers coming' & 'parts of the citadel wards can still be shielded you know'

Basically 'lots of speculation for everyone'
In retrosepct they were going for a Gainax ending; and they pulled it off but it didn't if with the rest of the game. They should have also known that if you do a Gainax ending you piss a lot of your fans off.

If its okay with you I'll explain what happens if you pick synthesis


Ah; Komm Susser Todd, you fix everything

As you can see; as the Lance of Longinius enters Liliths head vagina eyeball thing; that's a metaphor for how much up their own ass the Bioware writing staff were.
 

Goofguy

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Food for thought, anyone think the Citadel DLC will do anything to give some closure on this subject? Sure, it's about Shepard getting caught up in some controversy on the Citadel and faffing about catching up with old squadmates and friends but do you think we'll get some extra Citadel cutscenes for the end battle?

For the record, I don't care much about ME3 anymore and I don't know if I'll be playing its last DLC. I was merely pondering as to what Bioware has in store for its last bit of single player content.
 

acey195

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This very question was actually asked directly to the devs during Pax 2012 during their conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=m8BSg9KIe0k#t=2656s

in short: most likely there would have been casualties, but there would be survivors, especially with the control ending, where it is less damaged ;)
 

Zetatrain

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Austin Manning said:
It just seems kind of weird that so many characters (of varying importance) would just drop of the map like that. Though I suppose it could just be another loose plot thread like why the Reapers brought the Citadel to Earth in the first place instead of sending it into dark space for the remainder of the harvesting.
How would they be able to send the Citadel into dark space? Its my understanding that the Citadel is the only mass relay to leads into dark space and I don't think mass relays can teleport themselves.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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There's no solid answer (which is a problem). However, we can make an educated guess of there being at least a few survivors. When the Reapers take the Citadel, there only immediate concern is moving it to a safer location, rather than taking the time to systematically harvest everybody on it. My guess is, they entered the system in force, smashed the defending Citadel fleet, took out strategic positions for mounting a defense on the station itself (C-Sec HQ, any ground-based artillery etc.) and then proceeded straight away to move it without bothering about anything else. Casualties in areas specifically targeted would be extreme, but otherwise there may not have been that many at first.

Obviously, casualties on the Citadel will be far greater in the Destroy and Synthesis endings, due to the station breaking apart. However, we don't know just how advanced the life-support on the station is. I'm guessing for something that size there's no one system that, if it loses connection, kills everything on the station. More likely, life-support is more localised, so it's plausible that even on the fragmented pieces of the station, many people could still survive at least long enough to be evacuated.

So, I don't think everyone died. In fact, it's possible that, especially for the Control ending, casualties on the station itself could have been relatively low.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Zetatrain said:
Austin Manning said:
It just seems kind of weird that so many characters (of varying importance) would just drop of the map like that. Though I suppose it could just be another loose plot thread like why the Reapers brought the Citadel to Earth in the first place instead of sending it into dark space for the remainder of the harvesting.
How would they be able to send the Citadel into dark space? Its my understanding that the Citadel is the only mass relay to leads into dark space and I don't think mass relays can teleport themselves.
Not to mention, the other function of the Citadel is that it's the main 'factory' for processing organics into Reapers during the harvest. A function it wouldn't be able to perform from several million light years away.
 

PissOffRoth

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Remember this part of the game, right when you teleport up to the Citadel?



That mess is what happened to the people on the Citadel. Maybe a few resourceful people got away, but I'm betting most of them are corpses in hallways.
 

Austin Manning

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viranimus said:
Although indoctrination theory plays a small part of it as do all of the individual endings as well as the way it is reinforced by EC, the true meaning is far far more grandiose than just IT
While I don't see how the extended cut reinforces the indoctrination theory (if anything it tears it apart more effectively than I did) that is a discussion for another time. Would you care to elaborate on this far more grandiose interpretation of Mass Effect's plot, or are you merely trolling?
 

Austin Manning

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PissOffRoth said:
Remember this part of the game, right when you teleport up to the Citadel?



That mess is what happened to the people on the Citadel. Maybe a few resourceful people got away, but I'm betting most of them are corpses in hallways.
I always got the feeling that those corpses (though the ones pictured are Cerberus for some reason) were the people brought up through the beam from Earth, not the previous inhabitants of the Citadel.
 

Austin Manning

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Zetatrain said:
How would they be able to send the Citadel into dark space? Its my understanding that the Citadel is the only mass relay to leads into dark space and I don't think mass relays can teleport themselves.
The Reapers could just physically move it there without a relay, 3 establishes that they don't need a relay to enter or leave the galaxy. Even, for arguments sake, if they can't they could still send it someplace the armada and Crucible couldn't reach, like the Omega 4 relay or some unexplored part of the galaxy. Heck they could have just moved it to a system, destroyed the nearest relay and repaired the damage after they'd finished harvesting everyone.
 

Austin Manning

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NinjaDeathSlap said:
Not to mention, the other function of the Citadel is that it's the main 'factory' for processing organics into Reapers during the harvest. A function it wouldn't be able to perform from several million light years away.
I'm not sure if they really need the Citadel for that though. The Collectors didn't seem to have any trouble processing organics into Reapers from their base.
 

bug_of_war

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I actually prefer not knowing what happened. I think that the mystery is always better than saying, "Oh no! this is what happened to them" because then it just makes me feel less a part of the game and more a wikipedia editor. I don't need to know what happens to everyone, all I need to know is what my job is, and if I survived, maybe I would like to hear how they dealt with the situation, but I died and that's the end of my story, I've done my job and now it's time for everybody else to move along.

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up on this website, or at least I haven't seen this come up on here. Ah well, good to see a legit question that has come out due to curiosity rather than argument.
 

viranimus

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Austin Manning said:
viranimus said:
Although indoctrination theory plays a small part of it as do all of the individual endings as well as the way it is reinforced by EC, the true meaning is far far more grandiose than just IT
While I don't see how the extended cut reinforces the indoctrination theory (if anything it tears it apart more effectively than I did) that is a discussion for another time. Would you care to elaborate on this far more grandiose interpretation of Mass Effect's plot, or are you merely trolling?
Ill reiderate, IT is only a minor part of it, just as much as RBG are their own respective parts of it.

As for elaboration, No. I would not. Part of the joy of the ME3 ending is being able to see clearly what sooooo many other people continue to be completely oblivious to despite it being repeatedly beaten into their heads over the course of three games. As for trolling, No. I might derive a bit of perverse satisfaction of being slightly ahead of the curve on this. However Me stating there is something everyone is missing isnt some incendiary statement meant to provoke response. If anything It is intended to provoke thought. To get the players thinking "What could I have possibly missed" It would be wrong of my to just blurt it out at this point given how many have yet to grasp it. Its a matter of finding ones personal truth in it and to tell you would deprive you of it. If you want to see it, you must first abandon your personal biases of the story. Try to figure out the story THEY are trying to tell you. Accept they are telling you something you do not want to consider. Stop trying to rationalize it in a literal sense and see it in a figurative and metaphorical sense. The answer is there and the joy of it is discovering it.

Im sure you will continue to see this as a trollish answer, but that is the furthest thing from the truth. I would love to see more people resolve it, but that so few have is part of the beauty and eloquence of it all. I cant make you see the seriousness in my statements, but I hope it would at least challenge you to consider it.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Austin Manning said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
Not to mention, the other function of the Citadel is that it's the main 'factory' for processing organics into Reapers during the harvest. A function it wouldn't be able to perform from several million light years away.
I'm not sure if they really need the Citadel for that though. The Collectors didn't seem to have any trouble processing organics into Reapers from their base.
Well, the Citadel and the Collector Base are the two biggest single structures you encounter in the ME trilogy, and we have no idea if The Collector base would have been big enough to fully complete a Capital Class Reaper on its own, and the Citadel is the only place with Keepers on it to help out with the process. They may well not strictly need it, but even so the efficiency of their operation would be severely diminished without it.
 

knight steel

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Internet:
Thus saith the Lord:
Since you refuse to give me answers and ending
All through the gaming industry...

I send a pestilence and plague
Into your house, into your bed
Into your streams, into your streets
Into your drink, into your bread
Upon your console, on your computer
Upon your accounts in your life
Into your dreams, into your sleep
Until you break, until you yield
I send the swarm, I send the horde
Thus saith the Lord

Fan:
Once I called you friend
Once I thought the chance
to give you money
Was all I ever wanted...

Internet:
I send the thunder from the sky
I send the fire raining down

Fan:
And even now I wish that God
had chose another
Serving as your foe on his behalf
Is the last thing that I wanted...

Internet:
I send a hail of burning ice
On ev'ry field, on ev'ry town

Fan:
This was my adventure
All this pain and devastation
How it tortures me inside
All the innocent who suffer
From your stubbornness and pride...

Internet:
I send the locusts on a wind
Such as the world has never seen
On ev'ry leaf, on ev'ry stalk
Until there's nothing left of green
I send my scourge, I send my sword
Thus saith the Lord!

Fan:
You who i called my friend
Why must you call down another blow?

Internet:
I send my scourge, I send my sword

fan:
Give me my answers and ending

Fan and internet:
Thus saith the Lord

creators:
You who I called customer
How could you have come to hate me so?
Is this what you wanted?

Internet:
I send the swarm, I send the horde...

Creator:
Then let my heart be hardened
And never mind how high the cost may grow
This will still be so:
I will never give you your answer's and ending's...

Internet:
Thus saith the Lord:

Fan:
Thus saith the Lord:

Creator:
I will not...

[fan, creator, and internet]
give your (my) answers and ending!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=UB7Y2qOQ_3k